Can Canelo like head movement work in MMA and Muay Thai/kickboxing?

[ARIZE]

after watching that highlight video I would argue that cannelo has impeccable balance.

When I said that you're off balance, I meant that you are off balance to be able to defend any low or mid kick. As you said, he can reset very easily and smoothly, but imagine he was kicked in the legs during that period... Or how would he defend a mid roundhouse?

Also, LOL @ MT purists who say you can't effectively utilize headmovement in kickboxing, when their favorite move that they're all taught is the pullback (mechanically the worst, most exaggerated, ill-advised, overly-committed and vulnerable headmovement ever)

Edit: not even a pull-back, it's a LEANback which is the same thing but done in a worse way (worse foot placement, worse balance). The same move that got Anderson Silva KO'ed by Weidman

Hmmm... Nobody is teaching to leanback from punches in MT... You lean back at the obvious high kicks and it's a great tool to master. You make fun of "MT purist" but you use MMA to prove them/us wrong. And what Silva did, is exactly what we are against... Excessive head movement with hands down against punches.

Yeah that´s a big problem, some superstars can get out from the norm with some moves but that doesn´t mean everybody should do it.

Exactly. And because some exceptions can do it, that doesn't mean you should teach it to beginners...

 

[spacetime]

Coach Barry from “a million styles boxing” had a great video analyzing “boxing” style head movement in Muay Thai and disproving the myth of that using head movement will mean getting blasted with a high kick or knee.

Can’t seem to find it now though.

Don't believe him. Boxing and Muay Thai are completely different sports, with different skill sets. I think sluggers with the least amount of head movement and boxing "finesse" would transition the best of any boxer. And the finesse "boxers boxers" would do worst. They would probably struggle at even lower levels.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Hmmm... Nobody is teaching to leanback from punches in MT... You lean back at the obvious high kicks and it's a great tool to master. You make fun of "MT purist" but you use MMA to prove them/us wrong. And what Silva did, is exactly what we are against... Excessive head movement with hands down against punches.

The point is that MT guys already teach and use head-movement, despite it being only the crudest and most vulnerable kind-- the showy kind that keeps you from being able to attack and anchors your body to that spot on the floor while you commit to it. It still counts as head-movement, that's literally all it is, it doesn't accomplish anything else, it only gets your head out of the way- albeit, in a very exaggerated and overdone manner.

So since they already use head-movement, then you can't count out head-movement for MT, saying it doesn't work.

The other kinds of head-movement MT hasn't adopted YET are the best, most useful kind in a fight. It's not a slight against MT or kickboxing. They WILL eventually learn and integrate it into their system, give another 50-100 years.

 

[Sano]

The point is that MT guys already teach and use head-movement, despite it being only the crudest and most vulnerable kind-- the showy kind that keeps you from being able to attack and anchors your body to that spot on the floor while you commit to it. It still counts as head-movement, that's literally all it is, it doesn't accomplish anything else, it only gets your head out of the way- albeit, in a very exaggerated and overdone manner.

So since they already use head-movement, then you can't count out head-movement for MT, saying it doesn't work.

The other kinds of head-movement MT hasn't adopted YET are the best, most useful kind in a fight. It's not a slight against MT or kickboxing. They WILL eventually learn and integrate it into their system, give another 50-100 years.

Ahhh, you're being a bit arrogant here. There's a lot of MT fighters from Thailand who does well in boxing and if you look back to the golden age there were fighters who were legit champions in both sports. MT has a very rich history and is something that has been developed to perfection for that ruleset and format. You don't need headmovement the same way in MT as in boxing, or even MMA, because there are so many weapons to use in its place. I say this as someone who has Samart and Somrak as their favourite MT guys. Framing, clinching, pushing, long guards, knees, kicks, elbows so on. You can easily operate at ranges where head movement is less important. They are masters at smothering with the clinch and using knees and elbows, literally holding your head in place.

With that said, plenty of MT fighters are very good at using head movement for their sport. A few at a very high level even for boxing, going back to Samart and Somrak. It can definitely be done, but it's not as important. Depends on style.

 

[spacetime]

Ahhh, you're being a bit arrogant here. There's a lot of MT fighters from Thailand who does well in boxing and if you look back to the golden age there were fighters who were legit champions in both sports. MT has a very rich history and is something that has been developed to perfection for that ruleset and format. You don't need headmovement the same way in MT as in boxing, or even MMA, because there are so many weapons to use in its place. I say this as someone who has Samart and Somrak as their favourite MT guys. Framing, clinching, pushing, long guards, knees, kicks, elbows so on. You can easily operate at ranges where head movement is less important. They are masters at smothering with the clinch and using knees and elbows, literally holding your head in place.

With that said, plenty of MT fighters are very good at using head movement for their sport. A few at a very high level even for boxing, going back to Samart and Somrak. It can definitely be done, but it's not as important. Depends on style.

Those are NakMuays transitioning to Boxing, not the other way around

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yeah it works in both if you're good at it and understand why you do something. The constant nonsense about ducking into knees can happen, but in boxing you have that same risk from an uppercut.

MMA it works a little more because you're rarely against a striker good enough to really exploit it. In Muay Thai it still works so long as you don't swing your body out very far. Artem Levin and Giorgio Petrosyan are both good examples but you don't see it as much from Thais. What you tend to see more from them are very subtle slips (Giorgio uses these too). If you're good at it, you'll probably find success with it, because it's unlikely you're going to be fighting in Lumpinee Stadium, and if you do, you have to be careful with it

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Ahhh, you're being a bit arrogant here. There's a lot of MT fighters from Thailand who does well in boxing and if you look back to the golden age there were fighters who were legit champions in both sports. MT has a very rich history and is something that has been developed to perfection for that ruleset and format. You don't need headmovement the same way in MT as in boxing, or even MMA, because there are so many weapons to use in its place. I say this as someone who has Samart and Somrak as their favourite MT guys. Framing, clinching, pushing, long guards, knees, kicks, elbows so on. You can easily operate at ranges where head movement is less important. They are masters at smothering with the clinch and using knees and elbows, literally holding your head in place.

With that said, plenty of MT fighters are very good at using head movement for their sport. A few at a very high level even for boxing, going back to Samart and Somrak. It can definitely be done, but it's not as important. Depends on style.

I knew someone was going to say this, and yes there are some MT fighters that train boxing also and have accepted its usefulness. I'm absolutely all for that.

I'm talking about non-acceptance by the MT sport and training community as a whole, not just some of them, some standouts who elected to cross-train it on their own are not enough. The prevailing attitude from MT trainers is that boxing training is redundant and the more technical aspects of boxing are not applicable to MT so they shouldn't be trained. I think they're just threatened by the possibility that something useful is out there that they don't already know, which is absurd because that's true for every coach in every discipline.

It reminds me of when BJJ professors say that striking is obsolete and that wrestling isn't necessary. Their BJJ groundgame encompasses all of fighting perfectly. It's pathetic and most people are smart enough to see right through it without an intense dissection of the clear results.

I'm not against MT or anything like that, it's just the stubbornness of larger part of the community to accept that they don't already know all the useful parts of western boxing just because they put gloves on their hands and "allow" punches in their curriculum, and their refusal to integrate basic-intermediate boxing concepts into MT itself beyond their already incorporated sloppy basics. Like I said, it WILL change, but at this rate it will take another 50-100 years

 

[DoctorTaco]

When I said that you're off balance, I meant that you are off balance to be able to defend any low or mid kick. As you said, he can reset very easily and smoothly, but imagine he was kicked in the legs during that period... Or how would he defend a mid roundhouse?




Hmmm... Nobody is teaching to leanback from punches in MT... You lean back at the obvious high kicks and it's a great tool to master. You make fun of "MT purist" but you use MMA to prove them/us wrong. And what Silva did, is exactly what we are against... Excessive head movement with hands down against punches.



Exactly. And because some exceptions can do it, that doesn't mean you should teach it to beginners...

fair point about the leg kicks. I imagine you could block a body kick with your arms/gloves Dutch style. Hespect

 

[Tahm Kench]

When I said that you're off balance, I meant that you are off balance to be able to defend any low or mid kick. As you said, he can reset very easily and smoothly, but imagine he was kicked in the legs during that period... Or how would he defend a mid roundhouse?




Hmmm... Nobody is teaching to leanback from punches in MT... You lean back at the obvious high kicks and it's a great tool to master. You make fun of "MT purist" but you use MMA to prove them/us wrong. And what Silva did, is exactly what we are against... Excessive head movement with hands down against punches.



Exactly. And because some exceptions can do it, that doesn't mean you should teach it to beginners...

You shouldn't be using headmovement in kicking range period. Headmovement should be solely reserved for boxing range.

 

[ARIZE]

You shouldn't be using headmovement in kicking range period. Headmovement should be solely reserved for boxing range.

You know you can be kicked from a punching range, right? Or do you think the 1-2-kick combination is an exotic move?


@DoctorTaco

You will still absorb damage, loose points, compromise your balance...

 

[TheMachinegun12]

I knew someone was going to say this, and yes there are some MT fighters that train boxing also and have accepted its usefulness. I'm absolutely all for that.

I'm talking about non-acceptance by the MT sport and training community as a whole, not just some of them, some standouts who elected to cross-train it on their own are not enough. The prevailing attitude from MT trainers is that boxing training is redundant and the more technical aspects of boxing are not applicable to MT so they shouldn't be trained. I think they're just threatened by the possibility that something useful is out there that they don't already know, which is absurd because that's true for every coach in every discipline.

It reminds me of when BJJ professors say that striking is obsolete and that wrestling isn't necessary. Their BJJ groundgame encompasses all of fighting perfectly. It's pathetic and most people are smart enough to see right through it without an intense dissection of the clear results.

I'm not against MT or anything like that, it's just the stubbornness of larger part of the community to accept that they don't already know all the useful parts of western boxing just because they put gloves on their hands and "allow" punches in their curriculum, and their refusal to integrate basic-intermediate boxing concepts into MT itself beyond their already incorporated sloppy basics. Like I said, it WILL change, but at this rate it will take another 50-100 years

No it does not work for MT because you have to take into consideration more aspects of fighting than only punching. By moving your upperbody in a way a boxer does changes your stance such that you are unable to deliver effective kicks or knees. Also your ability to block kicks diminishes greatly because of the way your stance changes by implementing head movement like boxers.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

No it does not work for MT because you have to take into consideration more aspects of fighting than only punching. By moving your upperbody in a way a boxer does changes your stance such that you are unable to deliver effective kicks or knees. Also your ability to block kicks diminishes greatly because of the way your stance changes by implementing head movement like boxers.

A fair amount of top dutch kickboxers and MT fighters already do it.

It's too subtle for most people to pick up on because it looks natural instead of showboaty, it's built into their regular movement but proper slipping is too small to notice unless you're specifically looking for it. All you may notice is that they don't get hurt when it looks like they should

 

[DoctorTaco]

@DoctorTaco

You will still absorb damage, loose points, compromise your balance...

That’s what that old gypsy woman said before my last fight. Weird.

 

[rmongler]

The most reliable measure for dealing with trying to roundhouse you in the face is not trying to block it, or trying to dodge it, but stuff it with a teep or side kick, which are longer and come out faster.

In mma, the choice in stances that might better fit into an over-all game plan, largely depends on how you use offensive grappling; if your game focuses on avoiding grappling exchanges and/or keeping the fight standing, than striking tactics based around a highly bladed stance are amenable, as this keeps one leg back out of easy reach of bundling a double, which is pretty much a game over in terms of defense, and feeds someone shooting on your legs into a single, which has a much greater 'possibility space' for defending (grabbing a hold of someones leg, whether a common mid-thigh grip, a high crotch grip, or low single/ankle grip, is simply 'step one' of several longer processes that will lead to a take down).

If you are good at fighting in the clinch or on the ground, then a more upright square stance is amenable, as this lends itself to both kicking and checking kicks to the body or legs with a raise knee. A good recent example of this was Covington vs RDA; Colby's lead leg teep and roundhouse/switch kick more or less carried him in the stand up, since a more definitive counter to a teep (catching and sweeping) is something someone generally focused on staying away from grappling exchanges won't try as an option. When RDA actually tried a few shots of his own in round 4 they we're surprisingly successful; due in part to the surprise in the first place, but also because of Colby's more upright stance making it easier to get in on the hips. He (Covington) was able to escape and quickly adjust though, and RDA did not have further success with shots after the first couple tries, and the fearless forward pressure that typified the night continued.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

It also needs to be said that you don't have to be in bladed stance to do head movement, like some kickboxers assume.

Mexican boxers, for example are not bladed for the most part. Yet they still train with the maize bag and slip punches like crazy.

 

[Silver tongue samurai]

It also needs to be said that you don't have to be in bladed stance to do head movement, like some kickboxers assume.

Mexican boxers, for example are not bladed for the most part. Yet they still train with the maize bag and slip punches like crazy.

Tyson is a good example of a non bladed boxer using head movment

 

[biscuitsbrah]

I think the answer is yes. Just not nearly as frequently or liberally.
And if you zig when you should have zagged, the consequences are much more severe

 

[DoggyDogWorld]

I think the answer is yes. Just not nearly as frequently or liberally.
And if you zig when you should have zagged, the consequences are much more severe

Yes but isn't that exactly what Canelo does? He's not out there bobbing and weaving like Tyson, his head movement is sublime, he's there until he's not there. And it happens so fast, even the very best can't keep up with him.

 

[DoggyDogWorld]

 

[DoggyDogWorld]

Also boys, if I wanted to develop top level head movement, would I have to train at a boxing gym? And how much can I train it by myself?