Japan needs migrants badly

[panamaican]

The immigrant thing is funny where people say Japan/places with falling populations don't need immigrants and then people who often agree with that state they would immigrate to Japan as if don't see themselves as part and parcel of the immigrant problem that Japan is trying to avoid.

That aside, I've always found Japan's current population decline fascinating but not problematic. It's an interesting window into larger social trends though.

I'm always more intrigued by how people obsess over immigration while ignoring every other lesson that the Japanese situation could teach.

 

[panamaican]

Lol, Look, Japan should do whatever they want. But let's not get silly here, The Japanese have an incredibly violent and despicable recent history. That ethnic pride and homogeneity that you celebrate was displayed through the mass rape and torture of the Chinese within my grandfathers lifetime.

Everybody needs to be more honest about the seedy underbelly of Japanese culture and stop pretending they are better than us. They aren't, at all.

We could make an entire thread filled with twisted creations of Japanese culture and not so well hidden problems in their country.

Countries like Japan put on a wonderful front but you do not have to look very hard to see through it.

You just made me think about something. When the Western world reached Japan in the 1800's (?) the Japanese were significantly behind in terms of technology and the sciences. Yet no one questions their society as intellectually backwards at the time. Their current culture has decimated their reproductive rates and some of the most questionable entertainment fetishes (tentacle rape for example) come from there yet people still laud their culture.

Does no one else find that weird?

 

[Teppodama]

The immigrant thing is funny where people say Japan/places with falling populations don't need immigrants and then people who often agree with that state they would immigrate to Japan as if don't see themselves as part and parcel of the immigrant problem that Japan is trying to avoid.

That aside, I've always found Japan's current population decline fascinating but not problematic. It's an interesting window into larger social trends though.

I'm always more intrigued by how people obsess over immigration while ignoring every other lesson that their situation could teach.

Japan is in a interesting position, much like China, to effect a cultural program is bolster their declining numbers by fashioning it into a national imperative. Both of their societies are particularly susceptible to focused social programs "in the good of the nation". China more so, but Japan falls along the same lines. Both have an almost ingrained deference to nationalism.

 

[A_bomb47]

You just made me think about something. When the Western world reached Japan in the 1800's (?) the Japanese were significantly behind in terms of technology and the sciences. Yet no one questions their society as intellectually backwards at the time. Their current culture has decimated their reproductive rates and some of the most questionable entertainment fetishes (tentacle rape for example) come from there yet people still laud their culture.

Does no one else find that weird?

Not to mention their herbivore 'men'....

http://www.businessinsider.com/herb...-having-sex-8-15?international=true&r=US&IR=T

 

[panamaican]

Japan is in a interesting position, much like China, to effect a cultural program is bolster their declining numbers by fashioning it into a national imperative. Both of their societies are particularly susceptible to focused social programs "in the good of the nation". China more so, but Japan falls along the same lines. Both have an almost ingrained deference to nationalism.

True but they don't seem to be effectively achieving that. Nothing I've read recently indicates that their efforts are leading to an uptick in relationships, marriages or birthrates. But it's entirely possible the changes are too new or too small to be measured as of yet.

The primary issue seems much more about the oft cited and properly maligned "work-life" balance where the lifestyle requirements for economic success simply make home life a distant second fiddle. I don't know how you fix that without removing the corporate pressure. And I can't imagine any country demanding that its companies reduce their competitive drive so that replaceable employees can go home and raise kids. Let alone any competitive company doing so.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

The world is over populated. That's the problem. A slow down in population isn't going to kill anything, this just sounds like big business freaking out that they can't get bigger.

 

[nac386]

You just made me think about something. When the Western world reached Japan in the 1800's (?) the Japanese were significantly behind in terms of technology and the sciences. Yet no one questions their society as intellectually backwards at the time. Their current culture has decimated their reproductive rates and some of the most questionable entertainment fetishes (tentacle rape for example) come from there yet people still laud their culture.

Does no one else find that weird?

Honestly, I get the impression that there are two specific groups of Americans who tend to glorify Japan and ignore the glaring problems in their culture and history.

1. Nerdy guys who like anime and stuff like that (not that there's anything wrong with that)
2. Ethnocentrists and Nationalists who believe Japan's own tendency to stick to their own is some kind of model for creating a perfect society.

The problem is, these people always seem to completely ignore Japan's glaring shortcomings as a nation and as a culture just to celebrate how homogeneous they are (as if that is something, in and of itself, to celebrate).

Does anybody really think the Japanese, the nation that brought us the rape of Nanking and more recently tentacle rape pornography and pornography centered around women looking and sounding like children, are in the position to lecture anybody about rape? Are we really going to pretend that a nation with a recent history as bloody and vicious as Japan is in the position to lecture about peace and stability within a single human lifetime?

No. Japan is not a model for the United States. Neither is Europe. The United States is the model.

 

[Higus]

Japan is a really interesting case to see the unintended consequences of their immigration policies, as well as to study what happens to them next.

I wonder: If the goal of the country is to increase population without increasing immigration, what are the levers that the government can pull in order to achieve those goals? The population problem is more a matter of culture than immigration. Can the government make policy to influence the culture? Should it interfere or stay out of the way? All interesting stuff.

 

[uppercutbus]

Are we really going to pretend that a nation with a recent history as bloody and vicious as Japan is in the position to lecture about peace and stability within a single human lifetime?

What's that got to do with making them take third world muslim immigration? They don't want it.

No. Japan is not a model for the United States. Neither is Europe. The United States is the model.

Let countries be homogenous and do what they want, not what you want. None of this diversification forced onto countries like Poland Hungary Japan. . .

Also US just enacted a muslim ban.

 

[Teppodama]

True but they don't seem to be effectively achieving that. Nothing I've read recently indicates that their efforts are leading to an uptick in relationships, marriages or birthrates. But it's entirely possible the changes are too new or too small to be measured as of yet.

The primary issue seems much more about the oft cited and properly maligned "work-life" balance where the lifestyle requirements for economic success simply make home life a distant second fiddle. I don't know how you fix that without removing the corporate pressure. And I can't imagine any country demanding that its companies reduce their competitive drive so that replaceable employees can go home and raise kids. Let alone any competitive company doing so.

It may be simply that the reality of the very real need for the cultural adjustment to support their relative legacy of homogeneity hasn't forced enough pressure upon their corporate culture to trigger active shifts in priority.

Japanese can be rather fatalistic but I doubt the national will is there to simply allow themselves to dwindle away so eventually they will have to take pragmatic measures to deal with the issue. They will either open themselves to further cultural integration, up their numbers and keep their corporate industrial machine moving forward as usual or they will turn further inward and focus on social engineering to deal with the problem. Japan can be rather pragmatic on some things. Depends on where they believe their greater duty lays.

 

[nac386]

What's that got to do with making them take third world muslim immigration? They don't want it.

Let countries be homogenous and do what they want, not what you want. None of this diversification forced onto countries like Poland Hungary Japan. . .

Also US just enacted a muslim ban.

It's like you did not even read my comments in the thread.

You cannot select individual sentences from an entire thread and insert your own context. Read my posts from the beginning to the end and you'll find that I already said that Japan should do whatever they want in regards to immigration, and that immigration does need to be handled strategically.

 

[uppercutbus]

It's like you did not even read my comments in the thread.

Then what was the point you where making. . . that U.S. is the way forward?

 

[Teppodama]

Japan is a really interesting case to see the unintended consequences of their immigration policies, as well as to study what happens to them next.

I wonder: If the goal of the country is to increase population without increasing immigration, what are the levers that the government can pull in order to achieve those goals? The population problem is more a matter of culture than immigration. Can the government make policy to influence the culture? Should it interfere or stay out of the way? All interesting stuff.

Go the China model. Double down on tradition and nationalism as a measure of social identity then define what those qualities entail and push to support those elements on a national level. Glamorize them and incentivize them.

 

[machidafan99]

They don't like outsiders coming in.

 

[nac386]

Then what was the point you where making. . . that U.S. is the way forward?

You want me to summarize all of the posts that I've made in this entire thread for you? You should just read them.

 

[snakedafunky]

This is what a lot of people in Japan, American alt right Reich or whoever calls themselves a nationalist these days don't understand.
You can't go back to times in the past. If you look at the countries with the highest standard of living Western Europe, Japan, Australia, etc.
There is no desire for women to have more than 1 or 2 children on average. Whatever economic policy you implement or how much you encourage it.

The fact remains that given the economic choice and free choice women on average don't like to have more than 1 or 2 children.
We know that now. So if you are a real nationalist, you would put your personal feelings behind the good of the nation and accept that immigration is needed.
Your personal preferences or opinion do not matter.

 

[uppercutbus]

Japan is a really interesting case to see the unintended consequences of their immigration policies, as well as to study what happens to them next.

Having a low birth rate is not really a result of a countries immigration policies. Germany had a similar immigration policy to the rest of Europe, but they had their jimmies rustled because they had a low birth rate and then shat the bed with an open border policy to try and "fix" it. Mekel has the gall to pretend it's for humanitarian reasons when we know it's not.

You want me to summarize all of the posts that I've made in this entire thread for you? You should just read them.

I directly quoted your posts and you made a statement at the end that US is the ideal model. It's not the best, just different.

 

[Scerpi]

This.

I've been to Japan several times over the years and they will be just fine without invaders. Culturally homogenous societies are better for everyone.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.......

Whoa....

That kind of talk might get you branded in some parts of the World.

Branded what I don't know though.

 

[Denter]

You just made me think about something. When the Western world reached Japan in the 1800's (?) the Japanese were significantly behind in terms of technology and the sciences. Yet no one questions their society as intellectually backwards at the time. Their current culture has decimated their reproductive rates and some of the most questionable entertainment fetishes (tentacle rape for example) come from there yet people still laud their culture.

Does no one else find that weird?

Japan is a basket case because it was hit hardest by the size, complexity, atomization and urbanization of modern capitalism as it built itself back up after the war.

This is a fascinating article about elderly Japanese dying alone without family around:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/world/asia/japan-lonely-deaths-the-end.html?_r=0

Note how the anecdotes about Mrs. Ito and Mr. Kinoshita are pretty similar, as well as the other people they mention. They all moved into shiny new apartment projects in the 60s or so, cutting themselves off from the traditional extended family into the nuclear family model, often moving from rural areas of Japan into megacities. Because of the pressures of work and other reasons, marriages failed or they had few children, and completely cut off from their village roots and without many children or relatives of their own, they are dying a lonely death.

The same pattern is happening in the USA, and leading to lower birthrates- In Japan it happened faster and more violently due to the density of the population, the speed of re-industrialization and housing development. The real question that should be asked is how can we reduce or ameliorate the factors that lead to atomization and low fertility, not some debate over immigrants.

 

[Scerpi]

Also, isn't Japan mostly densely packed already?

Maybe more countries should look into downsizing their populations?

And no, I don't mean by killing them.