I don't understand people who rank Nogueira above Stipe

[MyFavSport]

What does Stipe do better than Prime/Pride Nog did.

Stipe hits harder but they both mainly throw 1-2s... while Nog was a BJJ master and had the chin of a Rhino.

Despite being just 240lbs Nog had very slow plodding footwork and he got hurt by it numerous times

 

[MyFavSport]

Stipe's submission defense is pretty much untested.

And with his wrestling noqueira would not get it too the ground and like so many other fights predictable slow nog would get rocked.
Just how i see it.

 

[RogerD]

I know mate, but that’s how it is in my sphere of reality. I became fan of MMA 2007. Should explain it all

I'm a Mir fan but that's silly. Big Nog was already declining when he fought Mir and Mir was in his prime. Big Nog also has a lot more top 10 wins than Mir does. It's like 14 vs 4 or 5.

 

[MartinGibson86]

So Green Werdum is worse than Zombie JDS and Glass Boy Overeem?

Yes

 

[MartinGibson86]

His only losses in his prime are to Fedor and Barnett who are better wins than anyone on Stipe's record. Apparently you're not very good at reading cause i've already said this.

Cormier beats Fedor and abarnett rasily.

Missed him bodyslamming Barnett and pounding Bigfoot fight after Bigfoot killed Fedor?

 

[MartinGibson86]

Except Top 10 HW wins Nogueira has a lot more other good wins like: Jeremy Horn, Henderson, Tamura, Inoue, Sapp, Goodridge, Volk Han
while Stipe has De Fries.

Losses matter a lot less. We are talking about fighters here, and more you fight, the more you will lose.
I would allways give a credit to old school guys who fought a lot, than modern who fight 1-2 times per year.

Gary Goodridge and Sapp az top 10 hw's?

Bravo sir, bravo.

Neither wins against anyone on the current ufc foster MW or above.

Paul Hererra wrestled at 142 pounds in college. Jerry Bohlander is a WW today. Neither would ne sanctioned to fight Big Daddy today.

Joey Beltran is abetter win than either Sapp or Goodridge---way better.

 

[gono btw]

And with his wrestling noqueira would not get it too the ground and like so many other fights predictable slow nog would get rocked.
Just how i see it.

Despite being just 240lbs Nog had very slow plodding footwork and he got hurt by it numerous times

hmm... sadly the fight against Sergei [arguably the best MMA boxer ever] kindah disqualifies your assessment.
It iz what it iz.

Thanks, mate. This is a good start, let´s see if we can try to solve this riddle together...

Nog had a significant evolution in terms of skill set from the Rings days:
Indeed, his boxing got better in Pride, after the Cuban stint with the National Team(2002):, he himself admitted that b4 going there, he was technically limited.

Now...what was that qualitative evolution all about?

> Offensively:

Your assessment: "His offence improved with experience..."

Well, that´s kindah inaccurate... B4 the Cuban stint, he had literally Zero Combo in his arsenal.
The Sergei fight was the 1st time he did showcase a substancial improvement in his offensive boxin´. (see gifs in the next post).
Consequently, his offence improved with a legit, new well-rounded trainin´, under the tutelage of Master Dorea (Brazilian boxin´coach who enabled him to have access to the Cuban Boxin´Program).

> Defensively:

Your assessment:
- "his defence always sucked".
- "the head movement of a statue ...."

In WEF & Rings, then in early Pride, he had a pretty limited defensive stance: in particular, no real head movement. More often than not, he would either back-pedal, awkwardly bend or shoot for the TD.

Now, see the evolution in the Sergei fight:

Indeed, watchin´ (or rewatchin´a fight) is hardly enough when you truly wanna assess a technical sequence, and by extension, a skill set & its evolution.
That´s why those ['biased', right?] threads are called 'Deconstructing': you literally need to 'deconstruct' the technical sequences... frame by frame...

Check:

Spoiler: Nog vs Sergei

View attachment 753515 View attachment 753521 View attachment 753523 View attachment 753529 View attachment 753531 View attachment 753533 View attachment 753535 View attachment 753537 View attachment 753543 View attachment 753551

Context 1: He did say b4 the fight that he would stand with him b4 tryin´ to take him down.

Context 2: This was the 1st fight of a one-night tournament where his main rival, Fedor, had the easier fight (got the finish in 54s...). Consequently, Nog´s main preoccupation should have been to get it to the ground ASAP, right?
But... he opted for a different path. He chose to stand with [arguably] the best HW MMA boxer ever (best & quickest jab), and only shot for the TD after 3mn30 sec...
It´s quite understandable, tbh... Any MMArtist would want to test a new improvement in his skill set, against the very best... But, it was a rather tricky decision...

Spoiler: Nog´s combo

View attachment 753579View attachment 753581View attachment 753583

 

[MartinGibson86]

You are joking using Bob Sapp right? I’m 2002 Sapp beat Ernesto Hoost back to back. Hoost was perhaps the best striker to every live. Sapp beat him twice.

Sapp was 360lbs of Solid muscle back then and was coming to win. People talk about Lesnar being a physical freak... we have never in MMA seen anyone physically like Bob Sapp in his prime. There was a 140lbs weight difference, let’s not pretend Sapp was a pushover.

View attachment 764036

Sapp has zero quality mma wins. Beating Hoost speaks to the ineffeciency of "K1 level striking" lol

Just try and imagine Sapp beating a top 100 boxer, let slone an all time great.

Comparing Sapp to Lesnar is blind hatred of UFC/the mainstream.

 

[Azure]

I rank Nog above Stipe currently.. He had the better and longer career and fought tougher guys in their primes who were roided to the gills(he may have been as well but that was the era). By the time he came to the UFC he was not the same fighter and had many hard fights on that body. Stipe beat just about everyone they put in front of him(which is all a fighter can do) but it was arguably in a weaker HW division with many of the HW's being holdovers from the old days. Many of the guys we fought were well past their prime. I think that if Stipe keeps fighting that he can at some point move past Nog..

But for me not at this point.

 

[PalmStrike]

Okay...Ive noticed some hate for Barnetto in this thread.

Stop that.

Barnetto was a complete fighter and a beast.

Now, as far a s Francis being a force in Pride...no way bros...Pride had many Francis' on the roster.

Francis isnt more dangerous than Hunto was and Hunto struggled to get wins in Pride.

 

[MyFavSport]

hmm... sadly the fight against Sergei [arguably the best MMA boxer ever] kindah disqualifies your assessment.
It iz what it iz.

One fight doesnt disqualify anything. He was a slow foooted predictable punching bag

 

[AladdinSane]

TS is a Grade A loser and imbecile and any true mod with some respect should ban him and everyone who agreed with him. Utter sacrilege Nog is number 2 of all time and Stipe with his wins over aging washed up fighters is as exciting as watching pain dry. Nog is an go legend whose fights with Fedor and Crocop are spoken of in hushed whispers. Stipe was being underrated by a lot of folks when he first came thru, and his boxing was something to behold. But no his career is maybe more on par with someone like Tim Sylvia or Mir.

 

[gono btw]

One fight doesnt disqualify anything. He was a slow foooted predictable punching bag

Mediocre assessment.

Modus Operandi: Watch the fights, then drop your assessments.

 

[fzoid4454]

its actually equally as relevant as your entire post. youre focusing so closely on a bad loss, but the other guys you hold in higher regard (when compared to stipe) have losses that are just as bad, if not worse. so its all pointless to discuss. thats actually the point i was making lol.

What "other guys"? The topic is Stipe vs Nog.

If that's a Fedor reference,
(A) I never said anything about Fedor, and
(B) you'll note I didn't say losing to Struve was disqualifying, just that Stipe needs a more comprehensive body of work to offset that horrible and embarrassing loss.
(C) Fedor being undefeated for about a decade where he ruled as the top HW in the world, undisputed, would certainly qualify as "a more comprehensive body of work," and losing to a light-heavyweight, who is in the HOF and is acknowledged as having arguably most devastating single punch in MMA history, when Fedor was already in obvious decline from his prime, doesn't qualify as being in the same category as losing to a mediocre journeyman when Stipe is in his physical prime.

So, yeah, really a non sequitur, unrelated and random as it relates to anything that I wrote in the comment you were responding to.

 

[fzoid4454]

If Big Tim wants to engage in a firefight with Stipe then he's a moron.

I also think there's a few fighters that would beat Big Tim that Stipe would maul. It's about match ups.

He did want to box Merciless Ray Mercer, with a chin that could break granite, and when that got changed to an MMA matchup at the last minute, he did decide to honor Mercer's complaint and after throwing one leg kick that obviously pissed Mercer off, decided to shuffle forward, immobile, to try and throw hands with him, which is generous in description since the shuffling didn't include any actual throwing of hands/jabs. That fight only lasted until Mercer threw his first punch, so how stupid that was, strategically, maybe isn't completely established due to insufficient sample size.



I don't think it's established that Sylvia being a moron is out of the realm of possibility.

^^^^
My entire response is basically a pretext for posting one of my favorite videos, again.

 

[Doug Money]

Nog Also beat prime sapp and hendo. Quality wins.

 

[fzoid4454]

Posting about Sylvia v Mercer made me think of this video, which I wish more people would watch before spouting off whenever an MMA person thinks they could take boxers on in boxing.

 

[DayV]

Gary Goodridge and Sapp az top 10 hw's?

Bravo sir, bravo.

Neither wins against anyone on the current ufc foster MW or above.

Paul Hererra wrestled at 142 pounds in college. Jerry Bohlander is a WW today. Neither would ne sanctioned to fight Big Daddy today.

Joey Beltran is abetter win than either Sapp or Goodridge---way better.

Sapp would pulverize most of MMA fighters in 2002.
Nogueira as No 1 fighter in the world just barley survived after taking enormeous damage, Sapp nearly borke his spine.
Someone like Couture would have no answer to Sapp. Can't outwrestle him, can't knock him out, does not have expert submissions like Minotauro, no space to run around in the ring. Sapp that started loosing was 5-6 years older one who did not train seriously any more, younger Sapp had enrormeous size and strenght, good gas tank and endurance and trained seriously with Maurice Smith and Josh Barnett.
Anyone who actually watched K-1 and Pride at that time knows how much was Sapp feared.

Beltran had totally irrelevant MMA career, while Goodridge was known pioneer and UFC tournament finalist who had good wins vs Taktarov, Bohlander, Pedro Otavio, and just 2 months before Noguiera fight recorded a Top 10 ranked win vs Valentijn Overeem who was coming off victories vs Couture, Sobral and Freeman.

 

[moreorless87]

I would point out Werdum was not "green" when he fought Nog, he'd actually been fighting MMA for 4 years by that point and was far from clueless standing having worked with Crocop's team for a couple of years. I actually think that boxing wise he'd picked up most of his game by that point, it was just that he lacked the clich game/knees he developed at chute boxe. On the other hand though Pride Werdum was much more agile and actually a decent takedown threat whilst UFC Werdum rarely got anyone decent down.

Also watch the second match and you see even an old declined Nog outboxes a UFC Werdum before losing via grappling which Werdum was just as good at or better in 2006. I strongly suspect 2006 Nog vs 2014 Werdum would pan out much the same way as the 2006 fight with Werdum getting outboxed, maybe he might offer a bit more threat in the clinch but Nog was actually quite strong there himself so would not be easy to do much against.

 

[C0NCH3TO]

Cause one lost to Struve lol.