Official Women's Division Discussion #25

I am going to give an unpleasant and possibly unpopular opinion.

Most of the superior female athletes, just like in men's MMA, go to other sports. But this is even more so with respect to women. (speaking only for the USA). Many of the women wind up in BJJ or Judo because they wanted exercise and failed at quite a few other sports. The same as women who transition from cardio-kickboxing to striking. There are fewer women who are "truly skilled" strikers than there are grapplers. The largest talent pool in women's combat sports remains Judo, although BJJ is closing the gap. That being said, BJJ is still hugely populated by women who do not seriously strength train, and will have even more difficultly when facing a superior physical specimen.

This has been my experience as well. I've spent a lot of time in combat sports and even in wrestling where there's a lot more emphasis on strength & conditioning, the women in the program weren't as good athletes as those in other sports. Up here in Canada, the truly good female athletes are mostly in swimming and ice hockey with most of the rest being in track & field and volleyball. Imagine a woman with the fast twitch speed & power of say, Amanda Nunes combined with the endless cardio of Holly Holm. That's pretty much my wife's sister when she was on the national swim team, and there's a lot more women just like her in the program. I've never met a woman with anywhere close to that kind of athleticism in wrestling or any other combat sport.

Put it this way. Imagine what WMMA would be like if fighters like Holly Holm, Cyborg, Andrade, and Valentina were the norm rather than the exception. That's the kind of athletes we have in swimming & ice hockey up here.
 
This has been my experience as well. I've spent a lot of time in combat sports and even in wrestling where there's a lot more emphasis on strength & conditioning, the women in the program weren't as good athletes as those in other sports. Up here in Canada, the truly good female athletes are mostly in swimming and ice hockey with most of the rest being in track & field and volleyball. Imagine a woman with the fast twitch speed & power of say, Amanda Nunes combined with the endless cardio of Holly Holm. That's pretty much my wife's sister when she was on the national swim team, and there's a lot more women just like her in the program. I've never met a woman with anywhere close to that kind of athleticism in wrestling or any other combat sport.

Put it this way. Imagine what WMMA would be like if fighters like Holly Holm, Cyborg, Andrade, and Valentina were the norm rather than the exception. That's the kind of athletes we have in swimming & ice hockey up here.

Women's hockey is not as big down here, which you know, but it is growing. Most of ours with power go into track and field. When I was at UCLA we had some amazing athletes.

While I am giving unpopular opinions, Ronda could have been a good striker with a decent coach and would have given Amanda a decent run for her money.

Oh, and one more opinion:

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Kawaii Mizuki should have moved to San Diego.

Nah, she should move to the UK, learn Catch, become FemSaku.
Obviously I say this out of pure interest in what's best for her, no other motives.
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Hopefully she can score a rare victory for the forces of Light (JWMMA) over the forces of Mordor (B'W'MMA) in her upcoming Invicta bout.
Like Saku. ;)

Tbh who else noticed Ari Emanuel rolling his eyes during Eubanks/Roxy fight. This fight was bad for wmma. At least Roxy was doing some good job while being on her back. Sijara on other hand...
Very low level, especially striking, I would say catastrophic.

I didn't notice that, at what point did that happen?
I'd agree that's not a good sign.

I didn't think the fight was terrible though (note: that's not the same as saying I thought it was good), but it seems most people really hated it. The Heavies PBP was the usual tryhard contest of 'see who can bash the WMMA bout the hardest' but even Redditards hated it and were saying it was in the top 10 worst ever fights, which I thought was way over the top.
 
I didn't think the fight was terrible though (note: that's not the same as saying I thought it was good), but it seems most people really hated it. The Heavies PBP was the usual tryhard contest of 'see who can bash the WMMA bout the hardest' but even Redditards hated it and were saying it was in the top 10 worst ever fights, which I thought was way over the top.
I don't think it was that bad, because ground game was pretty good, but striking was reallly really bad. UFC is doing disservice to wmma by doing fights like this as part of big cards or even promoting it. They really should ignore girls from TUF, look what they got, and do interesting fights in this division. It's not like they have problems like this only with this division, and not only wmma, but fighters like Roxy, Eubanks, Montano should be kept away from spotlights.
 
In her last 3 fights Roxy has banked something like $270k in purses and Reebok money, a handful of women have pocketed seven figure paydays in the few short years females have been in the UFC - champs with ppv points and the luck to be on big cards. Even a journeyman like Cortney Casey has probably earned in excess of $400k.

Where, apart from golf and tennis, are women earning this kind of money from sport? Genuine question because I don't know the position in North America. In the UK Olympic athletes get a wage and one or two might be lucky enough to pick up advertising contracts, no-one is getting rich playing soccer or rugby.

What I'm trying to say is it's early days but surely the news is getting out there that there's money to be made in wmma. Harrison and Suarez come to mma to capitalize on their talents, likewise boxers and kickboxers. From track and field we've seen Reneau and Avila, Casey was a soccer talent. A trickle at the moment but it's surely going to grow.

What would be a shame is if this potential was cut short by mediocre fighters and boring performances. I'm sure that Sherdog isn't the only place where antidiluvian prejudices exist, maybe even in the upper reaches of the UFC. This is why I'm ok with boring fighters being cut, with girls who choose to flash their tits on IG and Eubanks turning heel and being booed to the rafters at the MSG. All that is positive in terms of fan interest.

Oh and here's a small suggestion, the UFC should tell the likes of Roxy and Aldrich that baggy shorts and vests aren't OK ..... look like an athlete not someone emerging from a Victorian bathing machine.
 
@Xuh

You know pure wrestling better than I do. Is there any chance you could go through the 125 class and rate their respective wrestling? I mean, I see people saying Shevchenko has good wrestling when really she does not. Her takedowns are all clinch and MT/Judo based. Her single and double are not much to write home about.
 
Since Michelle Waterson said she hoped the UFC would do an all female PPV I thought I would give it a go at a PPV that would show off the best WMMA has to offer and would be guaranteed to be 1 of the biggest PPVs in UFC history. I don't abide by the usually UFC PPV rules because they are dumb and I include fighters from other organizations and some retired fighters to spice things up and make sure we have a full card of amazing fights.

MainCard: PPV Section

Main: Ronda vs Tate 3(135)
Co-Main: Gina Carano vs Julie Kedzie(140)
3: Cris Cyborg vs Amanda Nunes(145 Title)
2: Thug Rose Vs Andrade(115 Title)
1: Joanna vs Valentina(125 Title)

Undercard: ESPN
Main: PVZ vs Rachael Ostovich(125)
Co-Main: Seo He Ham vs Rena(105)
3: Jessica Penne vs Waterson 2(115)
2: Dern vs Tatiana(115)
1: Andrea Lee vs JoJo(125)

FightPass Card:
Main:Cat Zingano vs Megan Anderson(145)
Co-Main:Amanda Serrano vs Tiffandy Van Soest(120)
3: Charmaine Tweet vs Amanda Bell(145)
2: Miriam Nakamoto vs Lauren Murphy(135)
1: Alyse Anderson vs Amber Brown(105)

Honorable Mentions:
Raquel Pa'aluhi vs Irene Aldana
Alexa Grasso vs Felice Herrig

The honorable mentions did not make the card due to it being full. I wanted to make a brief explanation for all my picks but the post is already too long so I decided against it. I could do it in a later post if anyone actually cares to know why I made these selections. If anyone else wants to try something like this I would be interested in seeing what your picks would be and why you picked them.
 
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Since Michelle Waterson said she hoped the UFC would do an all female PPV I thought I would give it a go at a PPV that would show off the best WMMA has to offer and would be guaranteed to be 1 of the biggest PPVs in UFC history.

Come on, man. Sure, with your hypothetical card of both Ronda, Miesha, AND Gina all coming out of retirement, it would do good numbers.

But any reasonable all-female PPV would be an absolute disaster from a financial perspective. Recall that Nunes-Shevchenko 2 did 100,000 buys, worse than Mighty Mouse PPVs, and Nunes-Pennington did 85,000 buys, worse than any PPV since freaking 2004.

In her last 3 fights Roxy has banked something like $270k in purses and Reebok money, a handful of women have pocketed seven figure paydays in the few short years females have been in the UFC - champs with ppv points and the luck to be on big cards. Even a journeyman like Cortney Casey has probably earned in excess of $400k.

What I'm trying to say is it's early days but surely the news is getting out there that there's money to be made in wmma. Harrison and Suarez come to mma to capitalize on their talents, likewise boxers and kickboxers. From track and field we've seen Reneau and Avila, Casey was a soccer talent. A trickle at the moment but it's surely going to grow.

The money is still peanuts compared to any normal job where women don't have to be punched in the face, cut an unhealthy amount of weight, put off pregnancy, suffer bad injuries, etc.

Very few women, even the most athletic ones, want to be pro athletes, especially "lifers". (Notice that the aforementioned Ronda, Miesha, and Gina all retired between the ages of 27 and 30) That's more of a male desire.

And even fewer of those want to go through the sacrifices and hardships of being a mixed martial artist.

Askafan said:
I'm sure that Sherdog isn't the only place where antidiluvian prejudices exist, maybe even in the upper reaches of the UFC.

Oh and here's a small suggestion, the UFC should tell the likes of Roxy and Aldrich that baggy shorts and vests aren't OK ..... look like an athlete not someone emerging from a Victorian bathing machine.

These two sentences are really funny when put together. On the one hand, we have to combat "antidiluvian prejudices".

On the other hand, we have to tell female fighters, including a pioneer like Modafferi, that they must wear more revealing clothes they're probably uncomfortable with.
 
Since Michelle Waterson said she hoped the UFC would do an all female PPV I thought I would give it a go at a PPV that would show off the best WMMA has to offer and would be guaranteed to be 1 of the biggest PPVs in UFC history. I don't abide by the usually UFC PPV rules because they are dumb and I include fighters from other organizations and some retired fighters to spice things up and make sure we have a full card of amazing fights.

MainCard: PPV Section

Main: Ronda vs Tate 3(135)
Co-Main: Gina Carano vs Julie Kedzie(140)
3: Cris Cyborg vs Amanda Nunes(145 Title)
2: Thug Rose Vs Andrade(115 Title)
1: Joanna vs Valentina(125 Title)

Undercard: ESPN
Main: PVZ vs Rachael Ostovich(125)
Co-Main: Seo He Ham vs Rena(105)
3: Jessica Penne vs Waterson 2(115)
2: Dern vs Tatiana(115)
1: Andrea Lee vs JoJo(125)

FightPass Card:
Main:Cat Zingano vs Megan Anderson(145)
Co-Main:Amanda Serrano vs Tiffandy Van Soest(120)
3: Charmaine Tweet vs Amanda Bell(145)
2: Miriam Nakamoto vs Lauren Murphy(135)
1: Alyse Anderson vs Amber Brown(105)

Honorable Mentions:
Raquel Pa'aluhi vs Irene Aldana
Alexa Grasso vs Felice Herrig

The honorable mentions did not make the card due to it being full. I wanted to make a brief explanation for all my picks but the post is already too long so I decided against it. I could do it in a later post if anyone actually cares to know why I made these selections. If anyone else wants to try something like this I would be interested in seeing what your picks would be and why you picked them.

Why Carano Kedzie again? By today's standards, neither is anything special. Well, Carano is appearance-wise.

I see you do not like Dern all that much, as you have lined her up for a beating.

I like the Nakamoto/Murphy rematch.
 
The money is still peanuts compared to any normal job.

Oh really, what's the minimum wage in the US?

These two sentences are really funny when put together. On the one hand, we have to combat "antidiluvian prejudices".

On the other hand, we have to tell female fighters, including a pioneer like Modafferi, that they must wear more revealing clothes they're probably uncomfortable with.

It's not about revealing clothes it's about looking like a professional athlete, or would you be ok with a guy turning up in a rugby shirt and a woolly hat?

Btw lol at your use of selective arguments, let's just quote a couple of low ppv figures while ignoring two of the top ten ppvs of all time and let's just mention some early retirees and ignore all the thirty somethings.
 
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To add to the clothing front I know Loma Lookboonmee won't weigh in
wearing only her underwear & brassiere so she cuts extra weight to
compensate for clothing weight.
 
Oh really, what's the minimum wage in the US?



It's not about revealing clothes it's about looking like a professional athlete, or would you be ok with a guy turning up in swimming trunks and a woolly hat?

Btw lol at your use of selective arguments, let's just quote a couple of low ppv figures while ignoring two of the top ten ppvs of all time and let's just mention some early retirees and ignore all the thirty somethings.

just wanna say i love the av, sistah

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Why Carano Kedzie again? By today's standards, neither is anything special. Well, Carano is appearance-wise.

I see you do not like Dern all that much, as you have lined her up for a beating.

I like the Nakamoto/Murphy rematch.
Carano vs Kedzie is for nostalgia and PPVs buys. I understand they are no where near the fighters they once were. While that is true their 1st fight was a starting point for a lot of WMMA fans and I want to give those people something they would appreciate. No matter how long it has been since Carano has last fought we know she still will push PPV buys and me acting as a promoter you have to take that into account.

My thought on Dern vs Tatiana is we got the two of the best grapplers at 115. Lets put them in a cage and see what happens.

Miriam vs Lauren is a special one for me. I want Miriam to right the wrong of the fight that was the source of all the troubles in her life. After winning due to an injury Lauren behaved pretty badly in general. It would be nice to see Miriam show Lauren how the fight would have gone if not for the injury.
 
Carano vs Kedzie is for nostalgia and PPVs buys. I understand they are no where near the fighters they once were. While that is true their 1st fight was a starting point for a lot of WMMA fans and I want to give those people something they would appreciate. No matter how long it has been since Carano has last fought we know she still will push PPV buys and me acting as a promoter you have to take that into account.

My thought on Dern vs Tatiana is we got the two of the best grapplers at 115. Lets put them in a cage and see what happens.

Miriam vs Lauren is a special one for me. I want Miriam to right the wrong of the fight that was the source of all the troubles in her life. After winning due to an injury Lauren behaved pretty badly in general. It would be nice to see Miriam show Lauren how the fight would have gone if not for the injury.

Cool. I am a huge fan of Miriam. Cool as fuck then there is that whole Muay Thai thing that I may have some small appreciation for.
 
Since Michelle Waterson said she hoped the UFC would do an all female PPV I thought I would give it a go at a PPV that would show off the best WMMA has to offer and would be guaranteed to be 1 of the biggest PPVs in UFC history. I don't abide by the usually UFC PPV rules because they are dumb and I include fighters from other organizations and some retired fighters to spice things up and make sure we have a full card of amazing fights.

MainCard: PPV Section

Main: Ronda vs Tate 3(135)
Co-Main: Gina Carano vs Julie Kedzie(140)
3: Cris Cyborg vs Amanda Nunes(145 Title)
2: Thug Rose Vs Andrade(115 Title)
1: Joanna vs Valentina(125 Title)

Undercard: ESPN
Main: PVZ vs Rachael Ostovich(125)
Co-Main: Seo He Ham vs Rena(105)
3: Jessica Penne vs Waterson 2(115)
2: Dern vs Tatiana(115)
1: Andrea Lee vs JoJo(125)

FightPass Card:
Main:Cat Zingano vs Megan Anderson(145)
Co-Main:Amanda Serrano vs Tiffandy Van Soest(120)
3: Charmaine Tweet vs Amanda Bell(145)
2: Miriam Nakamoto vs Lauren Murphy(135)
1: Alyse Anderson vs Amber Brown(105)

Honorable Mentions:
Raquel Pa'aluhi vs Irene Aldana
Alexa Grasso vs Felice Herrig

The honorable mentions did not make the card due to it being full. I wanted to make a brief explanation for all my picks but the post is already too long so I decided against it. I could do it in a later post if anyone actually cares to know why I made these selections. If anyone else wants to try something like this I would be interested in seeing what your picks would be and why you picked them.

The good thing about your card is that a few of the bouts are going to happen in the next couple of months, lucky us.

Can't see Gina making 140 but we could always Cyborg the scale. You'll have to explain the Tweet fight and I'd have Zappitella instead of Amber Brown, otherwise ........ I'd watch.
 
@Xuh

You know pure wrestling better than I do. Is there any chance you could go through the 125 class and rate their respective wrestling? I mean, I see people saying Shevchenko has good wrestling when really she does not. Her takedowns are all clinch and MT/Judo based. Her single and double are not much to write home about.
Well, clinch takedowns and 'judo trips' are all wrestling too ;) it's mostly the american style that is focussed on being athletic and shooting double legs ;)

Looking at the top 15 125 the only one I can remember thinking showed nice technique doing a 'traditional wrestling move' is Andrea Lee, believe it or not.
After that I'd say Val and Roxy (ya rilly) have the 'nicest' technique though more trippy based than shooting based.
The only one with a base in wrestling (or even having any substantial background any other kind of takedown art - judo, sambo) is Ashley Evans-Smith, and she has no shot that I can recall and frankly kinda sucks IMHO.
Carmouche is probably best overall solely by virtue of physicality.


Anyway my quick rundown of the 125lbs UFC rankings top 15 based off the top of my head, scores subject to improvement with other's ppls imput: (these scores are based more on compared to each other / other WMMA divs, than anything else).
If your'e just talking about 'shooting double and single legs', I'd give Carmouche 5 or 6 outta 10 and the rest 4/10 or less.

The better ones on the list are generally better at clinching and wall and stalling then actually taking it to the mat, since they lack tackedowns and their opponents aren't much better.

Valentina Shevchenko
6.25/10
She is in great condition and has some OK judo techniques and muay thai trip stuff but obviously is a kickboxer first and foremost. Tended to end up on the bottom rather than the top when grappling breaks out in her fights (vs Nunes (I), Pena, and Carmouche from the descriptions of that bout). Though was generally on top vs Kaufman (not that Kaufman is a great wrestler, but...)

Nicco Montano
?/10
To be honest I don't know how to rate her (I mean, she never fights so what's there to go on ;) ). Obviously she is not very technical but she is very persistent...

Katlyn Chookagian
3/10
BJJ/Boxer, which is the devil's combination when it comes to takedowns.

Sijara Eubanks
5.5/10
Another BJJer but has physical strength on her side which helps a lot. I don't remember seeing her do much noteworthy takedown technique wise though. Mostly clinch based.

Alexis Davis
4/10
Another BJJer with little to write home about in terms of takedowns. Also, unathletic.
More inclined to clinch/shoot than Chook, though.

Liz Carmouche
7/10
Physically strong and reasonably explosive, but not technical. I give her 7/10 just to rate her above the rest, in a man's division she'd probably be 5 or 6/10.

Roxy
5.25/10
Actually has some nice trips and stuff (her throw against Eubanks the other day was great), and she's turned into a decent 'pressure against the cage' type as well, but she's just too unathletic and has no shot whatsoever (probably bad knees) to pull much off against fitter, stronger womyn.

Lauren Murphy
6.75/10
Technically bad but gets away with a lot through brute strength and stamina. She doesn't really have much in the way oftakedowns though, just 'cage hugging' style grappling. I have to rate her close to or even with Carmouche based on their fight though.

Jessica Eye
4/10
I don't remember her doing much, takedown wise (or takedown defence wise).

Jessica-Rose Clark
5.5/10
She seems quite strong and decent at hugging I guess but has no remarkable techniques that I can recall. For instance, she couldn't take down Kaufman (unlike Val) and was outgrappled by Kianzad who is not a grappler (though Jessy seems to have improved since then).

Ashlee Evens-Smith
6/10
She's actually an 'all american' in wrestling but I imagine the pool in collegate women 135 when she graduated was tiny.
Despite her background I don't remember anything noteworthy from her in MMA, and she has no shot. Compared to her classmate & co-graduate Esparza, she sucks. I give her 6/10 because she probably has a slight edge on the Jessica Rose Clarks of the world due to her background.

Joanne Calderwood
3/10

Mara Romero Borella
? seems quite physically strong but I don't know what to say really, other than 'she isn't a wrestler'

Jennifer Maia
4.5/10
Muai Thai/BJJ base, she has developed a decent 'wall and stall' game though, but not much in the way of takedowns.

Andrea Lee
6/10
Actually does some nice things every now and then, but usually fucks up shortly after (eg the ankle pick vs d'Alelio). But she's also a kickboxer first and foremost...
 
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Come on, man. Sure, with your hypothetical card of both Ronda, Miesha, AND Gina all coming out of retirement, it would do good numbers.

But any reasonable all-female PPV would be an absolute disaster from a financial perspective. Recall that Nunes-Shevchenko 2 did 100,000 buys, worse than Mighty Mouse PPVs, and Nunes-Pennington did 85,000 buys, worse than any PPV since freaking 2004.

Well we know that is not true at all because Cyborg vs Holm has already done 340,000 to 380,000 PPV buys. I already explained the reason why I included both retired fighters and fighters from other organizations. I could make an all active UFC female PPV that would do a good amount of buys but I thought this was more fun.
 
The good thing about your card is that a few of the bouts are going to happen in the next couple of months, lucky us.

Can't see Gina making 140 but we could always Cyborg the scale. You'll have to explain the Tweet fight and I'd have Zappitella instead of Amber Brown, otherwise ........ I'd watch.
I have a special love of both Charmaine Tweet and Amanda Bell. They are both mediocre at best but they are ALWAYS in exciting fights. They are those type of kill or be killed fighters. While the UFC does not appreciate that I certainly do. I picked Amber brown for that 105 fight because she seems to get into a lot of really fun scrambles. Her and Alyse seem like they would have chemistry for a Waterson/Penne type fight.
 
Well, clinch takedowns and 'judo trips' are all wrestling too ;) it's mostly the american style that is focussed on being athletic and shooting double legs ;)

Looking at the top 15 125 the only one I can remember thinking showed nice technique doing a 'traditional wrestling move' is Andrea Lee, believe it or not.
After that I'd say Val and Roxy (ya rilly) have the 'nicest' technique though more trippy based than shooting based.
The only one with a base in wrestling (or even having any substantial background any other kind of takedown art - judo, sambo) is Ashley Evans-Smith, and she has no shot that I can recall and frankly kinda sucks IMHO.
Carmouche is probably best overall solely by virtue of physicality.


Anyway my quick rundown of the 125lbs UFC rankings top 15 based off the top of my head, scores subject to improvement with other's ppls imput: (these scores are based more on compared to each other / other WMMA divs, than anything else).
If your'e just talking about 'shooting double and single legs', I'd give Carmouche 5 or 6 outta 10 and the rest 4/10 or less.

The better ones on the list are generally better at clinching and wall and stalling then actually taking it to the mat, since they lack tackedowns and their opponents aren't much better.

Valentina Shevchenko
6.25/10
She is in great condition and has some OK judo techniques and muay thai trip stuff but obviously is a kickboxer first and foremost. Tended to end up on the bottom rather than the top when grappling breaks out in her fights (vs Nunes (I), Pena, and Carmouche from the descriptions of that bout). Though was generally on top vs Kaufman (not that Kaufman is a great wrestler, but...)

Nicco Montano
?/10
To be honest I don't know how to rate her (I mean, she never fights so what's there to go on ;) ). Obviously she is not very technical but she is very persistent...

Katlyn Chookagian
3/10
BJJ/Boxer, which is the devil's combination when it comes to takedowns.

Sijara Eubanks
5.5/10
Another BJJer but has physical strength on her side which helps a lot. I don't remember seeing her do much noteworthy takedown technique wise though. Mostly clinch based.

Alexis Davis
4/10
Another BJJer with little to write home about in terms of takedowns. Also, unathletic.
More inclined to clinch/shoot than Chook, though.

Liz Carmouche
7/10
Physically strong and reasonably explosive, but not technical. I give her 7/10 just to rate her above the rest, in a man's division she'd probably be 5 or 6/10.

Roxy
5.25/10
Actually has some nice trips and stuff (her throw against Eubanks the other day was great), and she's turned into a decent 'pressure against the cage' type as well, but she's just too unathletic and has no shot whatsoever (probably bad knees) to pull much off against fitter, stronger womyn.

Lauren Murphy
6.75/10
Technically bad but gets away with a lot through brute strength and stamina. She doesn't really have much in the way oftakedowns though, just 'cage hugging' style grappling. I have to rate her close to or even with Carmouche based on their fight though.

Jessica Eye
4/10
I don't remember her doing much, takedown wise (or takedown defence wise).

Jessica-Rose Clark
5.5/10
She seems quite strong and decent at hugging I guess but has no remarkable techniques that I can recall. For instance, she couldn't take down Kaufman (unlike Val) and was outgrappled by Kianzad who is not a grappler (though Jessy seems to have improved since then).

Ashlee Evens-Smith
6/10
She's actually an 'all american' in wrestling but I imagine the pool in collegate women 135 when she graduated was tiny.
Despite her background I don't remember anything noteworthy from her in MMA, and she has no shot. Compared to her classmate & co-graduate Esparza, she sucks. I give her 6/10 because she probably has a slight edge on the Jessica Rose Clarks of the world due to her background.

Joanne Calderwood
3/10

Mara Romero Borella
? seems quite physically strong but I don't know what to say really, other than 'she isn't a wrestler'

Jennifer Maia
4.5/10
Muai Thai/BJJ base, she has developed a decent 'wall and stall' game though, but not much in the way of takedowns.

Andrea Lee
6/10
Actually does some nice things every now and then, but usually fucks up shortly after (eg the ankle pick vs d'Alelio). But she's also a kickboxer first and foremost...

What about Joanna - I seem to remember an uchi mata in the second Gadelha fight, also Ostovich has done some interesting takedowns ..... I'm just bluffing here by the way, grappling is a mystery to me.
 
Well, clinch takedowns and 'judo trips' are all wrestling too ;) it's mostly the american style that is focussed on being athletic and shooting double legs ;)

Yeah, I guess I was not as clear as I should have been. I just do not see much in the way of good singles or doubles with the exception of Liz, so I was wondering. Thank you for your post.
 
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