UFC 185 was awesome, let's talk about it

[clashnat]

Overeem lacks defense? Did you see him get pressed against the cage and just block a barrage of punches without getting hurt? Chin. Overeem lacks chin

Personally I dislike it when the lack of ability to take a punch is explained with a glass chin. I still look for a better explanation why Ken Norton performed so poorly against heavy punchers.
Yes, there are iron chins out there, but often it has to do with ability - often a fighter midjudges the distance and keeps his chin high (good example Donaire knocks down Rigo).

Others explain it with a lack of heart - Roy Jones Jr. said that with Wladimir (right after the Brewster knockout) the issue is related to his lack of heart rather than a glass chin. May be true, but Wladimir absolutely threw too many punches, ran out of gas and couldn't mainstain his line of defense.

With Alistair, I think he obviously has work to do in the boxing department. I don't think getting pressed against the cage and covering up is a good idea. He'd get knocked out against Dos Santos imo.

 

[a guy]

Hendricks vs Brown wasn stirkers vs grappler since Hendricsk is one of the better/best strikers at WW as well that's also why he won his striking was good enough to match Brown's and his wrestling was 10 times better and combined it made for a pretty sure victory for him.

It's obviously not a pure striker vs grappler matchup, that doesn't exist, but it played out very similarly to one. The point is that Hendricks/Brown and Joanna/Esparza are great contrasts in how a striker shouldn't/should fight a superior wrestler. Matt Brown made tons of mistakes from his striking to his work off his back. Joanna was nearly perfect.

@ a guy Overeem will never have a sharp jab his boxing has always been his weakness even though it got better during his K-1 days it was always basic. And I don't like his new style not only is it less exciting but Overeem doesn't have the cardio nor chin to do that outfighting style for 5 rounds again any elite HW even Nelson hurt him badly at the end and hit him with a big right earlier in the fight.

I don't get why Overeem changed his style for MMA. Well it#s the style he started with in MMA but he shouldn't fight that way.
With his Dutch style he beat Werdum in Strikeforce and while Werdum has improved even since then he had already become a decent striker at the time and Overeem won despite the fight being ugly and now Werdum is interim champ. Then he left Golden Glory and changed his style for no apparent reason and got knocked out by Bigfoot, changed back to his Dutch style demolished Browne but paced himself badly (not the fault of the Dutch style) and changed back to his MMA style beating Mir but not via stoppage losing to Rothwell and beating Struve but not on the feet.

Overeem fights like he is scared on the feet vs any decent striker the guy won the K-1 GP and his confidence and chin are both shot

I know he won't have a sharp jab, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have one. That's my point.

Why did Overeem change styles? Well, the dude's been knocked out 9 times. He was knocked out by light heavyweights and by heavyweights. He has notoriously bad cardio and has been struggling to find what works for him against elite opposition. Maybe this will be it when he refines it, maybe not.

 

[a guy]

he was even though it was in the last minute of the fight and when he did it he dropped Overeem. Overeem doesn't have the chin, the stamina nor the general boxing ability to pull off that outfighting style it's painful to watch his confidence and in ring demenour reminds me of David Price since he got stopped by Thompson twice

I know that, but I meant throw the left hand in the specific situation that was being discussed. Waiting 3 rounds to throw a punch that was there all night in a ton of different positions is pretty dumb.

 

[PivotPunch]

In my opinion Pettis vs Dos Anjos was how you shouldn't fight a wrestler (or pressure fighter) even though Pettis also got outstrock.

His footwork is horrible beside his disadvantage at wrestling to elite LWs his footwork is also bad he gets backed up against the cage really easily and has no lateral mvoement he's just as bad as JDS in that regard.

Guida exploited his alck of footwork and wrestling, Melendes did and Dos Anjos did what
Melendes did but better and more disciplined.
After the Melendes fight I said that i wouldn't be surpised if Melendes wins a rematch and I wasn't egtting the hype of pettis because to me he looked meh up to the stoppage and wa starting to gas and the fight would have probably looked similar to the Dos Anjos fight had Pettis not managed to stop melendes in the 2nd round it was really a last minute effort before pettis wouldn't have been able to put up any offence.


Brown's issue was simply that he is strong in the clinch and going forward he can't fight any other way but to close the distance and Hendricks allthough not because of MT is super strong in the clinch himself, he has better boxing than brown and he is a much better wrestler.
Brown had no other way to fight than to run into the fire and he did pretty well considering that he would have done better in a 5 round fight he looked similar to Condit vs Hendricks.
brown had no chance but to land the perfect shot and finish Hendricks to begin with but Hendricks has a pretty good chin so that's easier said than done brown could only win via stoppage because in terms of styles he was at a huge disadvantage

 

[facePuncher7]

I read the PBP but besides that all I know is that I missed a $30k bet by one fight, again.

 

[Sano]

he was even though it was in the last minute of the fight and when he did it he dropped Overeem. Overeem doesn't have the chin, the stamina nor the general boxing ability to pull off that outfighting style it's painful to watch his confidence and in ring demenour reminds me of David Price since he got stopped by Thompson twice

I don't know man. It seems that if he can't finish or intimidate someone right off the bat, he struggles. Everytime he is in the pocket he either shells up or gets tagged. Look at it this way, what are his best attributes?

I really think that creating distance, blasting those amazing kicks of his and closing the distance with those brutal knees might be his best bet. Stay long, throw kicks, close the distance clinch up and get out of there. Rinse and repeat. Maybe even work for takedowns? He definitely needed to change something, and he can still stop guys like that. He doesn't have to be frantic about it either.

Remember, besides the confidence issue, a lot of it has to do with the steriod use as well. He is not Ubereem anymore.

 

[INTERL0PER]

Damn, this a great thread. Good back n forth analysis and discussion.

I wish Sherdog was always like this.

 

[a guy]

In my opinion Pettis vs Dos Anjos was how you shouldn't fight a wrestler (or pressure fighter) even though Pettis also got outstrock.

His footwork is horrible beside his disadvantage at wrestling to elite LWs his footwork is also bad he gets backed up against the cage really easily and has no lateral mvoement he's just as bad as JDS in that regard.

Guida exploited his alck of footwork and wrestling, Melendes did and Dos Anjos did what
Melendes did but better and more disciplined.
After the Melendes fight I said that i wouldn't be surpised if Melendes wins a rematch and I wasn't egtting the hype of pettis because to me he looked meh up to the stoppage and wa starting to gas and the fight would have probably looked similar to the Dos Anjos fight had Pettis not managed to stop melendes in the 2nd round it was really a last minute effort before pettis wouldn't have been able to put up any offence.

The problem with Pettis is that he WANTS to be able to defend TDs on the cage. He's not just ending up there because he has bad footwork, he actually angles well. When guys shoot on him, he prefers to defend against the cage rather than in open space. And it worked for him before, he was able to defend fine against Gil and Bendo there. JDS doesn't set traps when he moves back, and he doesn't like to clinch against the cage so that comparison isn't as good. JDS gets forced there, Pettis knows he's there and tries to use it strategically. I also don't know about Melendez beating him. Melendez leaves too many openings coming forward and Pettis is always dangerous, even late in the fight. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pettis finish him again in a rematch. Gil tried to make the fight too ugly, RDA made it ugly for Pettis.

Brown's issue was simply that he is strong in the clinch and going forward he can't fight any other way but to close the distance and Hendricks allthough not because of MT is super strong in the clinch himself, he has better boxing than brown and he is a much better wrestler.
Brown had no other way to fight than to run into the fire and he did pretty well considering that he would have done better in a 5 round fight he looked similar to Condit vs Hendricks.
brown had no chance but to land the perfect shot and finish Hendricks to begin with but Hendricks has a pretty good chin so that's easier said than done brown could only win via stoppage because in terms of styles he was at a huge disadvantage

There are a lot of things Brown could have done to keep the fight on the feet. Especially on defense, he always breaks his own posture when he's being attacked. He let Hendricks drive him back too easily. Going forward, he wasn't picking shots very well. He started off well doing things like throwing his right straight then feinting it and kicking Hendricks in the head, but after getting pushed back and taken down he wasn't looking to make Hendricks react then capitalize intelligently. He tried to enter the clinch like he had no idea that Hendricks is disgustingly strong with an underhook. He made so many technical mistakes defending the TDs against the cage and trying to get back to his feet. It was a pretty bad performance by Brown except for a few moments. Very disappointing. I mean I wasn't expecting him to outwrestle Hendricks or do well when Hendricks attacked him (look how he reacted to Lawler's punches), but I thought he'd at least be able to get some smart, violent offense going on the feet.

 

[Steve08]

I would try to contribute meaningfully to the discussion, but today, I'm just really bummed that Pettis got fucked up badly.

=(

 

[a guy]

I would try to contribute meaningfully to the discussion, but today, I'm just really bummed that Pettis got fucked up badly.

=(

Ha, I'd feel the same way if I wasn't so damn impressed by RDA.

 

[a guy]

I don't know man. It seems that if he can't finish or intimidate someone right off the bat, he struggles. Everytime he is in the pocket he either shells up or gets tagged. Look at it this way, what are his best attributes?

I really think that creating distance, blasting those amazing kicks of his and closing the distance with those brutal knees might be his best bet. Stay long, throw kicks, close the distance clinch up and get out of there. Rinse and repeat. Maybe even work for takedowns? He definitely needed to change something, and he can still stop guys like that. He doesn't have to be frantic about it either.

Remember, besides the confidence issue, a lot of it has to do with the steriod use as well. He is not Ubereem anymore.

Well said.

 

[Borass]

I rewatched Pettis vs Dos Anjos... I really couldn t imagine how is it possible to maintain such rythm and pressure during 25 minutes. Even at the end of the fight, he was still explosive. I feel upset...

 

[a guy]

Damn, this a great thread. Good back n forth analysis and discussion.

I wish Sherdog was always like this.

Thanks!

It would be nice haha.

 

[Sano]

Well said.

Thanks man. I think we have the same idea regarding Overeem. At least it is understandable that he and his camp are trying to switch things up a bit. He is the kind of fighter that has very clear strenghts and very clear weaknesses.

I think it's safe to say that Overeeem will never be a defensive wizard, so why not try to change his style to suit his strenghts instead? It might work. He still has great power.

 

[MidNightClub]

I don't get why Overeem changed his style for MMA. Well it#s the style he started with in MMA but he shouldn't fight that way.
With his Dutch style he beat Werdum in Strikeforce and while Werdum has improved even since then he had already become a decent striker at the time and Overeem won despite the fight being ugly and now Werdum is interim champ. Then he left Golden Glory and changed his style for no apparent reason and got knocked out by Bigfoot, changed back to his Dutch style demolished Browne but paced himself badly (not the fault of the Dutch style) and changed back to his MMA style beating Mir but not via stoppage losing to Rothwell and beating Struve but not on the feet.

Overeem fights like he is scared on the feet vs any decent striker the guy won the K-1 GP and his confidence and chin are both shot

yea back when overeem was in k-1 was way more technical and had a much tighter defense. the horse meat k-1 overeem would of countered roy when he was up against the cage instead of just sitting there with a high guard then running away

he has adopted that outside coasting playing safe style that a lot of jackson fighters have but when he was in k-1 he used to sit in the pocket with a tight ass guard and throw single bombs. at least he started using his knees again though which has always been his best weapon

 

[Azam]

I don't think it matters if dos Anjos was on anything. I mean, Pettis was in there with him the whole time too. He was getting beaten up and worked, but still throwing back the entire time. And there was still some venom in his kicks even in the late rounds. What's he on that let him do that? The only fighter who I'm nearly positive never used anything is BJ Penn, and that's just because of his notoriously poor work ethic. Beyond that, it's part of the game. It's part of all high level sports, and I personally don't care who gets busted and who doesn't. To me, failing a drug test is more indicative of poor planning and discipline than anything else.

Besides, when has RDA's cardio ever looked bad? It's not like he went from gassing in round 1 to that pace for 5 rounds. He was calm, composed and in control the whole fight. That makes it less taxing. His movements were economical, his techniques efficient and his pace calculated. I don't care if he tested positive for every drug on the market after that performance (especially considering a torn MCL), it doesn't take away from the technical and strategic mastery that was on display.

I'm not sure how much Pettis' style is what kept getting him injured. His camp has the highest injury rate of all the top camps--I think the number was guys from that gym pulling out of around 16-17 percent of their fights. That has way more to do with it than him being more competition than martial arts based in my opinion. I mean, remember all the accusations against that camp recently?

Overeem/Hunt was exactly amazing technically, but I thought it was very entertaining. Both guys had some good moments, Nelson showed why he's awesome and why he loses to the top guys, Overeem got to work his style against a very dangerous opponent and fans got a solid fight.

I'm not sure about that.....maybe a difference in opinion. But as far as I'm concerned if you have to cheat to be the best at something - you don't really love what you do nor should you be doing it.

The whole point of competition or martial arts for that matter is to test yourself and be the best you can be, not rely on substances to beat other people or to get an edge. I think it's important as martial artists and even MMA fans to not just accept it when fighters are taking steroids/PEDs or any other substance to get to the top - rather than not caring.

I'm genuinely surprised it doesn't matter to you aguy - as a martial artist I'd thought you of all people, who loves the sport (with all your great breakdowns) - would want to see great fights between two skilled fighters relying entirely on their own ability and nothing else.

If you do whatever it takes to win - you ruin the heart of the game and you have no place playing the game to begin with. If someone takes substances what will be the next thing to get an edge - you follow that spiral and the heart of the contest/game gets destroyed. People with those attitudes don't love what they do imho - because if you truly loved it you wouldn't want to destroy it for others or ruin it with your selfishness.

If I'm honest it's starting to put me off MMA - I'm not as into it as I use to be and part of the reason is what I'm likely seeing is one roided up guy fighting another roided up guy (they've managed to taper off well & manage it throughout camp) - it's beginning to make me realise that MMA is comprised of fighters, competitors and very few martial artists - and there is a difference between all of those. I want to see someone's effort manifest - not someone who's augmented their effort with some substance - that's not effort.

If you were a mathematician would you appreciate someone using a calculator to do a non-calculator maths test? Someone who'd stoop so low obviously wouldn't love maths that much but wants a good result. The analogy is similar to are MMA scenario - only the someone who wants a good result or to win (and does whatever it takes - even break the rules) is what a competitor would do - not someone who loves MMA or martial arts.


As for the Dos Anjos comment - I'm not going to name names but I know of a martial artist who's been training stand-up well over a decade (maybe 15 years) and has been competing just as long (probably has had well over a hundred fights if you add it all up) - high level competitor who competes in a sport where cardio/output is what gets you through - even he wouldn't be able to maintain that kind of pace with that kind of strength/explosiveness that Dos Anjos did in this fight.

Of course it looks fishy....anyone who's ever trained knows how difficult it is to maintain that kind of power/pace for 25mins - especially making those improvements in such a short amount of time....

Did he beat Pettis - sure, good on him. It doesn't excuse anything else though does it.




When I was referring to Pettis - I'm talking about how his style is less catered for martial arts and more for one off competition - it's inconsistent and unreliable. Any style that's consistent should leave you in a state that you can fight wherever and whenever - Pettis style on the other hand leaves him injured a lot. Maybe it's a result of the training at his camp - who knows but it seems more indicative of the way he actually fights & less to do with the camp. But who knows....maybe you're right.

 

[a guy]

I'm not sure about that.....maybe a difference in opinion. But as far as I'm concerned if you have to cheat to be the best at something - you don't really love what you do nor should you be doing it.

The whole point of competition or martial arts for that matter is to test yourself and be the best you can be, not rely on substances to beat other people or to get an edge. I think it's important as martial artists and even MMA fans to not just accept it when fighters are taking steroids/PEDs or any other substance to get to the top - rather than not caring.

I'm genuinely surprised it doesn't matter to you aguy - as a martial artist I'd thought you of all people, who loves the sport (with all your great breakdowns) - would want to see great fights between two skilled fighters relying entirely on their own ability and nothing else.

If you do whatever it takes to win - you ruin the heart of the game and you have no place playing the game to begin with. If someone takes substances what will be the next thing to get an edge - you follow that spiral and the heart of the contest/game gets destroyed. People with those attitudes don't love what they do imho - because if you truly loved it you wouldn't want to destroy it for others or ruin it with your selfishness.

If I'm honest it's starting to put me off MMA - I'm not as into it as I use to be and part of the reason is what I'm likely seeing is one roided up guy fighting another roided up guy (they've managed to taper off well & manage it throughout camp) - it's beginning to make me realise that MMA is comprised of fighters, competitors and very few martial artists - and there is a difference between all of those. I want to see someone's effort manifest - not someone who's augmented their effort with some substance - that's not effort.

If you were a mathematician would you appreciate someone using a calculator to do a non-calculator maths test? Someone who'd stoop so low obviously wouldn't love maths that much but wants a good result. The analogy is similar to are MMA scenario - only the someone who wants a good result or to win (and does whatever it takes - even break the rules) is what a competitor would do - not someone who loves MMA or martial arts.


As for the Dos Anjos comment - I'm not going to name names but I know of a martial artist who's been training stand-up well over a decade (maybe 15 years) and has been competing just as long (probably has had well over a hundred fights if you add it all up) - high level competitor who competes in a sport where cardio/output is what gets you through - even he wouldn't be able to maintain that kind of pace with that kind of strength/explosiveness that Dos Anjos did in this fight.

Of course it looks fishy....anyone who's ever trained knows how difficult it is to maintain that kind of power/pace for 25mins - especially making those improvements in such a short amount of time....

Did he beat Pettis - sure, good on him. It doesn't excuse anything else though does it.




When I was referring to Pettis - I'm talking about how his style is less catered for martial arts and more for one off competition - it's inconsistent and unreliable. Any style that's consistent should leave you in a state that you can fight wherever and whenever - Pettis style on the other hand leaves him injured a lot. Maybe it's a result of the training at his camp - who knows but it seems more indicative of the way he actually fights & less to do with the camp. But who knows....maybe you're right.

It's not that I like PEDs, it's that I've accepted their prevalence. It doesn't matter what sport we're talking about, people are cheating. I'm sure there are exceptions, but it doesn't ever surprise me when someone gets busted. Not even when Silva did. I won't judge someone for it. Every fighter ever asked about the problem says most guys are on something. Every coach says that only their fighters are clean. I think it's obvious what's really going on.

I don't think there's any sport where guys aren't looking to get an edge. I don't personally like it. Hell, I don't even like all the pre workout every gym bro takes. But I accept it, because I know that these are just people trying to give their all. People who are under a ton of pressure every day and who need to be performing at a high level constantly.

Now I think a lot of people train too hard. I think with more intelligent training and nutrition, the rate of injuries could be reduced significantly--and so could the need for PEDs. But I don't think they'll ever go away. So for now, I've come to terms with them.

I see what you're saying. He has a very athletic style that definitely puts stress on his body. But a lot of people do, and he's still young and in great shape. That's what makes me think it's something with the gym. I'm sure that with smarter training, he'd stay healthier. It's definitely a combination of both factors though, to what extent each is a problem who knows!

 

[roventu]

his defense was bad, it just so happens it worked against Roy Nelson.

1. High guard without moving. He literally turtled up against the cage and just stared back at Nelson until he stopped punching, in which case only then he began to circle out. there was a point that they were just looking at each other. Nelson had free reign on the body but he kept knocking around the guard looking for an opening for right hand lol against some that can string together 3,4,5 punch combinations that wont work

2. Turn back to opponent and run. This wouldnt work against anyone except the fat guy that cant run after you lol

Sure enough, JDS would love a Overeem in a high guard that doesnt move away, and he'd love Overeem to turn his back to him. That match up will not go well for Reem

 

[a guy]

Thanks man. I think we have the same idea regarding Overeem. At least it is understandable that he and his camp are trying to switch things up a bit. He is the kind of fighter that has very clear strenghts and very clear weaknesses.

I think it's safe to say that Overeeem will never be a defensive wizard, so why not try to change his style to suit his strenghts instead? It might work. He still has great power.

I'm with you. The pocket is not the place for him, so giving him a style that keeps his weaknesses out of reach but still lets him employ his best weapons is likely a smart move. What I really like is that he can still use his clinch, but he's now gaining the ability to control the pace in the meantime. It's very late in his career for this kind of change to happen--he's 34, post PEDs, has been fighting for 15 years and has 50 fights in MMA alone--but it may be what he needs to stay safe and keep competing at a high level.

 

[Bay Area]

Pettis should have switched to southpaw stance in that fight