Serious Movie Discussion XXXVIX

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In A Lonely Place was really good. Don't have much to add besides that. Felt like Bogey played it up a bit too much towards the end, but whatever.



Really liked Blackhat. I don't know what the hell people were bugging about with it. I think more people hate Mann's digital cinematography, than hate the actual content in the movies now.

So, to gear up for a viewing of the most recent X-Men movie, I'm going to revisit the original trilogy and then rewatch First Class (never gave a shit about the solo Wolverine ones and will continue to ignore them). I remember almost nothing of the original trilogy except that I liked it more than I thought I would. I had a similar reaction when I watched First Class and that's when I decided to go back through the earlier films so I could keep up with the reboot. Tonight I'm going to try to marathon the first three films and then do the new two tomorrow night.

I'm also thinking that, after X-Men, I'll revisit the original Spiderman movies (never did see the third one with Tobey) and then check out the more recent ones they did, even though the newer ones look like they're even more kid-friendly than the Tobey ones.

Watch The Wolverine, preferably the extended edition. Seriously.
 
Really liked Blackhat. I don't know what the hell people were bugging about with it. I think more people hate Mann's digital cinematography, than hate the actual content in the movies now.

You da bes Sigh. First person here that's liked it apart from me.

I didn't like it as much as Public Enemies, but liked it a lot.

You like his later stuff?

I actually enjoy what he's doing with his style now. It's just more to the point. But it's not how we're used to watching things.
 
Watch The Wolverine, preferably the extended edition. Seriously.

Dis. Yeah, it goes a bit wrong near the end, but it pisses all over the previous film from a great height. Plus Hiroyuki Sanada's in it, which is never a bad thing.
 
I didn't like it as much as Public Enemies, but liked it a lot.

Seeing Public Enemies mentioned reminded me of something Flemmy said about Foxcatcher, how do you take a story that interesting and make it so boring?
 
I think you will like Days of future past. I actually think it's probably my favorite of those films.

Oh man can't wait to hear your thoughts on Spiderman 3 and The Amazing Spiderman 2. I have a lot to say bout both of them lol.

Hey bro, congrats on the Blue, when did that happen?
And when the fuck am I going to get an interview?
 
Seeing Public Enemies mentioned reminded me of something Flemmy said about Foxcatcher, how do you take a story that interesting and make it so boring?

I get this a lot for late Mann love. I understand it.

What can I say. I love the way he shoots. And how he conveys story with the bare minimum of fuss. That's usually what people find boring, I think. I love it. Pure story.

A key difference between Heat and Public Enemies, apart from his aesthetic, is his abandonment of expository conversation, especially exposition that speaks to character motivation. His newer stuff, you have to suss out the characters through their actions. We aren't going to see any Heat diner scenes any more from him.

And that cabin shootout is GOAT level for me. Did you like that at least? How about Miami Vice. You a fan?
 
I'm going to wait until I've watched all of the X-Men movies to talk about them, but while I'm on a break at a conference that's running today, I figured I'd split what would've amounted to a mega post in two :cool:

Umm... nah I wouldn't really say that.

Interesting. Thanks for the context. In light of what you said about the book, I have to go back to my other claim that, if the weakness of the film was a matter of being too faithful to the book, which is now what it sounds like, then I wish they would've changed things up and tailored the film better to the main story they wanted to tell. Books allow you more space to move and more time to unfold as many stories involving as many characters as you want. Ensemble TV also allows for this kind of storytelling. Movies, though, typically benefit from being more streamlined and I think there was a lot of excess fat that could've been trimmed off the film.

Above all it was boring, and finchers sleepy aesthetic just made it duller.

It started off cool with the clues and then it just solved everything an hour in. Then it carried on until nothing else happened.

Remind me: Where does Vertigo fall in your Hitchcock rankings? It'd be interesting if it turned out that your disinterest in Gone Girl matches that in Vertigo, because like I was saying earlier, they're very similar in terms of plot construction (who am I kidding, I'd also find it interesting if it didn't match).

The shift happens much earlier in Gone Girl (at the halfway point rather than 3/4 of the way in) but in much the same way, the mystery is solved "prematurely," but the suspense persists because it becomes less a matter of "what's going on?" and more a matter of "what are they going to do?" So I wouldn't say they solved everything or that, after the shift, nothing happens. Fincher just shifted what needed to be solved - from the mystery of what Affleck did to his wife to simply the mystery of his wife - and changed up the trajectory - from finding out what happened to finding out what they were going to do in light of what happened.

I'd say that makes for damn compelling viewing :D

thats just overall awesome

I know, but don't let yourself get sucked in. Every season always starts out amazing with a ton of potential and a million awesome characters and storylines (it's no coincidence that the scene I posted was from the first episode of that season) and it has literally never failed: Every season ultimately devolves into a massive clusterfuck of idiocy and garbage.

I think you will like Days of future past. I actually think it's probably my favorite of those films.
I LOVED Days of Future Past. My favorite comic adaptation not made by Chris Nolan.

High praise. I'm excited. Sneak preview for my thoughts on X-Men: They're unquestionably my favorite non-Batman comic-/superhero-based films, so the odds of me liking Days of Future Past are definitely in its favor.

Oh man can't wait to hear your thoughts on Spiderman 3 and The Amazing Spiderman 2. I have a lot to say bout both of them lol.

I used to love the first Spiderman with Tobey. Not only do I not remember the second one, I don't even remember whether or not I liked it, but I know going in that I at least had a one-time connection to at least one of the films :redface:

I actually think you'd be a huge fan of Captain America: The Winter Soldier. It's more of a superhero Jason Bourne-esque espionage movie at times than any other comic movie I've seen.

I hated the first Captain America, but someone else recently recommeded the sequel to me. Was that you, ufcfan? Regardless, two recommendations from people in here has gotten it on my list. I'll probably check it out after my X-Men and Spiderman kick.

I am much less likely to link the "worth" of a film (to me, there is no such thing) to its influences or what it's aping. Perhaps because in my experience, those similarities are almost always in form. To extrapolate worth from form makes it likely that I'll miss 1) the way it functions dramatically, or 2) what it has to say.

Meh, I'm not crazy about the form/content divide. If you're working at the highest level, your content is based in form and your form aids the content. You can't separate the form of Citizen Kane from the content anymore than you can with (to just randomly start naming movies I love) Raging Bull or The Shining or Heat or Pulp Fiction.

But don't let me stop you from trying should you be so inclined. . .

Please note: I'm not saying I wouldn't analyse a film. I just don't spend much time deciding how "good" it is anymore.

All judgments are intrinsically and inescapably evaluative, so you are deciding how "good" films are. You may be doing it differently from me inasmuch as you don't put as much of an emphasis on comparative analysis as I do, but what is establishing how well or how poorly a film manages to accomplish the tasks it set for itself if not deciding how good or how bad it is?

In A Lonely Place was really good.

You rarely post, yet whenever you do, you're invariably posting about a classic you just watched. What's the deal with the old school viewing lately?

Glad you liked In a Lonely Place. Have you seen much from Nicholas Ray? I think you'd get a kick out of Bigger than Life if you haven't already seen it. James Mason completely loses his marbles and it's a blast :icon_chee

I get this a lot for late Mann love.

With Sigh praising Blackhat and you always going on about Mann's latest, I should probably make some time for a Mann marathon. Maybe that'll be my superhero palate cleanser :wink:
 
Me and Earl and the Dying Girl - yikes. What's with the spate of white people seeing other white people through cancer films of recent? Didn't enjoy it.

Seeing Shyamalamadingdong's The Visit today. Another guy I like more than others.

If you're working at the highest level, your content is based in form and your form aids the content.

Sure.

But form is the aspect of the film whose reception is most dependent on the audience's viewing history. What does that mean for its content? Also, form is the more likely of the two to be used as a tool for subversion.

It is my firm belief, for instance, that Tarantino is great not for his homages, but for the way his stories work, beat to beat, and the way his technique aids those beats. If he was to rearrange Pulp Fiction in chronological order, it would still function as a compelling story. I think it is quite telling that he's not doing that as much. He knows that it's an affectation. People know him now. He doesn't have to stand out.

I believe Flem (maybe Sigh?, not sure, it was a long time ago but stuck with me) once said here that a lot of Tarantino's affectations are becoming annoying to him now. They're beginning to look obvious. The funny thing is, they've always stood out. And they were far more obvious. They're just not fresh anymore.

For me, the love I have for those kinds of affectations - I find, it's not what lasts. People are less influenced by Citizen Kane's narrative innovations now. But who can forget Rosebud?

I'll put it like this: The Boondock Saints isn't bad because it's aping Tarantino. In fact, it does those tonal things quite nicely, hence its widespread appeal. It's bad because it's using those tonal qualities to say shitty things. If I was to simply let myself enjoy/hate it for its style, I'd miss what it was really doing.

All judgments are intrinsically and inescapably evaluative, so you are deciding how "good" films are. You may be doing it differently from me inasmuch as you don't put as much of an emphasis on comparative analysis as I do, but what is establishing how well or how poorly a film manages to accomplish the tasks it set for itself if not deciding how good or how bad it is?

No. And yes.

No. I truly don't see the point in deciding worth. Like "this is better than that". Or this is "shit". It handicaps me before I see the damn thing. I'm going into the viewing wondering whether I'm going to like this as much as anyone else. It automatically establishes biases in my head - from my opinion of the guy's taste that already likes it to general critical reception of it to the annoying ubiquity of its genre. It leaves me less open to it.

Can I think a movie can function better? Sure. I still don't imagine it's "bad". In effect, it's telling me so much just by virtue of being "shit". My experience is greater than my opinion of the film. It wasn't the greatest moment in my life to have seen a great film, nor a waste of time to have seen a shitty one.

But yes, I suppose you could draw from my comments that I am, in a sense, assessing these films "worth" based on what's doing a better job of things.
 
Remind me: Where does Vertigo fall in your Hitchcock rankings? It'd be interesting if it turned out that your disinterest in Gone Girl matches that in Vertigo, because like I was saying earlier, they're very similar in terms of plot construction (who am I kidding, I'd also find it interesting if it didn't match).

I haven't seen any of them in a long time, but I preferred Psycho, Rear Window, NXNW, and Dial M for Murder.

The shift happens much earlier in Gone Girl (at the halfway point rather than 3/4 of the way in) but in much the same way, the mystery is solved "prematurely," but the suspense persists because it becomes less a matter of "what's going on?" and more a matter of "what are they going to do?" So I wouldn't say they solved everything or that, after the shift, nothing happens. Fincher just shifted what needed to be solved - from the mystery of what Affleck did to his wife to simply the mystery of his wife - and changed up the trajectory - from finding out what happened to finding out what they were going to do in light of what happened

Which was nothing.
 
I believe Flem (maybe Sigh?, not sure, it was a long time ago but stuck with me) once said here that a lot of Tarantino's affectations are becoming annoying to him now. They're beginning to look obvious. The funny thing is, they've always stood out. And they were far more obvious. They're just not fresh anymore.

I said that hes become a caricature of himself and sigh said "his affectations are starting to feel like affectations."
 
jeez too many lengthy posts to walk through. I'm so lazy. Noticed some Fincher back-and-forths though. Fight Club is one of those films from back in HS that really played a huge role in my interest to seriously explore film. Then, eventually, 2001 happened, and I had the epiphany of a lifetime and realized that film is a goddamn fucking miracle.

As for Fincher, at this point where I am now, The Social Network >

but like, yaknow, Sorkin n shit. But whatever. Fight Club hot on the coattails.
 
No one ever mentions Benjamin Button

Which reminds me, "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button" by F. Scott Fitzgerald is one of the worst short stories from a renowned author that I have ever had the displeasure of reading. I'm already not a Fitzgerald fan to begin with, but gotdang this short story was atrocious. I can only imagine how wishywashy the film adaptation is.
 
Does anybody know how to see the Orson Welles edit of Othello that originally premiered at Cannes in 1952?

Not the American edit or the "restoration" by Welles' daughter

It says it was released in France on VHS. Anyone have or seen a copy?
 
Does anybody know how to see the Orson Welles edit of Othello that originally premiered at Cannes in 1952?

Not the American edit or the "restoration" by Welles' daughter

It says it was released in France on VHS. Anyone have or seen a copy?

Checked my movie tracker sites, but no luck.
 
All right, I've concluded my X-Men marathon. X-Men was fucking awesome. I literally remembered nothing. I forgot Bryan Singer had anything to do with it, I forgot Ian McKellen was Magneto, I forgot Sookie and Halle Berry were in it, and I had no clue what the plot was. So, as an origin story, I desperately needed this movie and it was a fantastic origin story. I loved following Rogue (she'll always be Sookie to me, but I'll refer to her as Rogue from here on out) and basically entering into the X-Men world through her and Wolverine, who has a great intro, and I loved the way we were thrown - with the two of them, the relationship between them making for my favorite part of the entire franchise - into this preexisting world of mutants battling each other over how best to protect themselves. It's just a great story and everything is set-up brilliantly and executed in a tremendously intelligent and exciting fashion. When Magneto's crew ambushes Wolverine and Rogue and then Storm and Cyclops save them, it's just bad ass, plain and simple, and it just gets better and better from there. Patrick Stewart and McKellen were perfect as the Professor and Magneto, wise old foes "destined to do this forever," to borrow a sentiment from another superhero franchise. I also liked the love triangle between Wolverine, Cyclops, and Jean.

X2 followed perfectly from the first one, and IMO, is even better. The only scenes I remembered from this one were the opening and then a vague memory of them at a house with normal people, and it's no wonder those were the scenes that stuck in my head, as they're still the standouts. Brian Cox plays a phenomenal villain and the plot is once again conceived and carried off with intelligence and excitement. I love when Cox's team storms the school, I love the scene at Iceman's house, I love Magneto saving them and then "joining" them only to take over as the villain for Cox, I loved Jean's sacrifice, and I loved the ending in the White House. Just everything about this movie was fucking top-notch, maybe the best non-Nolan superhero movie.

The third one, unfortunately, succumbed to the Godfather syndrome. Just a giant fucking turd. It started off pretty well, I liked the idea of the cure and that fueling another Professor/Magneto battle over the right course for mutant/human relations, but all that silly shit with Jean was just fucking garbage. The alternate Phoenix personality which inexplicably means she can not only come back to life but become literally the most stupendously powerful thing in the universe? And then she "kills" the Professor (except not really?) and then Wolverine kills her (retarded context but I liked what it opened up for Wolverine later) and Magneto "loses" his powers? There was just so much fucked up shit in this movie that I wish it'd never been made, and yet it wasn't completely without merit as some of the stuff it brought up made for interesting stuff later.

I'd originally planned to move from the original trilogy straight to First Class, but before I cued it up, I saw Sigh's post recommending The Wolverine, so I looked up how it fit within the chronology and decided it'd be a good idea to check it out. It was a fantastic movie all the way up until the ending. I didn't expect to, but I fucking loved just following Wolverine without the rest of the X-Men. He was always the most compelling character with his healing abilities coming with the price of eternal mental and physical pain and suffering, and all of that was amplified here as he grappled with his bizarre past and, over the course of the film, came to terms with Jean's death (which would've still been a good conflict had the third movie never been made). It was annoying to see him weakened for so much of the movie, but it was still awesome seeing him fuck up the Yakuza the whole time. By the end, though, with that ridiculous Iron Man monster thing somehow keeping old man Yashida alive, it just got too stupid.

First Class, however, is still just as awesome as I'd remembered. Not quite as good as X2, IMO, but it's close (and a billion times better than Kingsmen, which was the same fucking movie minus everything good while adding a bunch of extra worse shit). I fucking love McAvoy and Fassbender in those roles and particularly together, just a great pairing to match Stewart and McKellen. And Kevin Bacon, I totally forgot about him but he was amazing. Loved the whole thing, loved the characters, the plot, everything. Just a home-run of a movie and a great reboot.

Finally, I watched Days of Future Past tonight. I'm sorry, Shot, but I thought it kind of sucked. Lots of cool stuff in it, don't get me wrong, but the main conflict was way too far-fetched. I could feel the comic bookyness of it. Plus, it's not really that much fun to watch them technically exterminated (yeah, yeah, they "win" by changing the past, but only because they fucking lose hard). It was fun seeing Wolverine go back in time (and terrifying to see how little Hugh Jackman has aged, it's like the fucking guy is Wolverine and ages slower than mere humans, yet despite not aging, he gets more jacked each time out!) and Fassbender is just too fucking cool as Magneto, but I just couldn't really get into it. I am, however, very excited to see where this reboot goes from here based on the way everything has been changed up now with everybody back to life and on an alternate timeline. It's almost as if this movie had to be a little shitty since the real work it was doing was hitting the delete button on the even shitter third film, so if I have to take a little bad with the good, I'm okay with that :redface:

To speak in more general terms, I was amazed at how much from the X-Men films has shown up in other stuff. First off, True Blood took a ton of shit from this movie, from the vampires "coming out of the coffin" and being feared/persecuted as they try to cohabitate with humans just like the mutants, the allegory of humanity played out via the extremes of the mutant's/vampires' powers, specific plot points like declaring war on the mutants and experimenting on them as they try to exterminate them like in Season 6 of True Blood, and even the way they dealt with the Professor's and Jean's telepathy with the rapid camera movements and overlapping dialogue is exactly how they dealt with Sookie's mindreading.

There also seemed to be a strange two-way circuit between this franchise and Nolan's Batman franchise. Cerebro made me think of the sonar machine in The Dark Knight, the cops swarming them in X2 made me think of the cops going after Batman in The Dark Knight Rises, Jean's death and Wolverine's and Cyclops' shared loss very closely mirrored the loss of Rachel for Bruce/Batman and Harvey/Two-Face, and even the third one had some shit that made me think of Nolan's Batman movies from Magneto gathering his troops like Bane to the battle at the end calling to mind the battle between Bane and the criminals and Batman and the cops in The Dark Knight Rises and even Magneto's chess piece at the end like the top in Inception.

Then, going the other way, the reboot was clearly a post-Nolan X-Men series. In First Class, Bacon's plan to pit everyone against each other to foster destruction made me think of Bane's plot while Magneto's arguments with the Professor recalled the Joker's comments to Batman, and in Days of Future Past, Magneto talking to the cameras in a sporting arena made me think of Bane's camera-friendly tactics while the parallel editing between "levels" was straight-up Inception.

I've said it before, but my favorite thing about superhero movies is the way they're constantly reworking the same basic materials. Action movies in general are a lot like this, it's a very insular genre that is very much rooted in convention and all about inventive reimaginings, and part of the fun for me is seeing the ways these movies "talk" to each other. It's also fun to see, based on what these movies choose to rework, which movies are taken by the filmmakers to be the game-changers.

Anyway, those are my X-Men thoughts. Next up: Spiderman.
 
X2 was my favorite movie ever when I was a young teenager. I would watch it almost every day after school. Thought Nightcrawler was the coolest ever.
 
I don't think True Blood took anything from X-Men as much as they used different mediums (mutants, vampires) for the same metaphor (outcasts: minorities, lbgt, etc).
 
X2 was my favorite movie ever when I was a young teenager. I would watch it almost every day after school. Thought Nightcrawler was the coolest ever.

You had good taste once upon a time :wink:

I don't think True Blood took anything from X-Men as much as they used different mediums (mutants, vampires) for the same metaphor (outcasts: minorities, lbgt, etc).

I don't think it can be so easily chalked up to coincidence. Can you think of a movie or TV show that did this with such explicitness before the X-Men movies? I think the explictness, the proximity (True Blood started up right after the original trilogy), and the fact that Anna Paquin was in both lends credence to the claim that True Blood took some inspiration from what they were doing in those first few films.

Another thing I thought of: Magneto stopping the plane like Russell stopping Sookie and Bill's car :cool:
 
You had good taste once upon a time :wink:



I don't think it can be so easily chalked up to coincidence. Can you think of a movie or TV show that did this with such explicitness before the X-Men movies? I think the explictness, the proximity (True Blood started up right after the original trilogy), and the fact that Anna Paquin was in both lends credence to the claim that True Blood took some inspiration from what they were doing in those first few films.

Another thing I thought of: Magneto stopping the plane like Russell stopping Sookie and Bill's car :cool:

The X-Men as a comic has been telling this story since 1963.
The first movie came out in 2000.

The True Blood books started in 2001 and the TV show in '08, right around the time pop-culture rediscovered vampires. While I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility, there are indeed similarities and I wouldn't be shocked if we found an article from the creator testifying to Stan Lee's brilliance, I think it has more to do with a novel take on a popular genre than the X-Men movies inspiring a young adult series about vampires.
 
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