Kendo: the shift in Karate mentality

[shincheckin]

In Kyokushin it depends on the dojos and tournaments but it's not rare to fight without shin pads. In my dojo shin pads were frown upon as something for the weak, while in some other dojos they wouldn't let you spar without them.

Most of the Kyokushin tournaments there are no shin pads though.

i woudlnt see anything wrong with sparring with them or even your first few fights with them on, just like MT

 

[ARIZE]

If anything it's a good representation of how the average karateka tends to be slightly more educated than the average boxer

yes I did go there!

OH NO YOU DIDN'T

If you guys spend more time training, instead of reading, you might have developed a useful martial art...

And if you're just "slightly" more educated than us, I feel sorry for you guys... We are completely boneheads, making you just regular boneheads... Nothing to brag about...

PS: @j123 You foking traitor...

 

[j123]

OH NO YOU DIDN'T

If you guys spend more time training, instead of reading, you might have developed a useful martial art...

And if you're just "slightly" more educated than us, I feel sorry for you guys... We are completely boneheads, making you just regular boneheads... Nothing to brag about...

PS: @j123 You foking traitor...

wut?

 

[AshiharaFan]

And there is no question that the tournament rules shaped karate into what it is.

I 2nd this observation.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Bingo!
http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=6533

The first recorded "bogu kumite" tournament is from 1927 at the Tokyo Imperial University:

"In 1927 the Karate Kenkyūkai 唐手研究会 of Tōkyō Imperial University independently devised Bōgu-tsuki Karate and performed karate matches with it. This was spearheaded by Bō Hideo 坊秀男 (1904–1990), later president of the Wadōkai and Japanese Minister of Finance. Funakoshi, the shihan at the time, was enraged about this move."

(not surprisingly)

Funakoshi vehemently opposed free sparring.

 

[Tayski]

Early teens, I lived in a ghetto in France. There, MT was a huge deal... So I learned to respect it from early on, even if I started it a lot latter. I don't even remember anyone training in KB actually... It was all about Boxing, MT, and savate. Savate was strange, because it was not very respected as an art, but the guys training it were, since a lot of theme came from the ghetto too...
Then, in the other side, you had Judo (huge), TKD, and Karate. No wrestling, no bjj. I'm talking about 90's.
MMA was not really a thing, we would hear about some cage fighting, but it was for some crazy Russians, completely underground stuff, alongside with dog fighting. (at least that's what we thought).

I didn't know you lived in France.

I also lived in a French ghetto in my early life. I wouldn't say that MT was a huge deal or popular but it definitely was respected, basically any type of boxing was respected; English Boxing (known as Western Boxing), French Boxing (Savate), etc.

Actually where I grew up even Karate wasn't made fun of, as most of the participants would be tough guys too, hence why my parents were reluctant to let me train in martial arts when I was very young.

lol

Chok Dee is actually a pretty good movie!

 

[Tayski]

i woudlnt see anything wrong with sparring with them or even your first few fights with them on, just like MT

They're becoming the norm in more and more dojos nowadays.

For tournaments, some organisations have a novice section for newcomers where shinpads are worn.

 

[AshiharaFan]

"It must be emphasized that sparring does not exist apart from the kata but for the practice of kata, so naturally there should be no corrupting influence on one's kata from sparring practice. When one becomes enthusiastic about sparring, there is a tendency for his kata to become bad., Karate, to the very end, should be practiced with kata as the principal method and sparring as a supporting method." - Funakoshi.

Funakoshi's rage imho was well placed. There's a lot of wisdom in that quote I just came across. Funakoshi seems well aware that your perception of the application of Kata is influenced by the sparring ruleset you went by - which was corrupting because you get multiple varying applications based on what works in each ruleset - the actual point of kata - self defence gets muddied in the process. He's advocating that Kata should inform your kumite - not that kumite should mold your kata.

He's describing the issue Karate has right now. Lots of different bunkai applications for the same kata depending on style/ruleset. This is probably why he was against competition when it was being introduced because it probably came at the cost of kata. You have to say he was right though - most people have no idea about the forms they learn including me. It's because kumite became the principle method - great for competition - and kata took the back seat. To the degree that hardly anyone really knows what's going in a large portion of kata.

Wado-ryu Karateka always had free sparring as part of their training. There's the story of Hidenori Otsuka's top student engaging in a free sparring match with Funakoshi and wiping the floor with him. This enraged Gigo Funakoshi (Gichin's son) and was one of the reasons he included free sparring in his teaching of Shotokan Karate.

I bring this up to illustrate how the complete lack of some form of sparring can possibly be viewed by some people as detrimental to applicable fighting abilities.

 

[ARIZE]

I also lived in a French ghetto in my early life. I wouldn't say that MT was a huge deal or popular but it definitely was respected, basically any type of boxing was respected; English Boxing (known as Western Boxing), French Boxing (Savate), etc.

Actually where I grew up even Karate wasn't made fun of, as most of the participants would be tough guys too, hence why my parents were reluctant to let me train in martial arts when I was very young.

Huge deal was an exaggeration, and probably at different places MT had different impact (south suburbs of Paris here, 92 represent). But as you said, we had English Boxing, French Boxing, and Thai Boxing... From those three, i remember that the MT guys were the most respected around our place. And every one knew what MT was. I've said it before, but for me, France has/had the best MT training, outside Thailand... Obviously I haven't trained in every country in the world, but I've been around, and from what i hear from other guys, that's the impression I got.

As for karate, I've got a completely different view... It was for "rich" kids. Rich been anyone not from the ghetto. I honestly don't remember anyone I knew doing any "kimono" art. But i have no doubt than in some other ghettos, you had different mentality about it...

I don't know if you have any knowledge about the gangs back then? Specially late 80's? If you had some members training in some art, then that art was the shit... So if you had any BD training karate around your part for example, then Karate would be automatically respected...


@j123
Don't act like you didn't put a "like" at Tayski burn... You focking traitor...

 

[shincheckin]

@Tayski

i dont speak french, still watched chok dee in french and it was still a good movie

@ARIZE

Your right about france having a high skill level of MT outside of thailand. I dont know if france is the best (could very well be possible) but it would be interesting to see how france compares agianst the other top countires, austrailia,uk, etc.

France colonized cambodia, so they got exposed to "muay thai" that way I would imagine.

 

[Azam]

what karate styles fight without shin pads? kyokushin? sometimes i see pads underneath the pants

I think nearly all styles spar with shin pads on - unless you go to a hardcore kyokushin gym like @Tayski lool. It's not the norm though - usually sparring is always with shin pads. Competition is another thing though.

 

[Azam]

Oh and I can definitely 100% agree with this! Abernethy is actually doing what I think Funakoshi had in mind - he calls it *Kata-based sparring*.

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/kata-based-sparring

PODCASTS:

Kata Based Sparring Principles: http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-principles

Kata Based Sparring Structure: http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-structure

I wouldn't do Kata based sparring the way he would though. I see a lot of instructors teach sequential kata principles/combinations - like for example what you see in 2 partner kata drills but applied to kumite. I don't think that's the best way to do it - personally - just an opinion. It's like trying to force an L shape puzzle piece - into a puzzle where the only opening is Y shaped.

I think all you need to do is extract the information from the kata - then apply it - in non-sequential form in kumite.

That should be the goal - in my mind. That way sparring is free flowing and instinctive. I think trying to follow pre-arranged patterns in kumite is very difficult.

 

[Azam]

The bogu kumite of Mabuni and other Okinawan styles still arguably "came from" Japan since that's where people first got the idea to use bogu armor for Karate sparring. Okinawan Shito and Goju have succumbed to "Japanese" point fighting eventually, as evident by their inclusion in the WKF.

Not that I'm particularly happy about that, actually I would prefer it the other way around - if Okinawan continuous bogu kumite rules prevailed over the Japanese point fighting, modern Karate worldwide would probably look much more like Kudo and much less like a game of tag.

I can't agree nor disagree with you about kendo influencing Funakoshi's Karate due to Asato's teachings - I think it's plausible but we really don't know enough about Asato to even imagine what his Karate looked like. It's an astounding mystery BTW, even looking at books, Wikipedia and web resources - we have a ton of info on Itosu and even Sokon Matsumura but barely anything about Asato!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankō_Asato

True it did - but that's why I find it interesting: competitions in Japan were literally Kendo influenced - in Okinawa though it was the opposite. Yes they took bogu gear from Kendo - but they didn't follow point fighting rules from what I've read. Bogu kumite was popular and the rules weren't inspired by Kendo just the protective equipment (no other style had protective equipment applicable to Karate sparring). There was a considerable degree of contact in bogu kumite (arguably full contact) - and grappling was allowed.

Yes unfortunately they have succumbed to japanese point fighting - but I think that's a result of the introduction of Kendo & Karate to the Okinawan school system. Plus with it's popularity - it inevitably worked its way in. Much like Karate's inclusion into the olympics has made many Karate styles that are fundamentally different competition wise (kyokushin for example) - offer point fighting in the hopes of representing at the olympics.

Of course. It's just my personal view based on what I've read - conclusions I've drawn. It's difficult to know and I could be wrong but I feel the evidence is way too circumstantial for their not to be a connection somehow. There has to be some rapport or similarities already - otherwise why Kendo? Students also practiced Judo, Sumo, jujutsu etc.

I think as well that Funakoshi's ideas of Karate might have been fundamentally different to many Okinawan karate masters. You remember the shorin & shorei ryu controversy? Where Funakoshi stated that Shorin was best suited to small/quick fighters and shorei to stocky/strong fighters. Many Okinawan Karate masters vehemently disagreed with his classifications.

Those classifications of Shorei & Shorin ryu reportedly came from Asato. This is why I feel Asato had a very understated influence on Funakoshi - and his Kenjutsu also had an understated influence. At least when I read "Karate-Do My Way Of Life" by Funakoshi - this is what I felt after reading it. That some influence was already there and it wasn't just Kendo competition.

If you're interested here is an excerpt:

Spoiler

It was the Shorei and Shorin classification of styles (ryu) that Funakoshi followed. He characterized them as follows. Funakoshi said that "Shorei-ryu is suitable for people of large build, whereas Shorin-ryu is suitable for those of smaller frames, less physically powerful or thin, like a willow. For basic posture, Shorei- ryu is good, but it lacks the speed necessary for a real confrontation. Shorin-ryu is quick, but if the practitioner is grabbed, they will be unable to move. Therefore, for those who aspire to practice karate, it is important to pick up the good points of each." (Funakoshi 1922, pp. 5-6)

This specific classification, i.e. dividing Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu by the body types of the practitioners, can be traced as far back as 1914, when Funakoshi penned an article on karate for the Ryukyu Shinpo newspaper, based on the lectures of his main teacher Anko Asato, and writing under his pen name Shoto. While it is true that Funakoshi's other main teacher Anko Itosu, had also stated that there were two "styles" of karate, Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu, in his 1908 letter addressed to the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of War, he never characterized them as relating to body types. The famous Okinawan Bubishi also mentions Shorinji-ryu and Shoreiji-ryu (see, for example, Mabuni, 1934), but again, does not state the differences between the two.

Indeed, other prominent teachers of the day also took exception to Funakoshi's classification. In 1930, Chojun Miyagi was quoted as saying that the breakdown of Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu into kata for differing body types, as Funakoshi did, was unfounded (Miki, et al, 1930). Miyagi also went on to say basically the same thing in his 1934 essay Karatedo Gaisetsu (McCarthy, 1999). At the 1936 "meeting of the masters," he said that the only real difference between Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu lay in their teaching methods (ibid.).

Later, Mabuni Kenwa and his co-author Nakasone Genwa, in their 1938 publication "Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon," also disagreed with Funakoshi's categorizations.

The main thrust of the Mabuni/Nakasone argument is that if this is indeed a valid classification system, then why did Funakoshi change the classifications of certain kata, namely Wanshu (Shorei-ryu to Shorin-ryu), Chinto (Shorei-ryu to Shorin-ryu) and Jitte (Shorei-ryu to Shorin-ryu, than back to Shorei-ryu)?

They also argue that following Funakoshi's classification method, Chojun Miyagi's (founder of Goju karate) brainchild Tensho would clearly belong to the Shorei-ryu. However, as Mabuni (founder of Shito-Ryu karate) and Nakasone (a famous Tomari/Matsumura karate-ka) state, Tensho was based on the chapter entitled Rokkishu (showing six open hand positions with some description of their application) in the Bubishi (a once secret text on White Crane and Monk Fist kung fu hand copied and passed among many early Oknawan karate masters), and it is clearly stated within that Rokkishu belongs to the Shorin(ji)ryu (Mabuni et al, 1938).

It is interesting I know. It's just my opinion/view based of what I've read.

You'd think there would be more on Asato given that in his day he was of the peichin class and one of the very few who was taught martial arts training & weapons training as part of his duties. But the only information we have on him - is all from Funakoshi who was his only notable student.

It's also interesting that apparently both Itosu & Asato learnt from Sokon Mastumura - but apparently Asato was the senior student of Sokon Mastumura. Whereas Itosu actually had problems training with Matsumura to the point he left and learnt from someone else (only returning years later). Choki Motobu literally said this in his book & Funakoshi confirmed this in his autobiography.

Very interested stuff imo. Especially when Asato only taught Funakoshi whereas Itosu had a hand in teaching nearly every Karate master on Okinawa.

 

[j123]

@j123
Don't act like you didn't put a "like" at Tayski burn... You focking traitor...

 

[Hotora86]

Wado-ryu Karateka always had free sparring as part of their training. There's the story of Hidenori Otsuka's top student engaging in a free sparring match with Funakoshi and wiping the floor with him. This enraged Gigo Funakoshi (Gichin's son) and was one of the reasons he included free sparring in his teaching of Shotokan Karate.

I bring this up to illustrate how the complete lack of some form of sparring can possibly be viewed by some people as detrimental to applicable fighting abilities.

Absolutely not denying the usefulness of sparring but it looks like every fookin' non-Shotokan style has some sort of story about them "wiping the floor" with Shotokan guys or even Funakoshi himself! With anecdotal evidence, of course.

Let's not forget what kind of a man Funakoshi was - we'd definitely call him "a pacifist" nowadays. Most of you may recall the story when he was jumped by thieves and instead of fighting them, just gave them cookies he had been carrying. His teachers, upon hearing this, exclaimed "Now you understand true Karate!"

And another story:
"Funakoshi Gichin claimed to have used his karate against another person only once and this occurred during World War II when he was attacked by a thief. Funakoshi side stepped, grabbed the man’s testicles and held him in that position until a constable passed by. Although Funakoshi had not started the altercation, all his life he revealed he felt great shame about that day because he hadn’t avoided the confrontation."

Source: https://www.wskf.com.au/funakoshi-gichin/

With this kind of attitude, I have no doubt he would simply turn down any "challenges" from other fighters and let them brag about how they "wiped the floor" with him without much concern. He was a TEACHER, not a fighter - and that's exactly how he wanted to be remembered.

 

[Hotora86]

I wouldn't do Kata based sparring the way he would though. I see a lot of instructors teach sequential kata principles/combinations - like for example what you see in 2 partner kata drills but applied to kumite. I don't think that's the best way to do it - personally - just an opinion. It's like trying to force an L shape puzzle piece - into a puzzle where the only opening is Y shaped.

I think all you need to do is extract the information from the kata - then apply it - in non-sequential form in kumite.

That should be the goal - in my mind. That way sparring is free flowing and instinctive. I think trying to follow pre-arranged patterns in kumite is very difficult.

I agree but as I watch more and more of Abernethy's clips I notice him switching to different kata applications depending on "what the opponent can do". For example, he may be teaching the bunkai for, say, Kanku Dai and at some point he says "but if this doesn't work you can revert to Pinan Shodan or Godan" and reminds people the Pinan Shodan or Godan bunkai both applicable to the new situation.

I think this attitude helps to break away from the "he does this - I do this" one track mind mentality that most beginner student of Karate get when learning bunkai. The possibilities are actually endless and with every new kata you learn a new way of approaching things in general situations. The final effect should be such that you do whatever feels best in a given situation instinctively, since the "body memory" has been drilled into you.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Absolutely not denying the usefulness of sparring but it looks like every fookin' non-Shotokan style has some sort of story about them "wiping the floor" with Shotokan guys or even Funakoshi himself! With anecdotal evidence, of course.

I didn't realize this to be the case and I certainly don't want to seem like I'm one of those people shittin' on Shotokan especially given the admiration and respect I have for the style itself. But in all my years of reading up the different events in the birth or historical development of Karate I don't recall ever reading a Shotokan enthusiast outright deny that story which very well may be an anecdote. I was always of the understanding that there is a Shotokan version of these stories and a non Shotokan version but not outright denial. But even if the story of Gichin was confirmed it wouldn't diminish my respect for him or Shotokan Karate.

Let's not forget what kind of a man Funakoshi was - we'd definitely call him "a pacifist" nowadays. Most of you may recall the story when he was jumped by thieves and instead of fighting them, just gave them cookies he had been carrying. His teachers, upon hearing this, exclaimed "Now you understand true Karate!"

And another story:
"Funakoshi Gichin claimed to have used his karate against another person only once and this occurred during World War II when he was attacked by a thief. Funakoshi side stepped, grabbed the man’s testicles and held him in that position until a constable passed by. Although Funakoshi had not started the altercation, all his life he revealed he felt great shame about that day because he hadn’t avoided the confrontation."

Source: https://www.wskf.com.au/funakoshi-gichin/

With this kind of attitude, I have no doubt he would simply turn down any "challenges" from other fighters and let them brag about how they "wiped the floor" with him without much concern. He was a TEACHER, not a fighter - and that's exactly how he wanted to be remembered.

I agree completely with the pacifist description of Gichin Funakoshi and that too is to be admired. There's nothing impressive about being a savage especially as a Karate practitioner. Now his 3rd son Yoshitaka (Gigo) Funakoshi is usually described as being almost the polar opposite of his father.

I'm aware of that story about the thieves. But I've yet to read Karate-do My Way of Life. Does Gichin himself tell that story in his book?

 

[Azam]

Absolutely not denying the usefulness of sparring but it looks like every fookin' non-Shotokan style has some sort of story about them "wiping the floor" with Shotokan guys or even Funakoshi himself! With anecdotal evidence, of course.

Let's not forget what kind of a man Funakoshi was - we'd definitely call him "a pacifist" nowadays. Most of you may recall the story when he was jumped by thieves and instead of fighting them, just gave them cookies he had been carrying. His teachers, upon hearing this, exclaimed "Now you understand true Karate!"

I didn't realize this to be the case and I certainly don't want to seem like I'm one of those people shittin' on Shotokan especially given the admiration and respect I have for the style itself. But in all my years of reading up the different events in the birth or historical development of Karate I don't recall ever reading a Shotokan enthusiast outright deny that story which very well may be an anecdote. I was always of the understanding that there is a Shotokan version of these stories and a non Shotokan version but not outright denial. But even if the story of Gichin was confirmed it wouldn't diminish my respect for him or Shotokan Karate.

Yeah nearly all the shotokan based stories about wiping the floor with Gigo Funakoshi or Gichin Funakoshi - are a bunch of BS. It's easily proven by just cross-referencing dates (in most cases) and using the noggin'.

Gichin Funakoshi was 54 years old when he first relocated to Japan to start teaching. Hinonori Otsuka started training the same year Funakoshi relocated to Japan in 1922. He left Funakoshi around the early 1930's. By then Funakoshi was in his mid 60's - already an old man. That combined with the fact that Gichin Funakoshi was a pacifist - makes it very highly unlikely to be true.

If the story is true - it means Hironori's student beat up and old man which is pretty damn disgraceful if true - but it's most likely BS. Also this is 1940's Japan - in a country with Asian culture (that's similar across the board) - and challenging someone older than you especially back then - is very disrespectful and ain't a good look. So it makes it even more unlikely.

It's just the same BS story in Kyokushin of So Nei Cho beating Gigo Funakoshi. Again the dates don't correlate as Gigo had tuberculosis & died at the end of WW2 - between 1944 & 1945 - he was barely training anymore. Mas Oyama only started training shotokan (according to Japanese sources) in 1943. Also you read on kyokushin websites that Oyama was instructed by Funakoshi - again not true. According to Funakoshi himself - he had already stopped teaching & was focused on spreading Karate when Oyama began shotokan training. Not really shocking as he was 75 years old in 1943.

Now his 3rd son Yoshitaka (Gigo) Funakoshi is usually described as being almost the polar opposite of his father.
I'm aware of that story about the thieves. But I've yet to read Karate-do My Way of Life. Does Gichin himself tell that story in his book?

From what I've read his son was a proponent of free sparring. He might have still shared some of his fathers traits - who knows.

Yes he does tell a story where he beat up a thief in Karate-do My Way of Life. If you haven't read the book - I'd highly recommend it. You get a real idea behind the thinking, influences, principles/morals & history of Karate from his childhood to old age. There are some sad bits as well where he talks about his lows & there are a lot (during both world wars). He sacrificed a lot to spread Karate (not sure if I could have done what he did) and he didn't really make a lot financially from it.

 

[Hotora86]

I didn't realize this to be the case and I certainly don't want to seem like I'm one of those people shittin' on Shotokan especially given the admiration and respect I have for the style itself. But in all my years of reading up the different events in the birth or historical development of Karate I don't recall ever reading a Shotokan enthusiast outright deny that story which very well may be an anecdote. I was always of the understanding that there is a Shotokan version of these stories and a non Shotokan version but not outright denial. But even if the story of Gichin was confirmed it wouldn't diminish my respect for him or Shotokan Karate.

I agree completely with the pacifist description of Gichin Funakoshi and that too is to be admired. There's nothing impressive about being a savage especially as a Karate practitioner. Now his 3rd son Yoshitaka (Gigo) Funakoshi is usually described as being almost the polar opposite of his father.

I'm aware of that story about the thieves. But I've yet to read Karate-do My Way of Life. Does Gichin himself tell that story in his book?

Looks like @Azam clarified that for you. Thanks Azam, we can always count on you scholarly prowess.

I actually own a copy of "Karate-do My Way of Life" but I lent it to a classmate of mine like 8 years ago and haven't seen it (or him) since... Gonna have to find the bastard and politely ask the crap outta him.

Glad to see respect between styles here. I also respect Kyokushin and Ashihara very much, you guys are tough as nails.

 

[AshiharaFan]

This is why young people (children and early teenagers) should not be exposed to fables, legendary folklore and anecdotes because a lot of them don't have the maturity to truly think critically and play devil's advocate. These are the stories I've learned and read when I first gain interest in Karate and the martial arts at 14 years of age. It has only been within the last decade that I finally dismissed a lot of "anecdotes" that I used to believe at face value concerning the superhuman feats of Sosai Oyama.