SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 131 - Withnail and I

Now that I think about it, how interesting that Withnail's uncle is a "failed thespian" who is also always breaking out in a monologue and who has drank so much his nose and cheeks have turned red which is the sign of a true alcoholic. Withnail's uncle is called Monty which is short for Montague. As in the Montagues and the Capulets from Romeo and Juliet which is Shakespeare.

I wonder if the film is a statement on the death of a certain kind of actor. Like Withnail is a relic from a different era. In a different time (Say when notorious drunks like Richard Burton, Peter O'Toole and Oliver Reed were around) he would've been better appreciated and people would've tolerated his shit knowing he could deliver. I suppose that's more of an actors question. I don't really know what the feels of the acting world were back in the late 80's when Withnail & I was made. It's not like British stage actors have ever stopped getting work. And it's not like drunken asshole behaviour ever went away in acting either. I guess it just got replaced with drugs and everyone became obsessed with good PR. I guess the shit that's gone on in Hollywood the last couple of decades makes guys like Withnail, Reed, Burton and O'Toole look like fairies
 
@europe1 you were talking about "succulent carrots" and it made me think about other things in the movie. Uncle Monty when we first meet him chases his cat (pussy) around the room and laments that the cat has ruined everything once again. Also, the drug dealer rolls a huge joint shaped like a carrot.

danny_withnail.jpg
 
Thanks to my sherbros for sending me via smoke signals some TOTALLY LEGAL ways to watch this movie.

Now I wait for everyone in my house to fack off and go to sleep so I can have 2 hours to myself and watch...
 
I wonder if the film is a statement on the death of a certain kind of actor. Like Withnail is a relic from a different era. In a different time (Say when notorious drunks like Richard Burton, Peter O'Toole and Oliver Reed were around) he would've been better appreciated and people would've tolerated his shit knowing he could deliver. I suppose that's more of an actors question. I don't really know what the feels of the acting world were back in the late 80's when Withnail & I was made. It's not like British stage actors have ever stopped getting work. And it's not like drunken asshole behaviour ever went away in acting either. I guess it just got replaced with drugs and everyone became obsessed with good PR. I guess the shit that's gone on in Hollywood the last couple of decades makes guys like Withnail, Reed, Burton and O'Toole look like fairies

<TheWire1>

I didn't even think of that connection between sort of the oldschool heavy drinker actor and the changing of the times. I'll have to think about that one some. All this talk of drinking and drunks reminds me of the movie Arthur (1981)

 


I watched that entire video. Some of those stories are hysterical like the bar owner cutting them off so they said no we are going to drink a lot more and bought the bar. <45>
 
I love the film but I always hated McGann. I thought maybe I just hated the character (And I kinda do), but I hated McGann in other films too so I think he just has a look that grinds my gears. Thing is, for his importance in the film I wouldn't say he really holds it back.

I always found the ending so sad. McGann, a complete nobody, moving forward with his life and then Withnail belts out that monologue and shows he's on a different level of talent and potential but there's no one there to see it, and no one will ever see it. He'll always just be a drunk.

<mma1>

About a year ago I had a conservation with a woman photographer who was part of the extended group of friends Robinson had in Camden that the film was based on(Obviously "I"/Marwood is Robinson himself) who knew Vivian MacKerrell(who Withnail was based on although he did work a bit more) quite well and was putting on an exhibit of pictures from that time. Interesting that she wasn't present in the film, indeed I think its quite deliberate that bar the odd small role the film is almost 100% male with a good deal of homoeroticsm beyond Monty, you could argue its the brit version of Predator from the same year. ;)

You get Danny's comments about the end of the swinging 60's but to me the film really feels like its more about the end of Empire and indeed how much the rest of society wasn't really involved in the image of the 60's. Withnaii and his family gives the impression of toffs fallen on hard times that Monty's waxing lyrical plays up and most of the locations like their house, montys country home and to some degree even his house has the air of 19th century decay to it, indeed we even see Victorian era houses having the wrecking ball put to them in favour of modern high-rise flats. Whilst the Monty plot is obviously played in a rather unflattering way to him in a lot of respects(was based partly on Robinson being chased by an Italian director I believe that's referred as well with Withnail commenting about the young actor cast by sleeping with the director) you could argue really he's more of a tragic character in the end. Highlighting perhaps that whilst technically homosexually was legalised in 67 there was still obviously a strong climate of homophobia not really in touch with the supposedly freedom loving times to the degree he needs a country hideaway/love nest.

I would mention as well is it just me or has Johnny Depp based a good part of his career ripping of Richard E Grants performance as Withnail? I mean he even got cast by Robinson in the same kind of role for The Rum Dairies.
 
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I know this Withnail type. Brilliant people on their own right, but too proud and impractical to make use of their talent and possibly also living on wrong era. Coming from wealth can really be a burden too. On the other hand, I saw Francis Bacon biopic Love Is the Devil few weeks ago. Makes me think that if Withnail ever got really successful, I can imagine him becoming even more abusive drunkard.

Dylan Moran’s character in Black Books seems to be somewhat influenced by Withnail.

Vivian MacKerrell(who Withnail was based on although he did work a bit more)
Ghost Story seems interesting from his filmography. I'm very curious to see irl Withnail in action.
 
I know this Withnail type. Brilliant people on their own right, but too proud and impractical to make use of their talent and possibly also living on wrong era. Coming from wealth can really be a burden too. On the other hand, I saw Francis Bacon biopic Love Is the Devil few weeks ago. Makes me think that if Withnail ever got really successful, I can imagine him becoming even more abusive drunkard.

Dylan Moran’s character in Black Books seems to be somewhat influenced by Withnail.


Ghost Story seems interesting from his filmography. I'm very curious to see irl Withnail in action.

In the 1960s, British painter Francis Bacon (1909-1992) surprises a burglar and invites him to share his bed. The burglar, a working class man named George Dyer, 30 years Bacon's junior, accepts. Bacon finds Dyer's amorality and innocence attractive, introducing him to his Soho pals. In their sex life, Dyer dominates, Bacon is the masochist. Dyer's bouts with depression, his drinking and pill popping, and his satanic nightmares strain the relationship, as does his pain with Bacon's casual infidelities. Bacon paints, talks with wit, and, as Dyer spins out of control, begins to find him tiresome. Could Bacon care less?

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In the 1960s, British painter Francis Bacon (1909-1992) surprises a burglar and invites him to share his bed. The burglar, a working class man named George Dyer, 30 years Bacon's junior, accepts. Bacon finds Dyer's amorality and innocence attractive, introducing him to his Soho pals. In their sex life, Dyer dominates, Bacon is the masochist. Dyer's bouts with depression, his drinking and pill popping, and his satanic nightmares strain the relationship, as does his pain with Bacon's casual infidelities. Bacon paints, talks with wit, and, as Dyer spins out of control, begins to find him tiresome. Could Bacon care less?

th
One of the most grueling movies I've seen recent years. Takes also place in 60's and there's a lot of boozing with a bunch of British bohemians, but the wittiness mentioned in that summary is not quite like in "W. and I".

Btw, did you notice to plays Dyer?
tumblr_mafh3rqEk01roixiho1_250.gif
 
One of the most grueling movies I've seen recent years. Takes also place in 60's and there's a lot of boozing with a bunch of British bohemians, but the wittiness mentioned in that summary is not quite like in "W. and I".

Btw, did you notice to plays Dyer?
tumblr_mafh3rqEk01roixiho1_250.gif

Yea, Daniel Craig. This was 1998 so maybe he was hurting for work or just liked the script. I haven't seen the movie so I have no idea, but I did notice that.
 
Yea, Daniel Craig. This was 1998 so maybe he was hurting for work or just liked the script. I haven't seen the movie so I have no idea, but I did notice that.
It’s absolutely a quality movie.
 
One of the most grueling movies I've seen recent years. Takes also place in 60's and there's a lot of boozing with a bunch of British bohemians, but the wittiness mentioned in that summary is not quite like in "W. and I".

Btw, did you notice to plays Dyer?
tumblr_mafh3rqEk01roixiho1_250.gif

Bond is the Warmest Colour.
 
Well, stayed past my bedtime last night to finish Withnail and I. Short notes

- Far better than I remembered as a kid and having gone through drunken adventures in college, I could relate to alot of it.
- Definitely British humor, very dry but witty and some epic one liners.
- I have had friends like Withnail, drunkards who are pissed at the world and hilarious at that.
- London looks like a spaceship took a dump on it, although Withnail and I aren't exactly wealthy to be kind.
- It was clear as day Uncle Monty was swinging in a different direction but I wasn't too sure Withnail and I aren't either.
- Overall, I found it to be fairly funny but not sure I would rewatch it by myself.
- As I stated, some epic one liners that have burned into my memory. Well worth at least a single watch and the dialogue definitely drives the movie. Wish I could give you more but it wasn't a movie that made me ponder life...just few trips back to college life
 
* The first preview screening appeared to be a total disaster - the audience sat there stony-faced, never laughing once. It was only after the screening had concluded that a distraught Bruce Robinson discovered that the audience was comprised entirely of non-English speaking German tourists who were all staying at a hotel nearby.

LOL! You have to know your audience to be successful as a film maker!
 
Not going to do an "as I watch" diary, but I'm seven minutes in and I already love this movie.

At the risk of having Rimbaud throw that drink in my face, if I were to use one word to describe my thoughts on Withnail and I, it would be:

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Like I said to @moreorless87 in the SMD, for the longest time Withnail and I was just a title. I had no idea what it was. When I started it last night, I still had no idea WTF I was about to watch. For the first 20 minutes or so, it was glorious. It was like a riotous UK comedy version of Midnight Cowboy. I loved literally every second, every line, every gesture. But then it turned into a Eurotrip-style "fish out of water" road trip movie and I was so bummed. All the Uncle Monty/holiday shit sucked; I actually found myself seriously bored at multiple points during the middle. Then, when they made it back to their apartment and the film wrapped up, I was back to loving it. So, in essence, I loved the introduction and the conclusion but disliked everything in between.

No joke, though: The opening 25 minutes of that movie is arguably the funniest opening 25 minutes of any movie ever. Them in that apartment, doing the dishes, bitching in the park, going out to the pub, it was a riot. There are so many quotable lines, many of which you guys have already quoted, but my personal favorite was when I was trying to stop Withnail from going into the kitchen and he tells him that something might be living in there. Withnail's line upon being told that it might be a rat - "then the fucker will rue the day!" - had me rolling. And it's a credit to Richard E. Grant's performance that Ralph Brown wasn't able to steal the show the way that he did in Wayne's World 2, even though he was, of course, hysterical as Danny. My favorite line from him was his drugged out John McClane question: "Have either of you got shoes?"

So yeah, very high highs but they weren't sustained. Still, I'm glad that I got to see this one. And I'm sure that I'll watch the beginning of that movie many more times even if I don't bother ever rewatching the whole movie again, though I'm sure I'll eventually give the full thing another try down the road.

Not gonna lie. Had to watch it with subtitles.
I think if you need subtitles you may lose something here, I just struggle to see why anyone would unless English is a second language?
What can I say, between slang and different pronunciations I was missing about 1/4 of the dialogue. Some characters were more easily understood than others.

Fortunately, the time I spent in the UK helped immensely here. I streamed it without a subtitle option anyway but I was glad that I didn't feel that I needed it. But I totally get needing it. Cubo may not be in the same spot as those German tourists, but certain English accents are tougher to decipher than others even for English speakers, and that's to say nothing of the discrepancies in slang.

I mean, take this, for example. It's from a segment called "Master of Accents" from Tom Segura and Christina Pazsitzky's podcast:



Chris-Rock-HUH-WTF.gif


I think the dialogue is what does it really, the quaint theatrical expressions are what makes this film, firm young carrots, toilet traders, i intend to have you even if its burglary...
The dialogue is consistently well timed, dry and very funny throughout. Presents a catalogue of well delivered great one liners.
Definitely British humor, very dry but witty and some epic one liners [...] As I stated, some epic one liners that have burned into my memory. Well worth at least a single watch and the dialogue definitely drives the movie

QFT.

I enjoyed every minute of this film right up until the end, which sucks balls. It has a sobering feeling of reality kicking in which I hate each time I re-watch Withnail.
The last 30 minutes is not that entertaining

I had the opposite reaction. I got jazzed up again once the last 30 minutes came around. Nailgun, do you not like the ending because you were having so much fun before it? Because it's too depressing and you don't like the tonal shift? And Yotsuya, why don't you find it entertaining? Because compared to the preceding it isn't as funny?

Drinking game for Withnail & I: Match the characters drink for drink, when the characters drink, you drink.

This involves nine and a half glasses of red wine, half a pint of cider, one shot of lighter fluid, two and a half shots of gin, six glasses of sherry, thirteen glasses of whisky and half a pint of ale.
I have been meaning to do this, the common thing is to use vinegar for the lighter fluid.

Only wankers who can't afford lighter fluid would drink vinegar ;)

I always found the ending so sad. McGann, a complete nobody, moving forward with his life and then Withnail belts out that monologue and shows he's on a different level of talent and potential but there's no one there to see it, and no one will ever see it. He'll always just be a drunk.

<mma1>

Ignoring the heretics @jei and @LHWBelt, who've failed to worship at its alter, that aspect of the film brought Raging Bull to my mind. I've always found one of the most painful moments in all of cinema to be that moment early in Raging Bull when De Niro complains to Pesci about his hands and about how he "ain't never gonna get a chance to fight the best there is." He's certain that he's better than them, but he'll never even get the chance to prove it. It's fucking devastating to think about characters like that, characters who, according to their own metric of success, will always be failures in their own minds.

Whitnail and I is really sort of bleak

I mentioned earlier that I got a Midnight Cowboy vibe. Well, from the instant it started and that music was going with I just sitting there on the screen, I was actually expecting a somber, cynical comedy. Tonally, it actually wasn't like that, but it certainly starts in that direction and then it for sure ends on a somber note.

Generally when I watch films for the club I pay close attention to the props of the film, the artwork, posters, grafitti, books or magazines, obscure references, anything that will give me insight into what is really being said and directors almost always put these things in, even if subtle at times. About halfway through the film, "I" is reading a book that flashes on screen, clearly readable as Journey's End by R.C. Sheriff. Journey's end was published in 1929.

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Journey's End was also a 3 act play of the same name in 1929 starring Colin Clive and directed by James Whale, you may notice the bottle of booze sitting on the table next to Clive.

220px-Colinclive.jpg


Some variants of the book also have bottles of liquor on the table by a skull.

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The book is about several men's experiences in an officers dugout during WWI and takes place over a period of 4 days. Whitnail and I also seems to be about their journey, including an incredible amount of alcohol, and takes place over what appears to be 3 or 4 days. R.C. Sheriff considered called the book "Waiting" or "Suspense" but ended up calling it Journey's End which was from a line in an unidentified book.

It didn't occur to me that the end of the film was going to turn the way it did but after researching it some I think its far more brilliant than just a comedy about a couple of alcoholics misadventures. This is from a synopsis of Act 3 of Journey's End.

The German attack on the British trenches approaches, and the Sergeant Major tells Stanhope they should expect heavy losses. When it arrives, Hibbert is reluctant to get out of bed and into the trenches.

A message is relayed to Stanhope telling him that Raleigh has been injured by a shell and that his spine is damaged meaning that he can't move his legs. Stanhope orders that Raleigh be brought into his dugout. He comforts Raleigh while he lies in bed. Raleigh says that he is cold and that it is becoming dark; Stanhope moves the candle to his bed and goes deeper into the dugout to fetch a blanket, but, by the time he returns, Raleigh has died. The shells continue to explode in the background. Stanhope receives a message that he is needed. He gets up to leave and, after he has exited, a mortar hits the dugout causing it to collapse and entomb Raleigh's corpse.

Whitnail = Raleigh
"I" = Stanhope

Notice how Raleigh complains of being cold, just as Whitnail did. Stanhope ("I") stays with him as long as he can but Raleigh dies and Stanhope ends up leaving the dugout as it is destroyed by a bomb, entombing Raeigh. The end of Whitnail and I is a deadly death-strike to Whitnail, if not just the death of their friendship, the actual death of Whitnail that awaits him. He is an alcoholic, being evicted from his apartment, has no future, no money, and now his best friend "I" has moved on with his life, cutting his hair and moving on to something else.

"I" even tells Whitnail, I'm going to miss you. He and Whitnail know that this is the Journey's End. I enjoyed the comedy aspect of this film but in no way was prepared for the final 5 or 10 minutes.
For fuck sake MusterX you certainly go deep down these rabbit holes in search of some hidden meanings o_O:D

I think you have gone a bit too deep here, he's probably reading that book because the director saw some affinities between the characters, maybe it was a favourite book of his, there are many reasons it may be there rather than reducing the plot of Withnail and I to an actual retelling/recasting of that story.

I'm actually going to take Muster's side on this one. That inspiration/influence is entirely plausible to me.

I was really taken by surprise the sadness of this ending especially considering it was a comedy. I've seen this happen to friends in real life, where one moves on and the other is left behind, there is a sense of realness to the end of Whitnail and I and the film would be less if not for the sad ending.

That friendship aspect made me think of Good Will Hunting (with one friend leaving the other behind) and Sleepers (the sadness of knowing that a friend is on a certain path and they're going to take that same path right to their grave).

As @Zer pointed out, Whitnail was talented, more talented than his friend, but for whatever reason his fate was much darker than his friends and he was left to it. I honestly thought the film was just o.k. until the end. The ending makes the film something else entirely, it elevates a nonsensical comedy to a study on life and friendship.
I don't necessarily agree that Withnail (ps. this [edit: was] miss-spelled in the title of the thread lol) was the more talented, of course he seemed to have some talent at delivering Shakespeare, but he is also more inflated, self-important and prone to outbursts, which is why we see him trying to deliver Shakespeare in circumstances like that. 'I' on the other hand, is more 'normal', certainly more quiet and restrained in general. We don't actually see him suddenly burst in acting. For all we know (and we might assume, since he got the job) 'I' is the better actor.

On this point, I'm with Rimbaud. Not only do we never actually see I's talent, so there's no way to judge their respective talents, but the whole "for whatever reason his fate was much darker" thing is the type of bullshit cop-out that allows people like that to blame the universe for their misfortunes rather than taking any responsibility. I mentioned the Raging Bull comparison, but, strictly speaking, De Niro's despair and Grant's despair are not identical. To get nerdy here, in his book The Sickness Unto Death, Søren Kierkegaard outlined three "levels" of despair: Despair at not being conscious of having a self, despair at not willing to be oneself, and despair at willing to be oneself. As I see it, Grant's despair is first-level despair, which Kierkegaard himself regarded as "inauthentic" despair. There's a great book by a film scholar named Daniel Shaw called Movies with Meaning: Existentialism through Film in which he clearly breaks down first-level despair:

"[First-level despair] occurs in the person who lives an immediate and unreflective life. In responding to fortunes and misfortunes of the moment, 'immediacy actually has no self, it does not know itself; thus it cannot recognize itself and generally ends in fantasy.' A person with little or no self-awareness despairs in the face of earthly troubles and can see no possible way out of them."

That seems like Grant to me. De Niro's despair, by contrast, is an authentic and profound despair. As Shaw explains what I think captures De Niro's despair in Raging Bull (especially in Kierkegaard's emphasis on religion, which is always relevant when it comes to Scorsese films):

"An even deeper type of despair results from dissatisfaction with one's self ... [and] deeper still is the defiant despair of the rebel who rejects God and His creation in response to profound suffering, injustice, or loss ... Such a person is obsessed with venting his rage, digging himself deeper into the hole of despair in the process."

The fact that he chooses to leave is of course sad, there is a genuine friendship there despite it all
I'm still thinking about that ending. Withnail kinda brought it on himself always trying to throw "I" under the bus. He does it repeatedly throughout the film, like for example when he tells his uncle the "I" is gay. Here is another example.

  • [Marwood comes out of the toilets and passes the large Irishman again]

    Irishman : Perfumed ponce!

    [wearing a fixed smile, Marwood joins Withnail at the bar]

    Withnail : You'll be pleased to hear Monty's invited us for drinks.

    Marwood : Balls to Monty. We're getting out.

    Withnail : Balls to Monty? I've just spent an hour flattering the bugger!

    Marwood : There's a man over there that doesn't like the perfume, the big one. Don't look, don't look! We're in danger, we've got to get out.

    Withnail : What are you talking about?

    Marwood : I've been called a ponce.

    Withnail : What fucker said that?

    [the big scary Irishman gets up and walks up to them. Withnail freezes in terror with a mouthful of pie]

    Irishman : I called him a ponce. And now I'm calling you one, PONCE!

    Withnail : [smiling] Would you like a drink?

    Irishman : [ripping Withnail's tartan scarf off his neck] What's your name, MacFuck?

    Withnail : I have a heart condition. I have a heart condition, if you hit me it's murder.

    Irishman : I'll murder the pair of yers!

    Withnail : [close to tears] My wife is having a baby! Listen, I don't know what my f... acquaintance did to upset you but it's nothing to do with me. I suggest you both go outside and discuss it sensibly, in the street.

    [suddenly runs out of the pub screaming "AAAARGGHH!"]

Highlighted in red, he doesn't call "I" his friend, he says acquaintance and then tries to get the guy to kick "I's" ass. Funny, yes, but he's always trying to throw "I" under the bus. Its no wonder he is left behind at the end.

Flip-flopping once again, I'm with Muster on this point. Staying on the I-to-Withnail axis, I don't know that there was a "genuine friendship" there. If there was, it certainly wasn't a deep friendship. In Seinfeld terms, I's relationship with Withnail was more like Jerry's relationship with Kramer (friendship, sure, but not a deep friendship) as opposed to his relationship with George (a deep friendship, at least what constitutes "deep" in the Seinfeld universe).
 
I wonder if the film is a statement on the death of a certain kind of actor. Like Withnail is a relic from a different era. In a different time (Say when notorious drunks like Richard Burton, Peter O'Toole and Oliver Reed were around) he would've been better appreciated and people would've tolerated his shit knowing he could deliver. I suppose that's more of an actors question. I don't really know what the feels of the acting world were back in the late 80's when Withnail & I was made. It's not like British stage actors have ever stopped getting work. And it's not like drunken asshole behaviour ever went away in acting either. I guess it just got replaced with drugs and everyone became obsessed with good PR. I guess the shit that's gone on in Hollywood the last couple of decades makes guys like Withnail, Reed, Burton and O'Toole look like fairies

I would say though that really the difference between the characters isn't the drinks or the drugs which Marwood partakes of almost as much as Withnail its much more their approach to their careers. Withnail has dreams of success but those dreams are based on the idea that pure talent will be acknowledged, he's interested in acting but not in doing the work to build an acting career. Beyond the quotes I would guess a lot of the films appeal is that it speaks to the idea of the talented dreamer who never gets anywhere, the kind of role a great number of people probably see themselves in.
 
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