Story of Jesus Christ was 'fabricated to pacify the poor', claims Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill

[Harmonica]

At any point before the 20th century.

If you are looking for a specific blueprint, I can't help you. Maybe you should consult history and see how other subjugated people who won their freedom had dealt with similar situations.

 

[TheGreatA]

Secularized Christianity accounts for probably more than 50% of Christians in the Western world. It would be foolish to say that it isn't a thing.

It might not be a recognized thing, but it is a thing, nonetheless. 70% of Finns are recognized as Lutherans, yet I have not met one person, outside of the churches, who has professed their faith in a Christian god. Not one. Including the older generations. Many more have acknowledged that they do not believe in anything religious.

People cling onto the moral values and cultural traditions, far more so than the actual belief system.

The kind of "faithful", non-secularized Christians that one might meet in America, are a minority, at the end of the day, amongst Western Christians. Even if they may appear to be a very loud and powerful group in the United States.

 

[luckyshot]

Was this before or after they get fed Christians to lions?

I'm actually going to agree with TCK here (which is how you know JC works miracles).

The OP is ridiculously reductionist. But even if Christianity only produced a slave morality... we *ARE* all slaves. Did you ever think of that?

We are all slaves to suffering, death, and sin (I know it is an old fashioned word-- but who will look at the state of the world and humanity and *dare* to deny that sin exists?).

Maybe it's not so bad to have a morality that reminds *everyone,* from princes to paupers, that they are weak in the scheme of the universe.

And maybe it's not a bad thing to have a Savior who willingly embraces this weakness. Maybe, in order for God to be just, in order for Him to be able to judge over us without being a hypocrite (ie. for there to be justice) He would *have* to suffer as we have.

And *maybe* all those Christian martyrs who went willingly to horrific deaths rather than deny their faith, including the early apostles who claimed to have witness the resurrected Jesus, knew something about what makes life important. (I mean, how many people are literally willing to march to a cross and be crucified for the sake of the "new atheism" or "the Secret" or some other philosophy?)

And *maybe* there is something more than mere "slave morality" that has lead to things like this:

 

[Harmonica]

The Islamic slavemasters castrated the males, prostituted the women, and castrated any male children that the slaves may have had. There's a genocidal aspect to their slave trade that is surprisingly not being talked about, historically, considering its enormous scale (from Europe, to Africa and Asia). The Ottomans would even abduct and enslave children from the northern areas of Europe, through the help of Tatar raiders.

Even if it was talked about, nobody would succeed in instilling bad conscience in Muslims. And that's actually a good thing for them, a sign of vitality. Too bad their religion as a whole is essentially just another decadent Semitic religion.

 

[TheGreatA]

Even if it was talked about, nobody would succeed in instilling bad conscience in Muslims. And that's actually a good thing for them, a sign of vitality. Too bad their religion as a whole is essentially just another decadent Semitic religion.

I would say that over the last 100 years, that has proven to be a bad trait. Because having a good conscience despite being useless outside of rape and pillage, while no longer being able to rape and pillage, has prevented Muslim countries from moving on.

The Vikings were good at raiding, raping and pillaging as well. But they moved on. So did a lot of societies. The Muslims, in a lot of ways, haven't truly been able to adjust to the realities of modernity. The fact that movements such as ISIS can gain such ground, just shows that there are a lot of people who still cling onto the "old ways" of doing things. A worrying number of them.

The old ways haven't truly been effective for about a hundred years. Muslims ought to acknowledge that what they had, was what could be achieved at the time, through the means which were available at the time, but those means are no longer truly available, and pursuing them will only lead to being bombed by fighter jets, and fired at by automatic machine guns while being armed with rocks and machetes. No glory in that, no "jihad", just further embarrassment.

The men who did "jihad" a thousand years ago, were the terrors and conquerors of their day. Not a clown show.

 

[MicroBrew]

You're way too concerned about my race

If you hadn't brought it up, I wouldn't care. You don't see me repeatedly bringing up any other poster's race, because unlike you they didn't feel the need to let everyone know about it. There is and has been plenty of posters here peddling racist sentiments but they didn't feel the need to lie about their background.

 

[spamking]

What he meant is that one can be a Christian psychologically without believing in Christian dogma regarding Genesis, divinity of Jesus etc.

Yeah . . . not really. One might think they can be but they're lying to themselves.

 

[MicroBrew]

What results specifically did MLK get?

Since you always claim to be Black, you should be well aware of them.

 

[TheComebackKid]

If you hadn't brought it up, I wouldn't care. You don't see me repeatedly bringing up any other poster's race, because unlike you they didn't feel the need to let everyone know about it. There is and has been plenty of posters here peddling racist sentiments but they didn't feel the need to lie about their background.

You can't stop talking about my race

 

[MicroBrew]

You can't stop talking about my race

You brought it up, not me.
I only responded because you lie....

 

[Harmonica]

I would say that over the last 100 years, that has proven to be a bad trait. Because having a good conscience despite being useless outside of rape and pillage, while no longer being able to rape and pillage, has prevented Muslim countries from moving on.

The Vikings were good at raiding, raping and pillaging as well. But they moved on. So did a lot of societies. The Muslims, in a lot of ways, haven't truly been able to adjust to the realities of modernity. The fact that movements such as ISIS can gain such ground, just shows that there are a lot of people who still cling onto the "old ways" of doing things. A worrying number of them.

What if "adjusting to modernity" is necessarily followed by unprecedented hedonism and consequently mass extinction? You know, the thing that we are witnessing today in the West. Why would they want to adjust to that when they can persist in their ways and conquer meek Europeans when the time is right i.e. when they have the numbers on us? Normally, this wouldn't be a problem since they can't simply invade our lands as they could in the past, but we have become so poisoned with pity that we are actually inviting them to come to our lands and put the roots down.

 

[Harmonica]

Yeah . . . not really. One might think they can be but they're lying to themselves.

You haven't got the faintest idea of what I was talking about when I said one can psychologically be a Christian without believing in Christian dogmas.

 

[spamking]

You haven't got the faintest idea of what I was talking about when I said one can psychologically be a Christian without believing in Christian dogmas.

I don't care . . . you're either a Christian or you're not . . . that's not saying you can't also abide by various Christian principles, but don't proclaim to psychologically be anything of the sort.

 

[Harmonica]

I don't care . . . you're either a Christian or you're not . . . that's not saying you can't also abide by various Christian principles, but don't proclaim to psychologically be anything of the sort.

Lol. Case in point. You're clueless.

Move along, Christian.

 

[ithinktheymad]

Hades is a Greek translation of Sheol.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The Bible is incoherent and can't even decide how many realms of the dead there are in this belief system.

 

[meauneau]

You haven't got the faintest idea of what I was talking about when I said one can psychologically be a Christian without believing in Christian dogmas.

Being a Christian necessarily entails accepting certain Christian claims as true, namely: the trinity, virgin birth, the resurrection and among others.

 

[ithinktheymad]

I'm actually going to agree with TCK here (which is how you know JC works miracles).

The OP is ridiculously reductionist. But even if, even if, Christianity only produced a slave morality... we *ARE* all slaves. Did you ever think of that?

We are all slaves to suffering, death, and sin (I know it is an old fashioned word-- but who will look at the state of the world and humanity and *dare* to deny that sin exists?).

Maybe it's not so bad to have a morality that reminds *everyone,* from princes to paupers, that they are weak in the scheme of the universe.

And maybe it's not a bad thing to have a Savior who willingly embraces this weakness. Maybe, in order for God to be just, in order for Him to be able to judge over us without being a hypocrite (ie. for there to be hard standards of right and wrong) He would *have* to suffer as we have.

And *maybe* all those Christian martyrs who went willingly to horrific deaths rather than deny their faith, including the early apostles who claimed to have witness the resurrected Jesus, knew something about what makes life important. (I mean, how many people are literally willing to march to a cross and be crucified for the sake of the "new atheism" or "the Secret" or some other philosophy?)

And *maybe* there is something more than mere "slave morality" that has lead to things like this:

I wonder how many kids went hungry so those could be made?

 

[Harmonica]

Being a Christian necessarily entails accepting certain Christian claims as true, namely: the trinity, virgin birth, the resurrection and among others.

No, it doesn't, at least not from the psychological point of view.

Beliefs are born out of needs. If the underlying need out of which beliefs were born is the same in a Christian and a non-Christian, they are one and the same type of people. They differ only in how that need is manifested. A simple example: more intelligent people can't subscribe to otherworldly fairy tales like heaven, so they usually start to believe in some "earthly" fairy tales like utopia, non-exploitative societies and modes of existence, equal rights, world peace and so on and so forth.

 

[meauneau]

No, it doesn't, at least not from the psychological point of view.

Beliefs are born out of needs. If the underlying need out of which beliefs were born is the same in a Christian and a non-Christian, they are one and the same type of people. They differ only in how that need is manifested. A simple example: more intelligent people can't subscribe to otherworldly fairy tales like heaven, so they usually start to believe in some "earthly" fairy tales like utopia, non-exploitative societies and modes of existence, equal rights, world peace and so on and so forth.

It doesn't matter where the beliefs come from. What matters is the propositional content of the belief, the proposition is about something being the case or not being the case. If the propositions are that there is a God who is 3 in 1, that this God made a virgin woman conceive a baby, and that this baby would be crucified, buried and resurrected 3 days later, then this makes one who holds this belief a Christian. These are necessary conditions in order for someone to be a Christian. One cannot hold this belief and yet not be a Christian.

Your mistake is in thinking that 2 people can have the exact same belief, with the exact same propositional content, and yet for one of them to be a Christian and the other not. This is utterly incoherent.

 

[Harmonica]

It doesn't matter where the beliefs come from.

Wrong. That's actually the only thing that matters when we're discussing the psychology of religion.

What matters is the propositional content of the belief, the proposition is about something being the case or not being the case.

No, what matters is the reason or the need behind the belief. Reasons for beliefs are more important than beliefs themselves. Let's say person A believes killing people is wrong and person B believes killing people is wrong. Are they automatically one and the same or one needs to look into the reasons for why they hold such beliefs? What if the only reason person A believes killing to be wrong is the fear of god or some other external authority, whereas person B holds human life sacred in a humanistic, secular sense? Are those two beliefs the same? No, they aren't, despite appearing that way at first glance.

Your mistake is in thinking that 2 people can have the exact same belief, with the exact same propositional content, and yet for one of them to be a Christian and the other not. This is utterly incoherent.

Lol, no. I never said that. You're not listening at all.

You say two people are of the same type if and only if they believe one and the same thing, and I say two people are of the same type if the underlying need or reason for their beliefs is the same while the rest is nothing but makeup and is liable to change. You are being extremely superficial if you think beliefs in themselves are the end.