International French Leaders: American social sciences destroying our Republic

[Yehudim]

Thanks. Although I'm not sure I agree about us not invading countries for oil. I think people like Trump and Neera Tanden have admitted as much. Most have the discipline not to give up the plot, though.

Well Trump was the one case where he actually acted on that, and we did not benefit from the oil, as we were just guarding oil fields in Syria.

If you really feel that way, you can post some examples. Iraq is the obvious one and yet American firms weren’t big players in Iraqi oil, you can look up online who produces the most oil in Iraq, and we aren’t dominating.

I don’t take these cliches seriously when the invading country end up putting in more than they took out. So either the Bush admin was seriously inept in dominating Iraqi oil, or that wasn’t the intent.

Remember that post-Iraq war was when gasoline prices started getting expensive.

We had/have our navy all over the important oil shipping lanes in the Middle East, securing resources prior to 9/11 was not a serious risk so Iraq was not exactly a part of a grand geopolitical strategy.

But maybe I’m just seeing things differently. I tend to care about facts, which is seriously inconvenient to certain views. I’m not someone who exactly rejected the view that Dick Cheney organized the Iraqi invasion for his personal benefit, but then it started to make less sense as time went on.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Well Trump was the one case where he actually acted on that, and we did not benefit from the oil, as we were just guarding oil fields in Syria.

If you really feel that way, you can post some examples. Iraq is the obvious one and yet American firms weren’t big players in Iraqi oil, you can look up online who produces the most oil in Iraq, and we aren’t dominating.

I don’t take these cliches seriously when the invading country end up putting in more than they took out. So either the Bush admin was seriously inept in dominating Iraqi oil, or that wasn’t the intent.

Remember that post-Iraq war was when gasoline prices started getting expensive.

We had/have our navy all over the important oil shipping lanes in the Middle East, securing resources prior to 9/11 was not a serious risk so Iraq was not exactly a part of a grand geopolitical strategy.

But maybe I’m just seeing things differently. I tend to care about facts, which is seriously inconvenient to certain views. I’m not someone who exactly rejected the view that Dick Cheney organized the Iraqi invasion for his personal benefit, but then it started to make less sense as time went on.

Just to be clear, I don't think taking the oil was the primary motivation by any means. But loose lipped Trump talked about it publicly and then Neera Tanden talked about it privately in emails that were leaked. So I do think it goes on and is a motivating factor to some people to some extent. I'm not incredibly well versed on this one issue, I admit.

 

[Brazilian HKD]

The problem with it is not the term itself, it's the massive misunderstanding of the American Conservative community which equates classical Marxism with the modern progressivist agenda. Generally speaking they call everyone they don't like "Marxists" without having read a single page from Marx, just like the left calls everyone "Nazis" or "Fascists" without understanding Fascism.

There's a massive gap between the original Marxism of the 20s and 30s, and what was pushed in the US in the 60s up to today.

I get what you mean.
One of the biggest critics of the American left are actually classic marxists.
But what makes the whole thing even more complicated os the involvement of religious marxist organizations who pick and choose which one to follow depending on who is being more popular at the time.

Although I must say that post Rosa Luxemburgo, Marxism has taken some odd ways too. Her teleological view of marxism as a form to avoid certain barbarism still sounds waaay too messianic to me.

 

[Yehudim]

Just to be clear, I don't think taking the oil was the primary motivation by any means. But loose lipped Trump talked about it publicly and then Neera Tanden talked about it privately in emails that were leaked. So I do think it goes on and is a motivating factor to some people to some extent. I'm not incredibly well versed on this one issue, I admit.

No, like I said, oil was the only thing keeping Trump in Syria to protect our allied Kurds, but it was basically an excuse cooked up by the Pentagon to safeguard our Kurdish allies and still have a seat at the Syrian table in case of future negotiations.

So yeah, in that one case it is true we kept US forces in Syria to basically take foreign oil, because Donald Trump could make that final decision, but we never actually exploited the oil fields (not that we would need them; were an oil exporter now) and it was a pretext anyways by his advisors to keep our guys in Syria.

 

[TheMaster]

What country has a better university system?

UK and Germany for sure, various other European countries also. Maybe Russia as well.

 

[Denter]

TLDR: "It's the fault of Whitey Frenchy!"
And ofc Khabib Khanate loves that post.
Fucking revisionist cope shit I've ever read, typical hogwash that these immigrant apologists and anti French Americans in France say.
Anyone who knows anything about what really happened in Algeria, and in modern France with the Maghrebi community, knows this post is full of shit.

They deliberately invited them in. They posted advertisements for workers in villages across North Africa. I think that was a dumb idea, but that's what they did.

 

[Wingslaught]

The French could fix their most pressing problems by deporting all the Muslims from their land and implementing strict immigration policies. Instead, they'll continue with the status quo and suffer the occasional gruesome decapitation at the hands of people they were kind, or foolish, enough to take in.

 

[Wolfbrigade]

The irony of course is that post-modernism in the retarded philosophical sense and a whole lotta other terrible ideas were given birth in France.

-Where does the Church believe this pestilence has come from?
-I say from France, where all foul things emerge.

 

[GreenGorilla]

Thanks. Although I'm not sure I agree about us not invading countries for oil. I think people like Trump and Neera Tanden have admitted as much. Most have the discipline not to give up the plot, though.

Well I do not think the US invaded Irak because Sadam was such a big meanie bully, if that was really the reasoning the US would never be as close to most gulf states as they are and I mean honestly when has any empire,state,nation whatever you wanna call it done something without self-interest.

 

[GreenGorilla]

I'll spare you the details of France's conquest of North Africa, their attempt to incorporate Algeria into Metropolitan France, and the horror of the guerilla war there that lead to independence. That's all in the past.

However, the main bullet points of this are (I will go dig up sources if you insist):

1. France encourages Algerian immigration in the 50s-70s. They then somehow expect these people to turn into tanned Frenchmen and be docile taxpayers, while at the same time waging a brutal guerilla war in their homeland. They then culturally and socially discriminate against these same people in the succeeding decades, while the immigrants acculturate in an oppositional way, at the same time losing their social customs that mediate their worst impulses. This results in a socially disconnected and isolated population, who lack a connection to their traditional cultural institutions, and become ghettoized. You see this with many groups that came as outsiders to the West.

2. The result of this is that Algerians in France have become worse than Algerians in Algeria itself. Algeria has a murder rate per million (the most reliable crime stat) of 14.4, which isn't great, but much better than say, ours at 42 something, and only slightly better than France's (12). But, if you break down these numbers, Algerians in France commit a wildly disproportionate amount of crime, such that if you compare them to Algerians in Algeria, they are far more violent. They are also less religious, with maybe 30-40% being religious, compared to like 85% in Algeria itself- except they support violent Islamic groups at shockingly high rates, another sign of their social dislocation. They are more likely to use drugs than their cousins back home. They have a profoundly negative outlook, and feel and act like outsiders.

Is this situation preferable to assimilation? I'm not sure anymore. Assimilation in the US has its own problems, but I suppose its better than in France.

EDIT: It's devilishly hard to find demographic data on the French criminal justice system, as it is illegal to collect statistics on race. My estimates are based on prison population.

Same thing happened in Germany with a majority turkish/italian/balkan population, except Germany never planned for them to stay, only to help strengthen the economy after WW2. They put them in low income neighborhoods and isolated them from the rest of the country which results in a very split identity for these people. Young "muslims" in Germany do not really have a clue about religion since they are from rather secular families often(Atatürk is still popular with a lot of people) and most of them speak no arabic, most extremist recruiters use that to their advantage and use propaganda in german language. The whole problem with migration and 2nd 3rd gen younger people stems from the governments not really thinking it through, governments keep making these mistakes sadly, a certain grade assimilation isn't bad at all imo, I remember at a intercultural competence seminar I was visiting the Women leading it told a story of an afghan refugee woman who complained that she didn't learn anything about german culture and said the quote: "Too much understanding for a migrant hurts." The racism of low espectations, all these problems are very complicated and not as simple as populists on both sides like to paint them.

 

[Denter]

That's true. But stop saying "The French" (when its a small group of capitalists), and stop blaming "The French" (as if giving some people an opportunity to work in a 1st world country is a major crime). They came, brought a backward culture, and caused massive problems. That's the reality.

You're right- obviously I wouldn't want everything our government or its associates does associated with me either.

 

[Denter]

Same thing happened in Germany with a majority turkish/italian/balkan population, except Germany never planned for them to stay, only to help strengthen the economy after WW2. They put them in low income neighborhoods and isolated them from the rest of the country which results in a very split identity for these people. Young "muslims" in Germany do not really have a clue about religion since they are from rather secular families often(Atatürk is still popular with a lot of people) and most of them speak no arabic, most extremist recruiters use that to their advantage and use propaganda in german language. The whole problem with migration and 2nd 3rd gen younger people stems from the governments not really thinking it through, governments keep making these mistakes sadly, a certain grade assimilation isn't bad at all imo, I remember at a intercultural competence seminar I was visiting the Women leading it told a story of an afghan refugee woman who complained that she didn't learn anything about german culture and said the quote: "Too much understanding for a migrant hurts." The racism of low espectations, all these problems are very complicated and not as simple as populists on both sides like to paint them.

It's funny, Helmut Kohl actually had a plan to send fully half the Turks back to Turkey in the 80s- this obviously never happened but is funny. https://www.dw.com/en/kohl-wanted-to-reduce-germanys-turkish-population-by-one-half/a-16992682

 

[Denter]

Oh boy, I am sure this account will last.

Anyway what really happened in Algeria?

I think the period of colonization is fascinating (1830s) but the French are generally in deep denial about the chasseurs d'afrique and other unpleasantness of the time.

 

[GreenGorilla]

It's funny, Helmut Kohl actually had a plan to send fully half the Turks back to Turkey in the 80s- this obviously never happened but is funny. https://www.dw.com/en/kohl-wanted-to-reduce-germanys-turkish-population-by-one-half/a-16992682

Never heard about that but there has been a lot of politicians talking about deportations in the past.
The newer generations can be even more segregated than older ones because of new subcultures and new places in the public space. Funnily enough the same people who were the target back when they arrived later spoke out about a lot new immigrants from romania and bulgaria not integrating into society, it is just a cycle I do not know how long it will continue tbh.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Not really in the mood to explain on a Karate forum, about 200 years of history, which most haven't even opened a history book.
Let's just say that "Algeria" did not even exist when the French came. It is a French invention. Before that, it was a semi-arid wasteland of Oasis and desert, ruled by the Ottoman Empire who just enslaved the region.

What the French did is build an entire prosperous first world country out of a desert. They brought millions of French people to work and establish something there (hence why it became a French department, not just a colony). When it became prosperous, that's what attracted the Muslims who came mostly from mountain villages far from the coast (how they lived for over 1000 years).

French Algeria only became a problem when the cities (which the French founded like Oran) became full of Arabs/Muslims because of rural exodus, and the ratio of White/Arab became problematic. That's when the problems started.

But the Muslims make it sound (Arab propaganda) as if the Maghreb was just plundered by the French, and before some peaceful people just lived there. No! And by the way its a repeat in all of Africa with what the Europeans did. Most of the time, we came, we worked our asses off, and the locals ended up just killing us, raping us. We got shafted in the end.

So I laugh whenever the Algerian bastards ask for reparations. Fucking scum.
And Americans are fucking bastards because they pressured European countries like France to give up Algeria, and pushed the anti-European narrative.

And then there are people on this forum, most of whom have studied ZERO HISTORY, which claim to know it. It's laughable.
And you're clearly a mod that's pro Muslim, pro revisionism. Sorry.

That feeling when you know a post is going to be bad and then it exceeds expectations

 

[Denter]

Not really in the mood to explain on a Karate forum, about 200 years of history, which most haven't even opened a history book.
Let's just say that "Algeria" did not even exist when the French came. It is a French invention. Before that, it was a semi-arid wasteland of Oasis and desert, ruled by the Ottoman Empire who just enslaved the region.

What the French did is build an entire prosperous first world country out of a desert. They brought millions of French people to work and establish something there (hence why it became a French department, not just a colony). When it became prosperous, that's what attracted the Muslims who came mostly from mountain villages far from the coast (how they lived for over 1000 years).

French Algeria only became a problem when the cities (which the French founded like Oran) became full of Arabs/Muslims because of rural exodus, and the ratio of White/Arab became problematic. That's when the problems started.

But the Muslims make it sound (Arab propaganda) as if the Maghreb was just plundered by the French, and before some peaceful people just lived there. No! And by the way its a repeat in all of Africa with what the Europeans did. Most of the time, we came, we worked our asses off, and the locals ended up just killing us, raping us. We got shafted in the end.

So I laugh whenever the Algerian bastards ask for reparations. Fucking scum.
And Americans are fucking bastards because they pressured European countries like France to give up Algeria, and pushed the anti-European narrative.

And then there are people on this forum, most of whom have studied ZERO HISTORY, which claim to know it. It's laughable.
And you're clearly a mod that's pro Muslim, pro revisionism. Sorry.

History is complicated. Algiers was a nest of pirates and slavers- there are no easy narratives with the past.

 

[Limbo Pete]

I speak 4 languages and hold an MSc from a French university.
I've read countless books on 20th century history.
Who the fuck are you? If you want to debate me, write a thesis. Or fuck off.

<puh-lease75>

 

[GreenGorilla]

"The whole problem with migration and 2nd 3rd gen younger people stems from the governments not really thinking it through"
Here we go again! It's not the fault of the immigrant! It's the fault of Whitey Germans who haven't done enough to integrate the immigrants!

Just fuck!

Calm down there buddy, nobody said it is not the fault of a person if they commit a crime but if you let in a population and seperate them from the main group what do you expect to happen?
They magically become integrated into it?
Nobody claims that if some morons throw their life away doing dumb shit they have no responsibility but the whole situation started with a not well thought through solution, not very different from France packing all their migrants into the banlieues then letting them fare on their own.
Stop victimizing yourself lmao.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Interesting what has been happening in France

 

[SanchoMF]

Calm down there buddy, nobody said it is not the fault of a person if they commit a crime but if you let in a population and seperate them from the main group what do you expect to happen?
They magically become integrated into it?
Nobody claims that if some morons throw their life away doing dumb shit they have no responsibility but the whole situation started with a not well thought through solution, not very different from France packing all their migrants into the banlieues then letting them fare on their own.
Stop victimizing yourself lmao.

...Fare on their own doesn't really do justice to the reality of the situation at hand in France.
Would you happen to have an idea how much this "faring on their own" costs the nation annually, given that the majority of any state-aide is going to the banlieues and that the income tax in these places is practically 0. I'm not even talking about other social programs and 'associations" getting public funds.
You cant "force-mix" different social classes (HLM's existed in France before immigration and that was the primary place of welcome in the beginning because we are talking about mostly unskilled manual labourers with low income). The "cités" came in the late 60's and really only in the 70's when the situation was already getting ridiculous. There's a very limited need for unskilled labour today, let alone their families who need aide to survive (also, the distribution of this immigration focuses on more expensive major city areas so even more aide is needed.)
Does one have to try or it's up to the welcoming party make sure that they'll get everything, even if that would require much more investment than its own citizens?
Does the arriving individual have any responsibility?