voter ID laws are being used for voter suppression

In my very first post I called them scumbags doing shady shit. What more do you need before opening the discussion up to the entirety of the problem? I could have pointed out how stupid it was to compare a concealed carry license to a school id. Someone else did though. Do you just wanna cry incessantly about some assholes manipulating the system or do you also wanna discuss potential resolutions to the ongoing debate?

Let me agree one more time that targeted voter suppression is wrong. Politicians who engage in it should be fired, charged with a crime, sued, whatever. So go ahead and lead any discussion you feel is appropriate. I'll be happy to demonstrate to you how courageous simple it is to answer direct questions.

Well, I appreciate it, even though you've been refusing to do it until now. Maybe in the next post you can answer direct questions without snarky resentment for having to answer direct questions.

What, in your mind, is "the entirety of the problem" and how is that different from me wanting to discuss the entire problem with voter ID laws instead of just talking about the aspect of it that requires specific identification?
 
And my point is that identification is established multiple times during the process already, thus negating the need to procure specific state ID's to vote. Whatever ID is sufficient to register to vote or to get the state ID should also be sufficient to vote.


I believe I gave your post a like (out of agreement) when you initially brought this up.
 
The gun question first. Yes. I'd be fine with it. I've said in the past, if someone can afford to properly store an ICBM in their backyard, I'd be fine with that too. My opinion on the 2nd Amendment is extremely anti-regulation because it's a right. I recognize that, in practice, that you need certain requirements in place to safely store that ICBM and the government should make some effort to ensure they're there.

As for what ID is good enough to vote - pretty much anything from a utility bill to a state ID should be fine. You have to provide identification when you register.

And I don't care what anyone's particular motivations are. My specific argument is that it's an unnecessary hurdle regardless of motivation, although some motivations are worse than others.

The "let's prevent unauthorized use" argument is fallacious to me because there's a negligible amount of actual fraud. It's been studied and studied and studied and nothing of import has ever been found. But to take this argument to a right where there is actual evidence of abuse...

You're a 2nd Amendment supporter - if someone said we need more gun regulation to prevent unauthorized use, something which has significant documented evidence of occurring, you would probably raise some variant of the "criminals will engage in criminal behavior no matter what regulations we put in place." "Gun laws don't prevent criminals, they only impact the people already inclined to follow the law."

I think those are valid arguments. And they're equally applicable to voting. Because at the end of the day the question is about regulating rights and I cannot understand people who think some rights need restrictions and other rights don't.

A state ID is fine so long as the government issues it at the government's expense and no one has to apply for it. If it's something that just shows up in your mail every year, no questions asked, then that's fine although you couldn't force any state to accept a national ID for state elections because that would be federal overstep.
Use a utility bill to vote? Lol I'm sure the democrats would do all kinds of voting fraud if identification requirements were that low. Luckily the people in charge of voting laws are much smarter than you.

Maybe if your idea was legal, you could go to all of your registered voter welfare buddies who are too lazy to vote, take their electric bill & go vote for them. Maybe then Hilary would've won.
 
Well, I appreciate it, even though you've been refusing to do it until now. Maybe in the next post you can answer direct questions without snarky resentment for having to answer direct questions.

What, in your mind, is "the entirety of the problem" and how is that different from me wanting to discuss the entire problem with voter ID laws instead of just talking about the aspect of it that requires specific identification?

The entirety of the problem is first deciding on the appropriateness/legality of requiring id and then how to best satisfy the requirement or avoid fraud without them.

Have you clearly stated whether you are in favor of an id requirement of some sort or against it?
 
Use a utility bill to vote? Lol I'm sure the democrats would do all kinds of voting fraud if identification requirements were that low. Luckily the people in charge of voting laws are much smarter than you.

Maybe if your idea was legal, you could go to all of your registered voter welfare buddies who are too lazy to vote, take their electric bill & go vote for them. Maybe then Hilary would've won.

Plenty of states allow you use to bring a utility bill as proof of address to get your state issued ID. And many states establish you to prove your identity and address before they will issue a utility bill in your name (for litigation and collection purposes).

So, by the time you've acquired a utility bill in your name, many states have already established your identity.
 
Plenty of states allow you use to bring a utility bill as proof of address to get your state issued ID.
That's weird. I guess that means people in those states have no excuse for not having a state ID
 
That's weird. I guess that means people in those states have no excuse for not having a state ID

That makes zero sense since you don't get them at the same place or at the same time.
 
The entirety of the problem is first deciding on the appropriateness/legality of requiring id and then how to best satisfy the requirement or avoid fraud without them.

Have you clearly stated whether you are in favor of an id requirement of some sort or against it?

That is not the entirety of the problem. In fact, that's not the problem at all. The problem is that the voter ID laws are not in any way being used to combat voter fraud. They are quite overtly being used to suppress the vote.

I have not stated whether I am in favour of an ID requirement of some sort or against it, but I have said several times that it is not an unreasonable solution to voter fraud. To state my beliefs clearly for you in this post: requiring ID is reasonable and should be part of a government oversight program to make sure that nobody loses their ability to vote because they're unable to acquire the necessary documentation, but may be unnecessary because study after study has shown voter fraud is basically non-existant and the voter ID laws are clearly prone to abuses that are well beyond what anyone imagined they would or could be vulnerable to.

The entire opposition to Voter ID laws is the way they're being abused to blatantly prevent legal citizens from voting.
 
But it makes sense to use a utility bill to get the ID that lets you vote?
No, when I did say that? I think you should have to show a birth certificate to get an ID.

How do you expect to prevent voting fraud by allowing people to vote with a utility bill? Please explain
 
The problem is that the voter ID laws are not in any way being used to combat voter fraud. They are quite overtly being used to suppress the vote.

I have not stated whether I am in favour of an ID requirement of some sort or against it, but I have said several times that it is not an unreasonable solution to voter fraud. To state my beliefs clearly for you in this post: requiring ID is reasonable and should be part of a government oversight program to make sure that nobody loses their ability to vote because they're unable to acquire the necessary documentation, but may be unnecessary because study after study has shown voter fraud is basically non-existant and the voter ID laws are clearly prone to abuses that are well beyond what anyone imagined they would or could be vulnerable to.

The entire opposition to Voter ID laws is the way they're being abused to blatantly prevent legal citizens from voting.

What you
call "the problem" I consider to be part of "how to best satisfy the requirement". So as I said, it appears I'm just a bit more circumspect here than the view you're taking.

Thanks for clarifying. I don't really know how much voter fraud takes place and am skeptical of the accuracy of "studies". Nor do I know how much fraud justifies a simple measure like providing id. I do know that it's a big fear among many and in order to assuage it I'm in support of some form of the requirement. Here's my state. Never once heard anyone say they want to vote but can't.

https://olvr.hawaii.gov/
http://elections.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/VR-PAB-English.pdf

So is your solution to rail against voter id laws, or is it to require some form of id that is reasonably satisfied by those not retarded or in a coma? :D

@panamaican suggested the feds couldn't force a national id to be recognized on the state level. He might be right. Although, based on all the other federal overreach, I'm willing to bet some rationalization could be found. Let's call it the 14th Amendment coupled with the necessary and proper clause. The feds would be protecting people's Constitutional right.
 
Use a utility bill to vote? Lol I'm sure the democrats would do all kinds of voting fraud if identification requirements were that low. Luckily the people in charge of voting laws are much smarter than you.

Maybe if your idea was legal, you could go to all of your registered voter welfare buddies who are too lazy to vote, take their electric bill & go vote for them. Maybe then Hilary would've won.

jfc, can you be any more clueless?

http://civilrights.findlaw.com/othe...uirements-the-help-america-vote-act-hava.html

Types of Acceptable Identification

The following are some examples of documents allowed in some states to establish identity at a voting booth (states may require 1 or more of certain types of these documents):

  • Driver's license or state ID card
  • Passport
  • Employee ID
  • Student ID
  • Military ID
  • Utility bills
  • Bank statements
  • Paychecks
  • Concealed Handgun licenses
 
No, when I did say that? I think you should have to show a birth certificate to get an ID.

How do you expect to prevent voting fraud by allowing people to vote with a utility bill? Please explain

I explained already. In many states, you have to establish your identity to get a utility bill in your name.

If a birth certificate is good enough to get an ID then a birth certificate should be good enough to vote with.
 
I explained already. In many states, you have to establish your identity to get a utility bill in your name.

If a birth certificate is good enough to get an ID then a birth certificate should be good enough to vote with.
You must be confused. What is preventing me from taking your birth certificate or utility bill to go vote? I'm trying to make this simple for you
 
What you call "the problem" I consider to be part of "how to best satisfy the requirement". So as I said, it appears I'm just a bit more circumspect here than the view you're taking.

This view is extremely bizarre to me. A law was implemented that was not unreasonable and then was hijacked beyond the wildest expectations. This is exactly that slippery slope that anti-gun-control people rail at. Imagine if a law passed that all gun owners had to register their weapons and a year later every person on the list was being raided by police and having their firearms confiscated.

You wouldn't think, "How do we satisfy the requirements of the original registration?" You would think, "Jesus titty-fucking Christ, has the world gone crazy?! We need to shut this down now and then figure out how to make people safer without having the process hijacked to strip people of their rights!"

Thanks for clarifying. I don't really know how much voter fraud takes place and am skeptical of the accuracy of "studies".

What alternative source of information do you propose? Bullshit and anecdotes is the usual alternative.

So is your solution to rail against voter id laws, or is it to require some form of id that is reasonably satisfied by those not retarded or in a coma? :D

Why does your proposed solution (emboldened) have literally nothing to do with solving the problem of Voter ID laws? This has been the frustrating part of talking about this with you: it seems like you are literally ignoring the actual problem and focusing on the one narrow, relatively-benign component of the laws.

What is your solution to eliminating all the problems I outlined in the OP of this thread?
 
You must be confused. What is preventing me from taking your birth certificate or utility bill to go vote? I'm trying to make this simple for you

I'm not confused. What prevents you from taking my birth certificate/utility bill and going to get an ID?

If the birth certificate is good enough to get the ID, why isn't it good enough to vote?
 
I'm not confused. What prevents you from taking my birth certificate/utility bill and going to get an ID?

If the birth certificate is good enough to get the ID, why isn't it good enough to vote?
Lol yes you're very confused.

A birth certificate is sufficient to get an ID. What is supposed to keep people honest is the fact that it's illegal to provide false information to obtain an ID. That's printed in big bold letters at my local DMV. The only reason anyone would provide false information to obtain an ID is if they're up to something illegal.

Here's where you're confused. If someone only needs to show a utility bill to vote, there is nothing preventing a person from voting many times with other people's utility bills.

For example if a convicted felon wants to go vote, but he can't because he doesn't have the right, he can just take his buddies utility bill to go vote. This is why people want a photo ID to vote.

Just be honest & admit voter ID laws are hindering voting fraud.
 
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