Ending the estate tax: Walton's - $54 Billion / Koch Bros. - $38 Billion

Is this why there are so many mega rich in America?

You talk about this like upper end tax rates are causing some real problem and needs fixing. Really though the only objection you have is that you think it's unfair.

If there is some greater issue with it please spell it out but I've never seen you do it, and i would love to.

There are mega rich in America because our system allows those who work hard to be rewarded for their effort. Those people having that money does not stop anyone from earning their own wealth. I’ve posted statistics regarding how 1% of the population pays a massively impropritonate amount of income taxes. Even with this inequality they are able to succeed and acquire wealth but that doesn’t mean they deserve to be punished for their success. Everyone should contribute equally.

None of you jealous thieves have ever posted anything factual regarding how these people having money hurts anyone. It doesn’t hinder your chance of success and it doesn’t hinder mine.
 
A farm would technically count as a small business since nowadays they're not labor intensive business and small business in the US are often defined as having fewer than 500 employees. But the point is the estate tax isn't necessarily breaking small farmers, if their estate comes out to less than $5 million they not even hit by it and I don't think for those that are affected its not going to be by much unless they truly have a massive estate.

And as has been stated, farms can pay the estate tax over time in installments. If they can't then they sell the land and it comes under new management. The breaking up of landed estate is one of the benefits of the estate tax, not one of its downsides.

I never said they're living like Jay Z so what are you on about there?

Apologies as I misread to you calling their farm an estate as in them living in luxury, as opposed to a taxable estate in your post.

But you're still admitting they have to sell it to keep it, which is my point from the start in post #21. It's outrageous, and I've seen it happen with both farms and other businesses. It's sad, frankly. And it concentrates more wealth in those with the wealth to purchase part or all of their estate from them, often at sub-market prices as they may be over a barrel at that point.

That's all I'm saying. You have to raise the bar WAY up for the exemption to prevent this. That is my point. How high we need to raise it is where it gets messy. I am of very modest means, but I don't begrudge someone who inherits a $20M farm or a $40M manufacturing business and want them to be forced to sell to TRULY wealthy people because they can't afford to keep it if it is also their own life's work.

As I mentioned previously, it's a very complicated issue.
 
Disproportionate amount of wealth is usually the byproduct of tax evasion in the first place.

If they can amass such fortune with US in the 60s level taxation, then more power to them.
I think its the other way around. People who have a lot of capital are usually more able and informed in the ways to avoid paying taxes.

In the case of Latin America I don't think tax evasion is the source of the disparity, its rooted in the history. The whole place was a bunch of colonial fiefdoms with most of the population being disenfranchised and land being controlled by a precious few and that's how it was run for centuries. That creates a kind of inertia for the oligarchy that takes a lot of time and effort to overcome and I think polices like the estate tax should be a part of that effort.
 
The other thing to consider is that it really only hits "normal" people with very successful or valuable businesses. The "ultra"-wealthy get out of it, anyway. Case in point: I remember when Malcolm Forbes died and was worth like a billion dollars. So the estate tax was $500M to Steve Forbes. He and his attorneys argued that the one billion number was grossly inflated, they estimated his father's net worth to be more like $88M and were prepared to cut a check for $44M immediately if that settled the matter once and for all. What do you think the government/IRS said?
"Gimme".
That was many years back, but I remember it and it's a good example of how these taxes hit "regular" folks, but the people with real dough and advisors and connections are not treated the same.
 
There shouldn't be an estate tax because all that money was taxed when it was earned initially. Why should that money be taxed again when it's given away to a family member?
 
sure or maybe higher taxes on corporations. Maybe distribution taxes.

Disagree on taxes for corporates. It's a nice idea but profit can to easily be moved.

I'd advocate for businesses to be totally tax free but have to pay for what they use. It would need to be an international system but once adopted in one country the rest would be motivated to follow.

Taxes should and will always fall to citizens.
 
Apologies as I misread to you calling their farm an estate as in them living in luxury, as opposed to a taxable estate in your post.

But you're still admitting they have to sell it to keep it, which is my point from the start in post #21. It's outrageous, and I've seen it happen with both farms and other businesses. It's sad, frankly. And it concentrates more wealth in those with the wealth to purchase part or all of their estate from them, often at sub-market prices as they may be over a barrel at that point.

That's all I'm saying. You have to raise the bar WAY up for the exemption to prevent this. That is my point. How high we need to raise it is where it gets messy. I am of very modest means, but I don't begrudge someone who inherits a $20M farm or a $40M manufacturing business and want them to be forced to sell to TRULY wealthy people because they can't afford to keep it if it is also their own life's work.

As I mentioned previously, it's a very complicated issue.

Yup. But then the problem is if you raise the bar so high it really doesn't yeild much money, instead they would rather paint people with any kind of money bad and lazy and they deserve to have their money taken.
 
Disagree on taxes for corporates. It's a nice idea but profit can to easily be moved.

I'd advocate for businesses to be totally tax free but have to pay for what they use. It would need to be an international system but once adopted in one country the rest would be motivated to follow.

Taxes should and will always fall to citizens.

Problem is there would always be one small island that doesn't support those rules and everyone would incorporate there. Everyone already incorporates in Delaware because of whatever they do there.
 
Here's a chart showing our income inequality reaching escape velocity. I would like to see the chart see the two vectors approach something more equitable.
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Again, only one desperate for their own abjection would support people like the uber rich.
Once again what number should the rate be? I can get you a graph of average donkey tail length if you want
 
Once again what number should the rate be? I can get you a graph of average donkey tail length if you want

In the structure of wealth inequality within a first world economy, your asking for "a number" seems reductive and childish. Especially so, in service of your noble patrician's argument.
 
Thats ridiculous. Work and wealth are not correlary. Some of the wealthiest people have never worked a day in their lives and there are many hard working poor people.

There aren't enough hours in a lifetime for a CEO to work 275 times harder than their average employee.


Work smarter, not harder. Or work smarter and harder.
 
In the FY 2018 budget there was a repeal of the estate tax, essentially giving the two richest families in the country a $92 Billion tax break.

The estate tax only applies to the top two tenths of the top 1% of the country. Is this a morally defensible move in a period where cuts are being made to medicare and social security?


I kinda feel like the estate tax is one of the most important taxes in the country. Its like a patch being released to fix a broken character in a game. It fixes a glitch of extreme wealth concentration to avoid a capitalist form of royal-like dynasties.

How do you guys feel about the estate tax in general? Do you believe a $92 Billion dollar tax break should be given to 6 people so they can pass fortunes on in perpetuity?
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They would also have more assets to defend. Which means more state protection is necessary.

In 2015 alone, the taxpayers subsidized Walmarts labor costs by $6.3 Billion in the form of food stamps, medicaid and housing programs because they refuse to pay livable wages in urban and developed areas.

It should be illegal to pay a full-time worker $300 a week after taxes when the cheapest available apartments in the city go for $1200 a month.

I am certain those Walmart employees who gather food stamps also somehow afford to buy iPhones and televisions and other luxuries. I knew people at my old job who got EBT and yet they could somehow afford to buy Starbucks everyday, and somehow had nice cars. Don't blame Walmart for our government's problem of getting fleeced by greedy people.
 
Apologies as I misread to you calling their farm an estate as in them living in luxury, as opposed to a taxable estate in your post.

But you're still admitting they have to sell it to keep it, which is my point from the start in post #21. It's outrageous, and I've seen it happen with both farms and other businesses. It's sad, frankly. And it concentrates more wealth in those with the wealth to purchase part or all of their estate from them, often at sub-market prices as they may be over a barrel at that point.

That's all I'm saying. You have to raise the bar WAY up for the exemption to prevent this. That is my point. How high we need to raise it is where it gets messy. I am of very modest means, but I don't begrudge someone who inherits a $20M farm or a $40M manufacturing business and want them to be forced to sell to TRULY wealthy people because they can't afford to keep it if it is also their own life's work.

As I mentioned previously, it's a very complicated issue.
Before it was abolished the estate tax affected only a very tiny minority of farms as most farms are small enough to avoid the estate tax altogether and even among those that made the cut off only some would end up paying any taxes after deductions are calculated. And as I said earlier even if they have to sell of their land to pay the estate tax its not necessarily to larger corporations like you're assuming, could be to small farmers who only want relatively smaller plots of land and who make up the majority of farmers.

I don't begrudge people who simply inherit their wealth for that reason alone. They're taking advantage of what they're born into, we all do this to some extent. I was born a US citizen and that gives me huge advantages over the rest of the world. And personally if I could afford it I'd want a massive landed estate myself.

The reason I support the estate tax is because I think wealth inequality and the concentration of wealth into fewer hands is just bad for society even if the individual actors who are rich could be good people. It makes the market less meritocratic after a certain point and it correlates with higher levels of violence. That said I don't want total wealth equality either, at some point reducing wealth inequality will have diminishing returns and its own downsides but I think we are closer to the opposite problem in the US at this point.
 
There are mega rich in America because our system allows those who work hard to be rewarded for their effort. Those people having that money does not stop anyone from earning their own wealth. I’ve posted statistics regarding how 1% of the population pays a massively impropritonate amount of income taxes. Even with this inequality they are able to succeed and acquire wealth but that doesn’t mean they deserve to be punished for their success. Everyone should contribute equally.

None of you jealous thieves have ever posted anything factual regarding how these people having money hurts anyone. It doesn’t hinder your chance of success and it doesn’t hinder mine.

So it is your concept of fairness that supports your view, nothing more.

Wealth concentration lowers growth, reduces recession protection, reduces social harmony, and increases corruption.

Your concept of fairness doesn't really stack up against those real measurable and basically undisputable negatives.
 
I am certain those Walmart employees who gather food stamps also somehow afford to buy iPhones and televisions and other luxuries. I knew people at my old job who got EBT and yet they could somehow afford to buy Starbucks everyday, and somehow had nice cars. Don't blame Walmart for our government's problem of getting fleeced by greedy people.

You're right. The working poor have way too much. Cutting the corporate tax rate 40% wasn't enough. Lets increase the taxes on the poor even further. Why the hell can they afford a phone that they get for free for signing a contract designed to exploit them, right?

Its amazing how corporatist propaganda can make people this stupid.

People who work full time dont deserve phones now. Its the most retarded thing i've heard since Fox news complained that 97% of poor people have refrigerators.

We are literally on the brink of an era where it is not worth the time investment to work anymore.
 
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