What happened to Sugar Ray Robinson in the Mayweather Jr GOAT discussion?

[proncley]

There's always light and shade.
Not too many boxers were able to win world titles at 8 different weight classes...so far only one has been able to do it, which tells me that the number of weight classes is just fine.

I agree that the different world titles are confusing, but they also enable unfication bouts which are always special.
Like Golovkin vs. BJS ... a year ago Saunders was just another title holder, as he kept winning people started to believe that he can actually defeat Golovkin, especially considering that GGG has looked mortal und vulnerable lately. As of right now him vs. BJS is a legitimate unification match at world class level.

Same thing with AJ vs. Wilder ... people look at both of them as legitimate world champions and want to see the unification.

 

[deathstalker]

Here's another list made by RING in 2002 - http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_80_Best_Fighters_of_the_Last_80_Years

 

[moosaev]

Oh I read BEAT instead of be.

However, the post is typical nonsense, like "back then they fought 50x a year".

"Beat" works too. You just have no clue about boxing history.

 

[spacetime]

Here's another list made by RING in 2002 - http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_80_Best_Fighters_of_the_Last_80_Years

Lennox Lewis below Holyfield?? He could barely touch Lewis. Lewis beat everyone of his generation.

 

[proncley]

"Beat" works too. You just have no clue about boxing history.

 

[deathstalker]

Yeah, I'd have Lennox over Holyfield too. Here's a list made by ESPN in 2007 - http://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

 

[spacetime]

Roberto Duran seems to be a fan favourite. He is way overestimated in in these lists in my opinion. He would have never beaten Sugar Ray Leonard, if Leonard didn't go in there and tried to beat Duran with his own game (slugging away) just to prove a point. I'd have him beating Duran 99 times out of 100 with normal strategies.

 

[Seano]

I agree that canelo is nowhere near the historical champs. But he is likely better than anyone SRR ever faced and Mayweather dismissed him effortlessly, arguably winning all rounds

Canelo has a pretty good resume and is in his prime. His resume compares fine with other greats at similar points in their careers.

 

[spacetime]

Canelo has a pretty good resume and is in his prime. His resume compares fine with other greats at similar points in their careers.

He got absolutely dominated by GGG for about half the fight. Should'nt he at least be competitive in such encounters to be an all-time great?

 

[Dr. Will]

Roberto Duran seems to be a fan favourite. He is way overestimated in in these lists in my opinion. He would have never beaten Sugar Ray Leonard, if Leonard didn't go in there and tried to beat Duran with his own game (slugging away) just to prove a point. I'd have him beating Duran 99 times out of 100 with normal strategies.

Duran wasn't motivated to go out of his way to train and beat someone he's already beaten before, like Tyson Fury after beating Wladimir. Duran lost 50lbs in such a short period of time and just couldn't pull the trigger in the rematch, all for the paycheck.
Also, best not to forget Duran was at his best as a Lightweight and had already had amassed a long 71-1 record before, and although he transitioned up to Welterweight well, he was still a small guy. SRL's prime was at 147, conversely - 2 whole weight divisions above SRL. Nothing wrong with losing to SRL, someone who is probably best argued as being the 'best ever' himself.

 

[Seano]

He got absolutely dominated by GGG for about half the fight. Should'nt he at least be competitive in such encounters to be an all-time great?

I didn't see anyone get dominated in that fight.

 

[moosaev]

Thats why you have to compare them based on stats alone and not romantic ideas of how you believe the sport should be. Who cares if guys fought 3 times a month if they were fighting guys that couldn't even be sanctioned to fight them today? Guys like Robinson and Greb get too much credit for what were little more than public sparring sessions for money. What did a guy accomplish? Who did he beat? Those are the important questions. When you start saying a guy is great based on having a lot of fights, I feel like you're having to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

You're assuming that because they fought 3 times a month, most of those guys must've been cans. Some of them were, but the depth of talent meant a lot of them were very good fighters. And activity matters in the sense that it gave the old timers an exponentially larger reservoir of knowledge so that title fights or fights between top contenders were fights of supreme skill. Contrast that to the Mayweather era, where 70% of title fights were/are complete jokes. Ray Beltran is getting ready to fight Paulus Moses for a title next month. Thats the type of trash we have holding titles these days. And Mayweather gets to brag about being in X number of title fights against that level of opposition.

 

[Hagler]

Boxing nostalgia does exist. So does overrating current fighters.

 

[moosaev]

Boxing nostalgia does exist. So does overrating current fighters.

The difference is the folks that spew nostalgia actually know about the different eras and are better equipped to make a comparative assessment. Whereas most of the folks who poo poo the old timers and overrate current fighters don't know shit about boxing history since that would require actually picking up a book because you won't find that info on twitter or boxingscene.

 

[spacetime]

I didn't see anyone get dominated in that fight.

Canelo was dominated without getting killed, which is just as bad, if not worse.

 

[Hagler]

Canelo was dominated without getting killed, which is just as bad, if not worse.

Eh, he pretty much won the beginning and the end of the fight, which is hardly getting dominated.

 

[spacetime]

Eh, he pretty much won the beginning and the end of the fight, which is hardly getting dominated.

That's not how I saw it. I saw a guy win 3 rounds of solid boxing, then get schooled.

 

[Hagler]

That's not how I saw it. I saw a guy win 3 rounds of solid boxing, then get schooled.

You didn't see any difference between rounds 4-9 and rounds 10-12 ?

 

[Seano]

You're assuming that because they fought 3 times a month, most of those guys must've been cans. Some of them were, but the depth of talent meant a lot of them were very good fighters. And activity matters in the sense that it gave the old timers an exponentially larger reservoir of knowledge so that title fights or fights between top contenders were fights of supreme skill. Contrast that to the Mayweather era, where 70% of title fights were/are complete jokes. Ray Beltran is getting ready to fight Paulus Moses for a title next month. Thats the type of trash we have holding titles these days. And Mayweather gets to brag about being in X number of title fights against that level of opposition.

I rate Robinson over Floyd but there is a TON of filler on Robinsons record. If Floyd Mayweather fought guys like those today, people would laugh at him.

 

[wilddeuces]

It's not in the discussion because it is assumed knowledge: SRR is above Floyd Mayweather for pretty much every conceivable reason. Number of HoFer's he fought when they were in or damn close to their prime. Number of times he took tough fights he didn't have to. Longevity. Surpasses Mayweather's unbeaten streak, and only suffered a loss because he wasn't carefully matched.

Over all the years he fought, only two names really stand out as guys he could have fought: Burley and Zale come to mind.

There's one guy I would rank above him if I had footage on him and that is Harry Greb. But, since no footage has survived, I just can't do it. Plus I might be a bit subjective there. From a very objective standpoint, I have to rank SRR is at the top of the P4P or ATG lists even though several of his opponents I have a subjective preference for.

SRR just belongs.