SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 102: A Clockwork Orange

Shouldn't we have a ranking of Kubrick movies? We did Spielberg as an example, but since a Kubrick film won the battle royale, and he's now the most featured director in this club, I feel we should do a ranking of Kubrick movies. He only made 13 so may as well rank whatever you've seen rather than a top 10.

13. Fear and Desire
12. Killer's Kiss
11. Spartacus
10. Lolita
9. The Killing
8. Paths of Glory
7. The Shining
6. Eyes Wide Shut
5. Full Metal Jacket
4. A Clockwork Orange
3. 2001
2. Dr. Strangelove
1. Barry Lyndon

1. Orange
2. Jacket
3. Shut
4. Shining
5. Strangelove
6. 2001
 
There's some insightful stuff here on what makes Alex more palatable as the anti-hero. This addresses it quite nicely.





Who were the great anti-heroes prior to this film? For me The Dirty Dozen immediately springs to mind.
 
Like Alex I also have a great fondness for the music of Beethoven, and the Ninth Symphony in particular (never jerked off to it though). It's rather ironic that Alex loves this particular composition so much, considering that Beethoven's message in including Friedrich Schiller's poem Ode to Joy was one of universal brotherhood and peace. The lady at the milkbar was singing about happy things, yet the result is that it leads to confrontation when Dim scoffs at it which prompts Alex to strike him with his cane. This of course leads to them making demands of Alex, which in turn causes him to assert his dominance, leading to their betrayal, his incarceration, and his "treatment."

This movie used an electronic arrangement of the Turkish March from the fourth movement of the symphony, made by Wendy Carlos, who also made the electronic arrangement of the Purcell march for the opening theme, and later worked on The Shining. It plays when Alex is in the record store and again during the Nazi videos. It's what causes him to freak out about using Beethoven's music in such a way. Ironic considering he had no trouble reconciling his own violent tendencies with his love of Beethoven.

An electronic arrangement of the second movement of the Ninth Symphony was also used, specifically when Alex is locked in the room above the writer's house being tortured by the music, just before he jumps out of the window. I don't really like to listen to these electronic versions on my own time, but they work very well in this movie.

btw I love the Alex at the end calls it the Dreaded Ninth Symphony. Very fitting for the minister to bring in large speakers playing this same music after Alex has been cured, and in the original version as well.
-His counselor, Mr. Deltoid, realizes he's a troubled youth, but he doesn't actually try to give him any real guidance outside of warning Alex that what he's doing will get him in trouble
The way that guy talks drives me crazy. I met you mother on the way to work, YESSSSS? She said something about a pain somewhere, hence not at school, YESSSSS? stfu
That main prison guard may by my favorite part of the film. His sudden outburst of shouted anger are hilarious.
Something that made me laugh much more this time than previous viewings was when the guard takes him to the treatment center, and when Alex walks up he mocks the guard by doing the super exaggerated marching motion with his legs just before he halts.
Was Kubrick a religious person?
An atheist Jew
In terms of removing the last chapter(or rather preferring the US version without it he first read) I think your really highlighting Kubrick's nature from at least Strangelove onwards. He's really not someone looking to push what he views as a "correct message" so much as he is a cynic being critical of what he views as societies ill's.

I think that's probably most clear in Clockwork Orange as it arguably has the widest view of society of any Kubrick film and takes aim at pretty much everyone. There's not really a side to root for here for me, the establishment that created a dystopia then looks to first take away Alex's free will then potentially looses him on society again when its politically expedient, the opposition that's only interested in using him as a political tool and then turns on him for personal revenge and Alex himself who represents individualism taken to a selfish extreme.

Don't think that's nihilism so much as simply choosing to focus on the critical outlook.
Agreed. A big part of why I like his films so much.
 
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There's some insightful stuff here on what makes Alex more palatable as the anti-hero. This addresses it quite nicely.

Pauline Kael was such a hack critic.
Who were the great anti-heroes prior to this film? For me The Dirty Dozen immediately springs to mind.
I like that movie. They're more like losers who become heroes though aren't they?
GOAT on GOAT?
pygmy-on-mothers-back.jpg
 
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It's what causes him to freak out about using Beethoven's music in such a way. Ironic considering he had no trouble reconciling his own violent tendencies with his love of Beethoven.

Wasn't the Beethoven reaction associated with the feeling of vitamin-induced sickness, not the violent imagery? Maybe I'm not sure what you're trying to reconcile. :oops:


Something that made me laugh much more this time than previous viewings was when the guard takes him to the treatment center, and when Alex walks up he mocks the guard by doing the super exaggerated marching motion with his legs just before he halts.

We rewound that part it was so much fun. Wasn't sure if it was a show of mocking (representing his unbroken spirit) or protocol ( representing him having been a model prisoner). Didn't care. It was great.

Another little Alex moment I love is after the guard says "Pick it up and put it down properly". When placing the chocolate down gently, it's perfect how he taps it and the look on his face. McDowell always seemed mediocre in other roles. :(
 
Wasn't the Beethoven reaction associated with the feeling of vitamin-induced sickness, not the violent imagery?
That's part of it yeah. But the first thing he starts yelling about is that it's a "sin" to use Beethoven's music as the background score for atrocities because "Beethoven never hurt anybody, he just made music." Yet he himself would arrive home from beating and raping people to bask in the glorious Ludwig van.
 
That's part of it yeah. But the first thing he starts yelling about is that it's a "sin" to use Beethoven's music as the background score for atrocities because "Beethoven never hurt anybody, he just made music." Yet he himself would arrive home from beating and raping people to bask in the glorious Ludwig van.

Gotcha. Too me it's a little vague.

DR. BRODSKY
What's all this about sin?

ALEX
That!... Using Ludwig van like that! He did no harm to anyone.
Beethoven just wrote music.

What exactly is "that"? To me it's using Beethoven in a situation he's being made to feel uncomfortable in. Not so much he thinks it's a sin for Beethoven being played over Nazi imagery.

ALEX (V.O.)
It had been a wonderful evening and what I needed now to give it the
perfect ending was a bit of the old Ludwig van.
Music starts.

ALEX (V.O.)
Then, brothers, it came. O bliss, bliss and heaven, oh it was
gorgeousness and georgeosity made flesh. The trombones crunched redgold
under my bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise, silver-
flamed and there by the door the timps rolling through my guts and out
again, crunched like candy thunder. It was like a bird of rarest spun
heaven metal or like silvery wine flowing in a space ship, gravity all
nonsense now. As I slooshied, I knew such lovely pictures. There were
veeks and ptitsas laying on the ground screaming for mercy and I was
smecking all over my rot and grinding my boot into their tortured
litsos and there were naked devotchkas ripped and creeching against
walls and I plunging like a shlaga into them.

Here it's not sin for it to be the soundtrack to his own mind's atrocious imagery. That's why I think it's the association with the physical sickness he's referring to and not so much the Lovely Ludwig being paired with the imagery. If I'm wrong though, yeah. He'd be a bit of a hypocrite at worst and self-serving at best. Neither seems out of character. :D
 
One odd thing that I have been thinking about...

When Alex is back at the authors house -- He is given a bath. In said bath he sings "Singing in the Rain." Now, no doubt he does this because he recalls doing that when he first plundered the place. But... shouldn't that trigger his conditioning? That song and the actions he did during that night should be thoroughly interlaced in his memory. Just by singing it, shouldn't he in his mind eye be thinking about the rape and abuse he dealt out?



Btw. One time I was trying to hit on a girl back in high school. She was really bookish but also cute as a button. I approached her when she was searching for something new to read amongst the bookshelf. We started talking. She took out A Clockwork Orange and asked me if I had read it. I said that I had and also added that I thought it was downright superb, one of my favorites.

Then she asked what it was about -- so naturally I told her.

Needless to say she wasn't very conversational afterwards.:D



You could argue to some degree the film(and previously book) is actually playing around with the standards of fiction, pushing against the typical focus on getting the audience to empathise with the protagonist

I think this is one of those themes that is stronger and more thorough in the book. There we see everything from Alex's vantage point -- and much of the text is basically him justifying what he's doing. That way you grow into this realization that you're reading about a guy whose trying to present himself in a favorable light. That's particuarly apperent when he kills the artist -- since his justification is so week and flimpsy that it's practically see-through.

While with the film, the "objectivity" of the movie-frame as well as the decadent production design and fleshing-out of other characters makes that fall by the wayside somewhat.


Not so much symbolism as it is that dudes like titties

Thanks. But this really just serves to validate the already established fact that dudes like pussy. This movies is about Alex and his viewpoint. There's other movies suited to highlight the feminist perspective. This isn't one of them. There's lots of issues the film doesn't deal with. Makes most sense to focus on those it does.

giphy.gif


Did you read that article? It's positive towards the film and it's use of nudity. And it did point out some of the symbolism going on with the mammaries. Throughout the first part of the film there are a lot of focus on udders. When Alex goes through the brainwashing -- and he's confronted with the nude woman on the stage -- it's her bulging bazookas that he instrinctually searches to maul, his inability to do so highlighting his loss of control (instead of say, trying to rape her).

It's a classic way of symbolism, accentuating something through the narrative and then bringing them back to make a character point.

To him, breasts had been a symbol of some sort of assurance that his life was in his own control, that he held influence over pleasures and personal rewards whether he was conscious of this or not. It had rarely ever occurred to him, if ever, any possibility of something taking away this power of choice that wasn’t death. Being forced to stare at his own tool of comfort only to be caused nothing but sickness and pain was torturous and, in his eyes, a thousand times more evil then anything he had ever done.
But this ain't no Peckinpah flick when it comes to blood-letting.

This brings to my attention that this club hasn't watched a single Peckinpah flick.

e3de6d01672c80eb911687827a3fd98a9aa0838755f6f0fd4884e753ac3e29e0.jpg


Alex to me feels like a merger of 60's counter culture and such a philosophical view

It's interesting that the novel came out in 1962. Kids weren't even carring about the Beatles yet at that point. The counter-culture really hadn't taken off much by that date. Burguss was waaay ahead of the curve.

May-perhaps it was due to the population boom (an huge amount of teenagers) and many lower-class segments of society recieving more thorough schooling (meaning they and their rowdy ways were apparent to the rest of society to an extent which they hadn't been previously).

Maybe in the book since Alex actually chooses to be morally good by story’s end

Well I wouldn't say he chooses. He basically matures. Dude's 15 in the novel. The message in the end is basically that kids grow out of it.

What is the deal with the milk? Is that some sort of latent sperm thing or what are we saying with that?

I think that's sort of a leftover from the novel. In the novel -- there is more of an emphasis on the mental childlikeness of the characters. They eat nothing but sweets and choclate. They are quite capricious and fickle. The drink milk that is literally milked from a woman's teet.

Shouldn't we have a ranking of Kubrick movies?

12. Fear and Desire -6/10
11. The Killing - 8/10
10. Lolita - 8/10
9. Spartacus - 9/10
8. Paths of Glory - 9/10
7. Eyes Wide Shut - 9.5/10
6. A Clockwork Orange - 9.5/10
5. 2001 - 9.5/10
4. Dr. Strangelove - 10/10
3. Barry Lyndon - 10/10
2. Full Metal Jacket - 10/10
1. The Shining - 10/10

The Dirty Dozen

Great film.



The way that guy talks drives me crazy. I met you mother on the way to work, YESSSSS? She said something about a pain somewhere, hence not at school, YESSSSS? stfu

Smarmy basterd.

during the Nazi videos

An interesting tidbit -- the gang that Alex and his droogs fight in the opening wear Nazi insignia.

IlluminatiWatcherDotCom-Clockwork-Orange-Theater-Rape-Nazis.jpg


Who were the great anti-heroes prior to this film?

The Man With No Name is probably the most obvious example.

Ethan in The Searchers

Nemuri Kyoshiro from the Sleepy Eyes of Death seires.

Maybe Bogart in The Maltese Falcon fits the bill?

Bonnie And Clyde, the crew from The Wild Bunch as well as Ryunosuke from Sword of Doom
(though those examples might be straight-up villians... especially that last one)
 
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GOAT on GOAT?



Performances like Jack in the Shining for me just highlight that Kubrick from Strangelove onwards always had a strongly comic element to his films, poking fun at established genre standards.

I actually think that Kubrick's desire to "change the form" has born most fruit since his death, elegantly composed art films with strongly dark comic elements have become far more popular in the last 10-15 years, Lanthimos especially feels very close in style.
 
One odd thing that I have been thinking about...

When Alex is back at the authors house -- He is given a bath. In said bath he sings "Singing in the Rain." Now, no doubt he does this because he recalls doing that when he first plundered the place. But... shouldn't that trigger his conditioning? That song and the actions he did during that night should be thoroughly interlaced in his memory. Just by singing it, shouldn't he in his mind eye be thinking about the rape and abuse he dealt out?



Btw. One time I was trying to hit on a girl back in high school. She was really bookish but also cute as a button. I approached her when she was searching for something new to read amongst the bookshelf. We started talking. She took out A Clockwork Orange and asked me if I had read it. I said that I had and also added that I thought it was downright superb, one of my favorites.

Then she asked what it was about -- so naturally I told her.

Needless to say she wasn't very conversational afterwards.:D





I think this is one of those themes that is stronger and more thorough in the book. There we see everything from Alex's vantage point -- and much of the text is basically him justifying what he's doing. That way you grow into this realization that you're reading about a guy whose trying to present himself in a favorable light. That's particuarly apperent when he kills the artist -- since his justification is so week and flimpsy that it's practically see-through.

While with the film, the "objectivity" of the movie-frame as well as the decadent production design and fleshing-out of other characters makes that fall by the wayside somewhat.






giphy.gif


Did you read that article? It's positive towards the film and it's use of nudity. And it did point out some of the symbolism going on with the mammaries. Throughout the first part of the film there are a lot of focus on udders. When Alex goes through the brainwashing -- and he's confronted with the nude woman on the stage -- it's her bulging bazookas that he instrinctually searches to maul, his inability to do so highlighting his loss of control (instead of say, trying to rape her).

It's a classic way of symbolism, accentuating something through the narrative and then bringing them back to make a character point.




This brings to my attention that this club hasn't watched a single Peckinpah flick.

e3de6d01672c80eb911687827a3fd98a9aa0838755f6f0fd4884e753ac3e29e0.jpg




It's interesting that the novel came out in 1962. Kids weren't even carring about the Beatles yet at that point. The counter-culture really hadn't taken off much by that date. Burguss was waaay ahead of the curve.

May-perhaps it was due to the population boom (an huge amount of teenagers) and many lower-class segments of society recieving more thorough schooling (meaning they and their rowdy ways were apparent to the rest of society to an extent which they hadn't been previously).



Well I wouldn't say he chooses. He basically matures. Dude's 15 in the novel. The message in the end is basically that kids grow out of it.



I think that's sort of a leftover from the novel. In the novel -- there is more of an emphasis on the mental childlikeness of the characters. They eat nothing but sweets and choclate. They are quite capricious and fickle. The drink milk that is literally milked from a woman's teet.



12. Fear and Desire -6/10
11. The Killing - 8/10
10. Lolita - 8/10
9. Spartacus - 9/10
8. Paths of Glory - 9/10
7. Eyes Wide Shut - 9.5/10
6. A Clockwork Orange - 9.5/10
5. 2001 - 9.5/10
4. Dr. Strangelove - 10/10
3. Barry Lyndon - 10/10
2. Full Metal Jacket - 10/10
1. The Shining - 10/10



Great film.





Smarmy basterd.



An interesting tidbit -- the gang that Alex and his droogs fight in the opening wear Nazi insignia.

IlluminatiWatcherDotCom-Clockwork-Orange-Theater-Rape-Nazis.jpg




The Man With No Name is probably the most obvious example.

Ethan in The Searchers

Nemuri Kyoshiro from the Sleepy Eyes of Death seires.

Maybe Bogart in The Maltese Falcon fits the bill?

Bonnie And Clyde, the crew from The Wild Bunch as well as Ryunosuke from Sword of Doom
(though those examples might be straight-up villians... especially that last one)

Yea but the milk is laced with drugs. I'm not sure if this is Kubrick making a statement about the correlation between drugs and violence in society or what. If so its a very subtle technique because the milk being drugged is not even noticed by many people.
 
Did you read that article?

Not that I recall. Think I was pretty baked and just got the quick impression it was all weepy like and moved on. Read it now though. Getting into symbolism like that is a little deep for me. No doubt breasts and milk are key elements. What they all add up to I'd need to hear from Burgess or Kubrick before considering it fact.


This brings to my attention that this club hasn't watched a single Peckinpah flick.

If we do and it's one I've seen then please let it be Convoy.


Performances like Jack in the Shining for me just highlight that Kubrick from Strangelove onwards always had a strongly comic element to his films, poking fun at established genre standards.

I actually think that Kubrick's desire to "change the form" has born most fruit since his death, elegantly composed art films with strongly dark comic elements have become far more popular in the last 10-15 years, Lanthimos especially feels very close in style.

Agreed. Comedic darkness is probably why Kubrick is near and dear to my heart as a filmmaker. Never heard of this Lanthimos.
 
Needless to say she wasn't very conversational afterwards.:D

You can actually pinpoint the second when Europe1’s heart rips in half.

tenor.gif


Well I wouldn't say he chooses. He basically matures. Dude's 15 in the novel. The message in the end is basically that kids grow out of it.

Ah. I also remember the youthful halcyon days of beating down homeless people and raping wome- I MEAN EATING CANDY AND PLAYING NINTENDO!
 
One odd thing that I have been thinking about...

When Alex is back at the authors house -- He is given a bath. In said bath he sings "Singing in the Rain." Now, no doubt he does this because he recalls doing that when he first plundered the place. But... shouldn't that trigger his conditioning? That song and the actions he did during that night should be thoroughly interlaced in his memory. Just by singing it, shouldn't he in his mind eye be thinking about the rape and abuse he dealt out?
I guess the only explanation there is not he's not thinking at all about the attack on the writer and his wife. Obviously he already knew the song, perhaps from early childhood. Maybe it's connected to some happy memory from before he became a violent psychopath. So now that he's in a comfortable and safe place he's at ease enough to sing it without any violent associations.

Although really, I've thought of that scene as him gloating that he hasn't been recognized by the writer, and that even though he's helpless in the writer's house, he's been helped and taken care of by him. He thinks he got away with it. Seems like a case where Kubrick just said fuck it, this is how I want to do it. Interesting that it wasn't originally going to happen that way, since the singing of the song during the attack was improvised. In the book Alex gave himself away by saying I thought you didn't have a phone, I wonder if that's how it was originally planned for the movie.

Btw. One time I was trying to hit on a girl back in high school. She was really bookish but also cute as a button. I approached her when she was searching for something new to read amongst the bookshelf. We started talking. She took out A Clockwork Orange and asked me if I had read it. I said that I had and also added that I thought it was downright superb, one of my favorites.

Then she asked what it was about -- so naturally I told her.

Needless to say she wasn't very conversational afterwards.:D
Should have used this line:

Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

Works every time.

There we see everything from Alex's vantage point -- and much of the text is basically him justifying what he's doing. That way you grow into this realization that you're reading about a guy whose trying to present himself in a favorable light. That's particuarly apperent when he kills the artist -- since his justification is so week and flimpsy that it's practically see-through.

While with the film, the "objectivity" of the movie-frame as well as the decadent production design and fleshing-out of other characters makes that fall by the wayside somewhat.
That also applies to Lolita and Barry Lyndon, including the weak justification for terrible acts, and the relative objectivity of the film adaptations.
This brings to my attention that this club hasn't watched a single Peckinpah flick.

e3de6d01672c80eb911687827a3fd98a9aa0838755f6f0fd4884e753ac3e29e0.jpg
What would be a good launching point?
12. Fear and Desire -6/10
11. The Killing - 8/10
10. Lolita - 8/10
9. Spartacus - 9/10
8. Paths of Glory - 9/10
7. Eyes Wide Shut - 9.5/10
6. A Clockwork Orange - 9.5/10
5. 2001 - 9.5/10
4. Dr. Strangelove - 10/10
3. Barry Lyndon - 10/10
2. Full Metal Jacket - 10/10
1. The Shining - 10/10
You saw Fear and Desire but not Killer's Kiss? How strange(love)

The Shining at no. 1 is interesting. For a long time that was a lesser Kubrick to me (while still being top 5 in the horror genre) but I've grown to like it more and more. Went and saw it in the theatres as part of this thing TCM was doing a while ago, that was probably the most I've enjoyed it. Kubrick in the theatre is a special thing.

lmao at four perfect 10s, three 9.5s and two 9s. Only one film lower than 8, that being an early amateur work that he made basically by himself and later disowned. Only Kubrick can pull in those types of numbers.

I take it you're not one of those "people" who say the second half of Full Metal Jacket is bad?


So in the future the Nazis and the Soviets have an inexplicably large influence over the dress and manner of speaking of the youth. We're fucked.
Nemuri Kyoshiro from the Sleepy Eyes of Death seires.
That sounds cool.
Maybe Bogart in The Maltese Falcon fits the bill?
Guy I know you're a puritan, but just because Sam Spade drinks and smokes doesn't mean he's an anti-hero.


Just kidding, he conspires with criminals and lies to the police, he's pretty anti-heroic. The detectives of hard-boiled fiction and their film adaptations are good examples of early anti-heroes. The Maltese Falcon was also a great book btw, the John Huston film is very faithful to it.
 
Singing in the Rain I always took to be used in relating that situation to the songs original use, like Gene Kelly he's basically just giving in to what he enjoys doing rather than making reasoned decisions.
 
You can actually pinpoint the second when Europe1’s heart rips in half.

tenor.gif




Ah. I also remember the youthful halcyon days of beating down homeless people and raping wome- I MEAN EATING CANDY AND PLAYING NINTENDO!

tumblr_inline_p3aof68Q0J1ukzkfl_540.gif


Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

large.jpg


What would be a good launching point?

As always I have an aversion towards rewatch stuff. Cubo mentioned Convoy which I have heard good things about. Guess I want to rewatch Straw Dogs (boy would that be a discussion though).

lmao at four perfect 10s, three 9.5s and two 9s. Only one film lower than 8, that being an early amateur work that he made basically by himself and later disowned. Only Kubrick can pull in those types of numbers.

For sure. Every fantastic director has a few sore spots sprinkled in their otherwise excellent resume. Expect Kubrick. I guess it has a lot to do with the virtually unmatched control he had over his own productions and the time and effort he spent on them.

I suppose Leone would be the only other example of a director that just has no clunkers whatsoever once he really got going. Though he made fewer films.

Colussos of Rhodes - 6/10
A Fistful of Dollars - 8/10
For a Few Dollars More - 9/10
The Good, The Bad, The Ugly - 9/10
Once Upon a Time in the West - 10/10
Duck, You Sucker! - 8/10
Once Upon a Time in the America - 9.5/10

I take it you're not one of those "people" who say the second half of Full Metal Jacket is bad?

When I was young and blind I existed in that darkness -- but now I have seen the light.

As I religiously rewatched the film I found that that was no longer the case. I suppose there is some breaking point where you begin to watch the film on a thematic level instead of a narrative level, and then it just feels so much more cohesive and wholesome.

So in the future the Nazis and the Soviets have an inexplicably large influence over the dress and manner of speaking of the youth. We're fucked.

Yeah but at least we'll look fabulous.

If WW2 was a fashion show we'd all be speaking German by now.

That sounds cool.

Sleepy Eyes of Death has to be one of the worst re-titelings in cinema history, which it was dubed once it hit the US market (originally it was just called Nemuri Kyoshiro -- which is the main characters name). It's a damn good film series though -- the kind that the Japanese were just craking out in the 60's (like the Zatoichi or Shinobi no Mono (Ninja) films series).

I mean... did they just call it "Sleepy Eyes" as a racist joke about asians?:confused:

But yeah, the 60's Nemuri Kyoshiro film series with Ichikawa Raizō are damn good stuff and pretty dark too. They're is freaking 12 films in the series too!:eek:

5710ea8d8131425c0819e5c2de22573d--cinema.jpg


Just kidding, he conspires with criminals and lies to the police, he's pretty anti-heroic. The detectives of hard-boiled fiction and their film adaptations are good examples of early anti-heroes.

Yeah. I love that speech near the end where Borgart talks about avenging his partner -- and he muses on the fact that he seems to feel no personal compulsion to do so except that it is socially expected of him.

The Maltese Falcon was also a great book btw, the John Huston film is very faithful to it.

I tried reading Maltese Falcon and The Big Sleep but gave up early just because of how similar they were to the films.:confused:
 
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For some reason I remember watching Convoy quiet a few times in my youth, indeed might be the first R/15+ rated film I ever saw, probably haven't seen it in 25+ years though.
 
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