Military Roll Call! Veterans, GTFIH!

In my time in SF I've never heard of the dive course using seals as instructors.

"There is a team of SF Combat Divers assigned to SPECWAR in Coronado. The only requirement is you have to be a SF Combat Diver and Combat Diving Supervisor course graduate. The Team is usually not staffed to strength. They are not allowed to directly teach or interact with BUDS students. They are not identified as BUDS Instructors. There are roughly the same amount of SEALS located in Key West supporting the SF Dive school. It is a bone of contention that SF instructors are limited at Coronado while there isn't any restrictions in Key West for SEALS. SF knows SEALS are experts in UWO and they let them participate and teach as much as they want at Key West."
 
Didn't you guys do any water confidence training? That surprises me, I'd think with at least the prospect of river crossings or something like that you'd do at least something. I mean the Marines have a water confidence portion of their basic.

When I switched to Civil Affairs, we fell under the U.S. Army Special Operations Command (USASOC). Part of being SOF qualified was scoring 70% or higher on your APFT, ruck march, and the Water Survival Training. Same thing in IOBC and Ranger school. Jumping off the high board blindfolded with your LBE and weapon was probably the highlight of the test. You could not tell when the board ended, the fall was suppose to be a surprise. Hit the water, go underwater and drop your gear. There was the floating test in BDUs and boots and the swimming test in BDUs and boots. I don't recall the exact time requirements for floating or distance for swimming, but swimming with boots on is definitely a difficult thing to do. I always enjoyed swimming and had no real problems with the test. A few of the guys did not know how to swim or were afraid of water. So, they either fail the test or go through a more specialized training.
 
Good documentary. Live footage. 'Apache Warrior' is a feature-length documentary that puts the viewer inside the cockpit of a U.S. Army Aviation helicopter Squadron as they launch a deep attack during the initial surge into Iraq in March, 2003.

From my point of view a great way into how things can go wrong fast and the numerous mistakes the boys and 'girl' of the 1st Cavalry Division Aviation unit fucked up their planning and logistics. I counted 3 major mistakes made by the assault Squadron going into Iraq.

 
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"There is a team of SF Combat Divers assigned to SPECWAR in Coronado. The only requirement is you have to be a SF Combat Diver and Combat Diving Supervisor course graduate. The Team is usually not staffed to strength. They are not allowed to directly teach or interact with BUDS students. They are not identified as BUDS Instructors. There are roughly the same amount of SEALS located in Key West supporting the SF Dive school. It is a bone of contention that SF instructors are limited at Coronado while there isn't any restrictions in Key West for SEALS. SF knows SEALS are experts in UWO and they let them participate and teach as much as they want at Key West."

Where is that quoted from? And when? There were no seals in key West, none that were affiliated with cdqc at least.
 
When I was young the ruck marches weren't bad. Doing them in my 40's it was my lower back and the the straps digging in my shoulders, my legs weren't the issue they were fine, hell my legs aren't the issue when I do heavy squats, it's always my lower back.
As far as the PT test, I'd say I'm above the 80%, the push ups and sit ups I am close to maxing, it's the run that kills me, but I'm still over the 60% I think my time was around 14 minutes the last time I did it. I just looked at the standards, did they lower them? I could have sworn they were harder when I was in, I seem to remember to get a 100 on the run you needed to be under 12 minutes, now it looks like it's 13 minutes. Now you've got me considering doing a test, might do it next weekend.

You must have been reading my mind about the Grenada thing. The drowning thing, that was unfortunately a case of people and an organization not knowing or admitting it's limitations. To the best of my knowledge they never found the bodies of the four either. You could be Mike Phelps and still drown if the conditions are bad enough. As I said before from working with commercial divers that worked on Navy bases, they were very unimpressed with the SEALs in regards to their diving abilities. Basically, they don't do it enough to be "world class" they as you probably accurately put it "spend too much time playing soldier".The other issue was that the SEALs didn't have proper commo gear or proper maps so the contingents that took the governor's mansion and radio station faced Grenadian reinforcements without adequate air support or support at all in the case of the radio station where the team had to abandon their objective, the governor's mansion team lucked out that the Marines came in to back them up. The SEALs had a couple bad runs in the 80's of trying to punch above their weight class, similar thing in Panama, they sent a "team" of around 100 SEALs to take the Panamanian airport where Noriega housed his private jet. The SEALs completed the job, but suffered a lot of casualties, it was too large a group to coordinate for an organization that normally works in groups a quarter that size or smaller. First off the mission should have gone to the Rangers since they practice airfield assaults as part of their bread and butter, the reasoning behind using the SEALs baffles me. Their assault on Noriega's personal yacht was also a strange situation, the guys that assaulted used re-breathers and due to active shipping they ran a real risk of oxygen toxicity since they needed to go lower to avoid the ships. They did it, I believe at least one of the guys had to go through treatment, but why? Why not just have a helicopter run in do a rocket attack instead of risk the lives of high cost assets just so they could say "we attached some explosives to an over priced yacht". I know Marcinko was replaced before Grenada, but all those early mishaps I think rest squarely on his shoulders. The early days of team 6 were rife with in fighting and ego driven decisions that weren't the best for developing a unit like that, the one thing he was good at was getting funding for their training. I've read a couple books by Vietnam era SEALs that didn't have much good to say about him.


Didn't you guys do any water confidence training? That surprises me, I'd think with at least the prospect of river crossings or something like that you'd do at least something. I mean the Marines have a water confidence portion of their basic. Not the hands tied behind the back thing but at least something. I remember we'd have at least a few days a year training at the units, but it wasn't a qualification thing more of an orientation/experience thing. The funniest time, the 1st Sgt (black guy, which you'll understand why I'm qualifying that) basically said "all strong swimmers to the right, all average swimmers to the middle and all you poor and non-swimmers go to the left" so we all divide up and the 1st Sgt looks at us, just shakes his head and says "I should have just said all white guys to the right and all you N to the left" then there were the series of jokes about throwing the basketballs in the water as floatation devices. We had to swim fully clothes and boots holding the weapon out of the water the entire distance, wasn't bad as long as you didn't bump into someone and mess up your rhythm.

The women in infantry units thing I think is overblown, there will never be a large number of women that want to do that, it's at best going to be an anomaly. Although I respect your view, I think it's something people make more out of than it need be. I think it'll be like most things, once they are allowed to do it, it will lose its appeal and fewer will even want to. I can see an advantage to having women trained especially in situations like Afghanistan where the women won't talk unless it's to another woman.

When I say water con, I'm talking actual drown proofing. There has/had (not sure anymore) been a swim test, just like you said to ensure you will not die if you fall into Big Muddy or Drowning Creek.

I agree women have a specialized role to play but I don't think in a combatives role that they're going to be an actual benefit to increase capability. It's just social pressure and an increasing liberal mindset that enables that reasoning. My opinion at least. Overall all though we've have like 3 try out for sf and I believe the current adminstration does not go out of their way to increase their ability to pass... Like the last..
 
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I'll move your post here. This way you have more opportunity to talk to military folks with first hand experience. Like I mentioned before @soILL618 and @sub_thug are still in the U.S. Army and are Special Forces.

Anyone here that's in the Army and been to Fort Bragg, have you ever seen the Delta compound?

I have not. I would imagine it is in the same location at Ft. Bragg where SF does their 'Robin Sage', Phase V, or Camp Mackall where they conduct the SERE Course, Phase II.

Well, for one, the class is way smaller. Instructor to student ratio is much different from BUDs. That translates into a lot more instructors giving you shit and watching your every move compared to BUDs. Army divers spend 10 weeks in Basic Combat Training before taking the Combat Diver Qualification Course for seven weeks. No, no weekends off, unless they have changed things.

I don't know if you have ever gone through 2 months of excruciating military training with no weekends off. It plays with your mind. It is a psychological game. I could put up with just about anything for 5 days of the week knowing I would have the weekend to recover. Sleep and eat. Things don't work like that in elite Army schools. I think the U.S. Navy has a different mentality when it comes to that. I'm not just saying this because I was a soldier in the Army. I have a lot of respect for Navy SEALs but the weekends off during training really makes the whole thing much, much easier.

Basic Combat Training? Isn't that boot camp?

BUD/s starts out pretty big but by the time they get to dive phase the class is less than half the size of what it was on day 1. Plus, they begin Dive Phase immediately after the brutality of Phase 1, so they go into it extremely beat down. Don't the Army Combat Diver guys start fresh? Meaning it's a bunch of Rangers and Green Berets who want that diver designation so they show up fresh from their unit? That makes a big difference as well.

As for weekends in phase 1 and 2, I think whatever they do get off, you're reading way too much into it. The ocean plays a great equalizer and a most other units don't have to deal with the ocean to the same degree as BUD/s students or SEALs. Dive Phase is roughly 2 months in the cold, murky Pacific, but in BUD/s overall, you're in the ocean day in and day out for all 6 months. Wet and sandy almost every single day, all day. The toll that takes is unimaginable. That's excruciating.

I have not gone through the diver course, but I don't believe the 10 weeks mentioned above are basic and AIT. There are very few qualified divers in the U.S. Army. That is a very, very, hard school to complete. I believe only mid level NCOs and officers are admitted to it. I think you would have to be SF qualified first. I don't see the Army paying for non SF qualified guys to go through the school.

Yeah, that cold ocean water training the SEALs go through during the night and day is excruciating. But hey, they have the weekend to look forward to. I'll take that any day over being locked up in Ranger school for 2 months 24/7 with little food or sleep. There is no weekend to help you recover. Once you enter Ranger school, it is all downhill until you graduate. Most graduates have lost between 15 to 20 pounds. Now, if you go through Ranger school in the winter, it is even worst. You'll be doing the same stuff the guys from the 'summer' do, but in sub-freezing temperatures. I went through IOBC at Ft. Benning in the winter and can remember clearing ice and snow from my sleeping bag in the morning. Miserable, but that was a 'gentlemen's' course. Stress free.

No, that's the U.S. Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) patch, but yes, any Delta guys will wear that patch as a unit patch. But you also have way more soldiers who are not Delta wearing that patch. Delta is really the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment.

Yeah, supposedly PSYOPS guys use that patch as well. But any pic of any unit operator I've ever seen has had this patch on their uniform (mainly guys who've either died after retirement or been KIA). So it definitely seems like it's the patch they prefer to wear, even though it's not specifically theirs.

Have you, or anyone that's been in the Army, ever came across a guy wearing this patch on his uniform?

Yes, a couple of times, in different places, and some were not even wearing an SF tab. You can be a female soldier and wear that patch. Maybe the SF folks can correct me here but I think female soldiers assigned to an SF unit can wear the patch and beret but not the SF tab. This due to assigned unit. I don't believe all SF or even Ranger units are free of females in their administrative department, S-1.
@SMillard
 
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...another good documentary. I signed up for the Amazon Prime channel and there are a lot of great movies and documentaries. Never a boring night.

"The Kill Team", 2013, is a documentary about the Maywand District murders during the War in Afghanistan. What shocked me is that it was enlisted soldiers from the 2nd Infantry Division. One bad E-6 as the 'ringleader' of the group. Now, my question is, where were the other Squad leaders, Platoon Sergeant, and Platoon Leader? Whistle blowing by Private Adam Winfield does not seem to help the situation.

 
I'll move your post here. This way you have more opportunity to talk to military folks with first hand experience. Like I mentioned before @soILL618 and @sub_thug are still in the U.S. Army and are Special Forces.



I have not. I would imagine it is in the same location at Ft. Bragg where SF does their 'Robin Sage', Phase V, or Camp Mackall where they conduct the SERE Course, Phase II.





I have not gone through the diver course, but I don't believe the 10 weeks mentioned above are basic and AIT. There are very few qualified divers in the U.S. Army. That is a very, very, hard school to complete. I believe only mid level NCOs and officers are admitted to it. I think you would have to be SF qualified first. I don't see the Army paying for non SF qualified guys to go through the school.

Yeah, that cold ocean water training the SEALs go through during the night and day is excruciating. But hey, they have the weekend to look forward to. I'll take that any day over being locked up in Ranger school for 2 months 24/7 with little food or sleep. There is no weekend to help you recover. Once you enter Ranger school, it is all downhill until you graduate. Most graduates have lost between 15 to 20 pounds. Now, if you go through Ranger school in the winter, it is even worst. You'll be doing the same stuff the guys from the 'summer' do, but in sub-freezing temperatures. I went through IOBC at Ft. Benning in the winter and can remember clearing ice and snow from my sleeping bag in the morning. Miserable, but that was a 'gentlemen's' course. Stress free.





Yes, a couple of times, in different places, and some were not even wearing an SF tab. You can be a female soldier and wear that patch. Maybe the SF folks can correct me here but I think female soldiers assigned to an SF unit can wear the patch and beret but not the SF tab. This due to assigned unit. I don't believe all SF or even Ranger units are free of females in their administrative department, S-1.
@SMillard

USASOC.patch.jpg


This is the patch those guys wear. Their support also wears it as does anyone assigned to USASOC. However if you earned a tan or green beret you will continue with that head gear, otherwise it's the maroon beret. Similar to SF, If you're assigned to group you wear the green beret or maroon beret - for non SF support personnel. The maroon beret because their both airborne units.

Their compound can be found on open source it's an annex to Bragg.
 
This is the patch those guys wear. Their support also wears it as does anyone assigned to USASOC. However if you earned a tan or green beret you will continue with that head gear, otherwise it's the maroon beret.

Yes. I already knew all that. I posted a similar comment a page or two back. @Adamant is the guy you need to be replying to. Female soldiers also wear the patch (SOC) and can also wear the SF patch and green beret without the SF tab, if assigned to an SF unit. Usually the S-1 or S-2 shop. I've seen one or two in my time and it is an odd site. Non-military folks think they are the 'real' deal. Things might have changed with the beret but not the patch. I have a friend who is CA and was assigned to an SF team in Afghanistan for 6 months. He wears the SF patch as a combat patch - right shoulder.

To make things more confusing, the 'airborne' tab on a unit patch does not mean the soldier is airborne qualified. Lots of soldiers in USACAPOC fell under that criteria.



The Delta compound used to be classified. Not really sure why.
 
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Yes. I already knew all that. I posted a similar comment a page or two back. @Adamant is the guy you need to be replying to. Female soldiers also wear the patch (SOC) and can also wear the SF patch and green beret without the SF tab, if assigned to an SF unit. Usually the S-1 or S-2 shop. I've seen one or two in my time and it is an odd site. Non-military folks think they are the 'real' deal. Things might have changed with the beret but not the patch. I have a friend who is CA and was assigned to an SF team in Afghanistan for 6 months. He wears the SF patch as a combat patch - right shoulder.

To make things more confusing, the 'airborne' tab on a unit patch does not mean the soldier is airborne qualified. Lots of soldiers in USACAPOC fell under that criteria.



The Delta compound used to be classified. Not really sure why.

Not trying to be a dick head here man, but support does not wear the GB, that happened briefly in the 70's. If you see someone with a a GB then they've earned it.

Also rangers attended cdqc, and even west point cadet's receive slots, it's not reserved for just SF. There are also weekends off.

Their compound is attached to Bragg.
 
Not trying to be a dick head here man, but support does not wear the GB, that happened briefly in the 70's. If you see someone with a a GB then they've earned it.

Also rangers attended cdqc, and even west point cadet's receive slots, it's not reserved for just SF. There are also weekends off.

Their compound is attached to Bragg.
Was that also for reserve units? When I got out and moved to South Florida there was a SF reserve unit that everyone wore the beret and pretty sure not all of them were tabbed, this was in the mid 90's. I remember when I was at Bragg there were always issues of contention about that for airborne units with legs wearing the maroon beret, can't speak for the green beanies or the black (at that time the Rangers wore black berets).
When I say water con, I'm talking actual drown proofing. There has/had (not sure anymore) been a swim test, just like you said to ensure you will not die if you fall into Big Muddy or Drowning Creek.

I agree women have a specialized role to play but I don't think in a combatives role that they're going to be an actual benefit to increase capability. It's just social pressure and an increasing liberal mindset that enables that reasoning. My opinion at least. Overall all though we've have like 3 try out for sf and I believe the current adminstration does not go out of their way to increase their ability to pass... Like the last..

understood about the "drown proofing". Honestly, I kind of disagree about people not passing if there were, other than injury or medical drops I think a vast majority of the SF guys would push through it, I think most would consider it just another obstacle along the way to the goal. While it was civilian training and not military as well as not going through six weeks of running I've done open water, advanced open water, search and rescue and the dive master courses as well as some commercial diving training and while the drown proofing seemed bad when you first got there it wasn't the boogeyman people made it out to be. One of my instructors was a former Navy diver, he did the whole swim 50 meters underwater without surfacing, knocking your regulator out your mouth, snapping your mask, entangling your regulator in the BC or and the turning your air off (that one actually came in handy once), rescuing a non-compliant victim and all. The only thing we didn't do was the "hands tied behind the back" drown proofing but honestly I consider that's more a parlor trick, your legs are the most important thing, I'd take the treading water for 30 minutes as more a real world application, especially when you have to do a good portion of it with your arms out of the water (yes I did feel stupid waving my arms around for 5 minutes) The only thing I didn't do as part of the commercial diving was the underwater welding ( I was doing it as part of a program for underwater bridge inspections and repair for DOT, but when I found out what they paid I said screw it and went into environmental- at the time DOT underwater bridge techs were making $24,000 a year as opposed to $46,000 as an environmental tech back in the late 90's) Then again, I thought jump school was kind of a let down, after the old Green berets movie with John Wayne I was expecting more.

Since you mention big muddy One funny (to the guy that told me)sad and horrifying story I was told by the Vietnam era SEAL I worked with at Homestead was about one of his guys disboarding the boat on some river and they hadn't completely made it to show the guy thought they were closer than they were and this guy jumped off with full combat gear, apparently it was very muddy right by the river bank and he said the guy jumped, they saw him go down with a big "SLURP" sound and he was gone. This guy just starts laughing telling me the story, all I could think was "what a shitty and embarrassing way to go, and to have some asshole telling my story some 30 years later"

As far as the women, Honestly I don't think which administration is current has that much to do with it. The allure is gone, there was a social environment where there were women that applied due to the whole "what do you mean we can't?" attitude. Now that they can, the number that apply I think will be a trickle and even fewer will succeed. Odds are you might have one woman in your group, yes there will be issues with people screwing each other but there have always been interaction issues and I just consider that one more to the spectrum.
 
When I say water con, I'm talking actual drown proofing. There has/had (not sure anymore) been a swim test, just like you said to ensure you will not die if you fall into Big Muddy or Drowning Creek.
have you, (or anyone else for that matter) ever had to do the aircraft water recovery training? Now that was sucked. Had to do that when I did water and air sampling on an oil rig, just a days worth of work and you have to go through this course where they put you and other people in a mock up of a helicopter then drop you in a pool and flip you over. I'd imagine that's similar to what pilots and flight crews have to go through. Man, you talk about a sucky experience. I thought "no problem, just follow the bubbles like they said" talk about a disorienting experience and when that thing slams into the water it knocked the wind out of me, even though I knew it was coming it still felt like someone punch me in the ass and their fist stopped at my stomach. Then if you aren't the person at the door you have to wait for the others to get out first, it's only a couple guys but still, NOT fun. Basically you have to go through that once a year if you keep doing that work. Fortunately I only ever had to do it once, I don't know how long I'd stay in a job where I had to do that as part of an annual qualification.
 
have you, (or anyone else for that matter) ever had to do the aircraft water recovery training? Now that was sucked. Had to do that when I did water and air sampling on an oil rig, just a days worth of work and you have to go through this course where they put you and other people in a mock up of a helicopter then drop you in a pool and flip you over. I'd imagine that's similar to what pilots and flight crews have to go through. Man, you talk about a sucky experience. I thought "no problem, just follow the bubbles like they said" talk about a disorienting experience and when that thing slams into the water it knocked the wind out of me, even though I knew it was coming it still felt like someone punch me in the ass and their fist stopped at my stomach. Then if you aren't the person at the door you have to wait for the others to get out first, it's only a couple guys but still, NOT fun. Basically you have to go through that once a year if you keep doing that work. Fortunately I only ever had to do it once, I don't know how long I'd stay in a job where I had to do that as part of an annual qualification.

i've done this a few times in our workups before we deployed; helo dunker is never fun. we had to do it with blacked out goggles; first time was escaping. second time using a non-rebreather and escaping. i scuba/dive so i wasnt too worried (since it was a training enviroment too). a lot of people panick though since they can't see chit and they are upside down, and cant control the water from going inside their nose.
 
i've done this a few times in our workups before we deployed; helo dunker is never fun. we had to do it with blacked out goggles; first time was escaping. second time using a non-rebreather and escaping. i scuba/dive so i wasnt too worried (since it was a training enviroment too). a lot of people panick though since they can't see chit and they are upside down, and cant control the water from going inside their nose.
with blacked out goggles? wow, now that would suck. yeah, the water up the nose/hitting the back of your throat is an uncomfortable feeling. That's one of those "I can deal with it, but never get used to it" feelings, especially when I haven't done it in awhile.
Good stuff
 
Not trying to be a dick head here man, but support does not wear the GB, that happened briefly in the 70's. If you see someone with a a GB then they've earned it.

Also rangers attended cdqc, and even west point cadet's receive slots, it's not reserved for just SF. There are also weekends off.

No, you are not being a dick, you just didn't answer my previous question:
Maybe the SF folks can correct me here but I think female soldiers assigned to an SF unit can wear the patch and beret but not the SF tab. This due to assigned unit. I don't believe all SF or even Ranger units are free of females in their administrative department, S-1.

Yes, things have changed in 30 years. IOBC no longer exists. The whole Army now wears stupid black berets. So, again, if a non airborne qualified female soldier is assigned to an SF unit, would she be wearing a black beret?

Non Army folks get all confused, with reason, regarding Army patches, tabs, and unit patches. Berets and combat patches. Trying to clear things up for @Adamant.

Regarding CDQC, I don't know why the Army would give West Point cadets slots to attend the school. Why would anyone want to wear a 'diver' patch who is not in SF? I know about their slots in Airborne and Ranger school, but shit, give a 'green' 2nd Lieutenant some time and experience before he goes through SF or the diver course. Weekends off? So, the school is now following the SEALs in that area?

18 series has no slots for 2nd or 1st Lieutenants. Like Civil Affairs. It is a non-access branch for officers until you make Captain. You have to have completed your Lieutenant time in another MOS. Which, again, raises my point as to why would West Point stick their nose in CDQC.
 
Was that also for reserve units? When I got out and moved to South Florida there was a SF reserve unit that everyone wore the beret and pretty sure not all of them were tabbed, this was in the mid 90's.

There was a time when you could get the SF tab through the reserve program. That didn't work out very well and didn't last for long. But those that did graduate could keep their SF tab. Imagine the attrition it created with the regular SF qualified guys. I think this option ended in the late 80s or early 90s.

Link: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a232083.pdf

@soILL618
 
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There was a time when you could get the SF tab through the reserve program. That didn't work out very well and didn't last for long. But those that did graduate could keep their SF tab. Imagine the attrition it created with the regular SF qualified guys. I think this option ended in the late 80s or early 90s.

Link: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a232083.pdf

@soILL618
Not going to pretend I read the whole thing, but I do get the point that there is difficulty in meeting the standards on a reserve schedule with 2/3 pass rate for active duty and 1/3 pass rate for reserve component candidates, especially when some of it is done via correspondence courses (which personally I always thought were kind of a joke) when I was in we all did correspondence courses for promotion points, example: I completed a course on basic plumbing but the extent of my knowledge was how to use a plunger or jiggle the handle on the toilet because everyone in a unit would take the same courses and share the work/answers to the tests. I would hope that for SF qualification there was some level of proctoring and audit, because without which there'd be even more unqualified people than they know.
 
Not going to pretend I read the whole thing, but I do get the point that there is difficulty in meeting the standards on a reserve schedule with 2/3 pass rate for active duty and 1/3 pass rate for reserve component candidates.

How can a soldier not complete the Q course in the reserves? How can their failure rate be higher than their active counterpart? That was the easiest way to be SF qualified. Again, like the SEALs, the element of lack of sleep, stress, and food deprivation is gone. Now, on the other hand, this would be a great way to have females complete SEAL, Ranger, and Special Forces training. But it will all be done online by correspondence in due time. It will save a lot of money for the U.S. Army. True elite forces will be the British SAS and the French Foreign Legion. ;)
 
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