Good post Sherbro overall your goat list is respectable and has the right names I just wanted to pick your brain on the methodology which I think overall is sound. I gotta ask why the drastic change in writing style lol
I raised an issue with the methodology that my friend @Myrddin Wild uses, which I don’t believe has ever been fully addressed.
The problem is that many fighters fall off a cliff as their career progresses. That is normal. Not only does his system devalue many GOAT candidates’ wins, but it totally devalues anyone who beat one of those guys,
—Weidman’s wins over Silva are meaningless, since Silva went 1-5-1 afterwards (and the 1 win was a gift).
—Dillashaw’s wins over Barao? Meaningless as he went 1-6 after the 2nd Dillashaw fight.
—Frankie beating BJ Penn? Meaningless, as BJ went 1-7-1 after those fights.
—Even Werdum’s win over Fedor becomes problematic. Fedor lost his next 2, and while has a winning record overall since then, he never fought at that elite level again.
This is the main reason I reject that methodology.
I raised an issue with the methodology that my friend @Myrddin Wild uses, which I don’t believe has ever been fully addressed.
The problem is that many fighters fall off a cliff as their career progresses. That is normal. Not only does his system devalue many GOAT candidates’ wins, but it totally devalues anyone who beat one of those guys,
—Weidman’s wins over Silva are meaningless, since Silva went 1-5-1 afterwards (and the 1 win was a gift).
—Dillashaw’s wins over Barao? Meaningless as he went 1-6 after the 2nd Dillashaw fight.
—Frankie beating BJ Penn? Meaningless, as BJ went 1-7-1 after those fights.
—Even Werdum’s win over Fedor becomes problematic. Fedor lost his next 2, and while has a winning record overall since then, he never fought at that elite level again.
This is the main reason I reject that methodology.
Yeah there are some things about the methodology I don’t 100% agree with but I will agree he places a little too much emphasis on the what comes after the win which is why I said recent history is equally as important which is why I brought up Moicano, Vera and Font for Aldo.
I was a little confused what he counts as an “elite level win”. Which is why I asked about the inclusion of Hieron, Monson, Herring since due to his criteria I find it hard to count those and not the three Aldo victories I mentioned. Will say these types of rankings are art as well as science and overall his list has the heavy hitters on it even if I don’t 100% agree with how he got there.
Yeah there are some things about the methodology I don’t 100% agree with but I will agree he places a little too much emphasis on the what comes after the win which is why I said recent history is equally as important which is why I brought up Moicano, Vera and Font for Aldo.
I was a little confused what he counts as an “elite level win”. Which is why I asked about the inclusion of Hieron, Monson, Herring since due to his criteria I find it hard to count those and not the three Aldo victories I mentioned. Will say these types of rankings are art as well as science and overall his list has the heavy hitters on it even if I don’t 100% agree with how he got there.
Yeah I agree, I try to be as objective as possible but there’s always a little art and subjectivity in there. That methodology also doesn’t account well for external factors: what if a fighter falls off a cliff due to injury, or because USADA banned IVs and now they can’t rehydrate like they used to, etc, etc. I really respect and appreciate the effort that Mr. Wild put into the system, but I just can’t get on board with it.
Fedor, Jones, Anderson, GSP, Aldo, and Mighty Mouse have more ranked victories than any other fighter you can name from their respective weightclass... because they were the champions and fighting top ranked talent longer than whoever else you want to bring up.
The subjectivity to this conversation is entirely in peoples heads and it's never based on actual reality. It's always "Well Khabib would destroy GSP in a fight so he's the GOAT", which isn't actually based on anything other than someones personal speculative opinion.
The guy who won more championships had the better career. I always use Tom Brady as the example. Everyone sees Tom Brady as the NFL GOAT because he won the most championships. Was he the most talented player? Most definitely not, there's a reason he was drafted in the 6th round. But he won the most the championships so he's the GOAT. Nobody argues it. It's pretty simple stuff.
Championship victories are all that matter. Count 'em up and congrats you've just figured out who was the best.
Good post Sherbro overall your goat list is respectable and has the right names I just wanted to pick your brain on the methodology which I think overall is sound. I gotta ask why the drastic change in writing style lol
...not sure what "drastic change in writing style" you're referring to though. I used to put a "z" if an "s" haz a "z sound... (such az teh word "showz." etc...) but it waz interfering with non-english speaking people'z translator software & so I try to avoid that, though I do still sneak them in from time to time. Other than that, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I raised an issue with the methodology that my friend @Myrddin Wild uses, which I don’t believe has ever been fully addressed.
The problem is that many fighters fall off a cliff as their career progresses. That is normal. Not only does his system devalue many GOAT candidates’ wins, but it totally devalues anyone who beat one of those guys,
—Weidman’s wins over Silva are meaningless, since Silva went 1-5-1 afterwards (and the 1 win was a gift).
—Dillashaw’s wins over Barao? Meaningless as he went 1-6 after the 2nd Dillashaw fight.
—Frankie beating BJ Penn? Meaningless, as BJ went 1-7-1 after those fights.
—Even Werdum’s win over Fedor becomes problematic. Fedor lost his next 2, and while has a winning record overall since then, he never fought at that elite level again.
This is the main reason I reject that methodology.
Yeah there are some things about the methodology I don’t 100% agree with but I will agree he places a little too much emphasis on the what comes after the win which is why I said recent history is equally as important which is why I brought up Moicano, Vera and Font for Aldo.
I was a little confused what he counts as an “elite level win”. Which is why I asked about the inclusion of Hieron, Monson, Herring since due to his criteria I find it hard to count those and not the three Aldo victories I mentioned. Will say these types of rankings are art as well as science and overall his list has the heavy hitters on it even if I don’t 100% agree with how he got there.
Yeah I agree, I try to be as objective as possible but there’s always a little art and subjectivity in there. That methodology also doesn’t account well for external factors: what if a fighter falls off a cliff due to injury, or because USADA banned IVs and now they can’t rehydrate like they used to, etc, etc. I really respect and appreciate the effort that Mr. Wild put into the system, but I just can’t get on board with it.
The thing is that it's not rigid. It's a guide to start the conversation.
If you want to make the case that USADA didn't cause Barao's "mysterious & sudden" fall from grace, then we can talk about that & amend it.
BJ's time was up at some point, if you want to dispute that he looked like he was all there still, then we can look at our Hawaiian bro who had a tendency to "not show up" randomly throughout his whole career. At some point though it's clear he couldn't compete at the same level, and my system is a great way to start that conversation.
hope that makes sense.
I think Weidman gets Silva 1... however him & Werdum are not even in teh GOAT discussion, so it's pointless imo to hash out.
If someone wants to make a case for them being in teh top 10 GOATs, then we can talk about it.
The list should only include people without multiple suspensions for PED violations.
GSP
Khabib
Fedor
MM
I think Anderson Silva only had one PED violation late in his career? I can't remember. Either way, he's borderline for making the list because of that.
I’m actually sick with what I hope/think is just a cold, so tried to go to bed early last night.
But the other reason you sometimes don’t get replies from me is that there’s no point. We’ve debated this stuff till we’re both blue in the face. You are going to continue to imagine that everyone who fought pre-2015 was so primitive they couldn’t bang two rocks together to make fire, and that those same fighters magically stay in prime and at their very best forever and ever, so that when some up-and-coming fighter beats them when they’re 10-12 years into their career—which is typical in combat sports—you can pretend they’re the up-and-comer greatest thing ever and the GOATiest of GOATs, and just jump from hyped fighter to hyped fighter.
The reason Cruz didn’t dominate (no pun intended) at that point is because he was held together by duct tape and cadaver tissue, and was 11 years and like 25 fights deep into his career. The fact that he made 2 comebacks from this—once to trounce Mizugaki, and then after being injured again returned to beat Dillashaw, whom everyone swore was Cruz 2.0—is absolutely amazing, and is not typical.
The fact that you would trash Dom’s resume, but prop up freaking Henry Cejudo’s, is straight laughable. Evidently you think a lot more highly of Dustin Kimura, Chico Camus, Chris Cariaso, and depleted FLW Dillashaw than I do.
Yes, becoming champ-champ is not easy—but it’s a whole lot easier when the opportunity is gifted instead of earned. I am fine with longtime champs like GSP or Jones coming back for those shots; I am fine with Amanda Nunes, who cleaned out her division, getting that shot. But this shit is way, wayyyy out of hand.
—Jose Aldo cleaned out his division like twice, and Dana wouldn’t let him fight for the LW belt without vacating his FW belt first. And yet:
Conor is allowed to do it for no particular reason.
Cejudo is allowed to do it for no particular reason.
Holloway is allowed to fight for a LW interim for no particular reason.
Even Cormier really didn’t have a great case for it, but that one wasn’t so bad.
And tomorrow, it happens again. There are contenders for Volk to fight at FW. Islam had a pretty skimpy road to the title, and hasn’t even defended it a single time. There’s no reason to make this fight at all.
You might as well just change your username to WMETalks, because you certainly don’t care much for the “All Time” part of “Greatest of All Time.”
Point #1
25 fights and 11 years fighting? So what?
Volkanovski has 26 fights and a 11 year career
Islam has 24 fights and a 13 year career
Leon has 24 fights and a 12 year career
Kamaru has 24 fights and a 11 year career
Izzy has 25 fights and a 11 year career
That’s the current p4p top5 ranking. I guess all of them are out of prime, lol.
Cruz is a good, not great wrestler, has an unorthodox and unpredictable striking, but lacks power and was considered a big BW back in the day.
He didn’t lose to Cody because he fell out of prime, Cody was a better boxer with great TDD, much faster and had a perfect game plan.
Cejudo is a better wrestler than Dom, has more power, cleaner technique and he didn’t head hunt Cruz, but chopped his legs off, making Cruz style ineffective. Nothing to do with age.
Point #2
If you actually look at my GOAT list it’s actually way more representative of different eras than yours. Fedor, Anderson, GSP definitely had the best parts of their careers before my time, yet I have no problem acknowledging their work.
Point #3
You constantly dismiss glaring holes in your favourite fighters game and try to pretend they only lost because they were “out of prime.
-Fedor lost Werdum because of poor fight IQ, to Big Foot because he’s an undersized HW. His striking has wild and he only relied on speed and power. His wrestling is over rated and I think he lost to Arona, getting suplexed by Randleman isn’t great and struggling under Hunt is very bad. His submission game was basic and only worked on guys who didn’t know any BJJ.
-Aldo’s explosive blitzes are perfect for counter punching, Conor predicted the exact sequence how he would KO him. He also had stamina issues and someone like Holloway would’ve always drowned him. Volk is better everywhere.
The reason I have fighters like Khabib, DC and Cejudo so high on my list, isn’t because they fought more recently, but because of their incredible skill sets.
I raised an issue with the methodology that my friend @Myrddin Wild uses, which I don’t believe has ever been fully addressed.
The problem is that many fighters fall off a cliff as their career progresses. That is normal. Not only does his system devalue many GOAT candidates’ wins, but it totally devalues anyone who beat one of those guys,
—Weidman’s wins over Silva are meaningless, since Silva went 1-5-1 afterwards (and the 1 win was a gift).
—Dillashaw’s wins over Barao? Meaningless as he went 1-6 after the 2nd Dillashaw fight.
—Frankie beating BJ Penn? Meaningless, as BJ went 1-7-1 after those fights.
—Even Werdum’s win over Fedor becomes problematic. Fedor lost his next 2, and while has a winning record overall since then, he never fought at that elite level again.
This is the main reason I reject that methodology.
Fedor
Khabib
Jones
Silva
GSP
Volk
DC
MM
Big Nog
Aldo or Max
I dont weigh metrics like 'title defenses' as heavily as others because the sport is much bigger now and title shots are not given after just a couple of wins like they used to be.
I've done my findingz based on "level of competition after fighting teh GOAT" & give ONE GOAT POINT for every legit high quality win.
I've been drug through teh mud for decades... & teh entire time since I first posted it, however, I adapted my list as your generous though sarcastic retorts would validate. iow... I actually listened & compared what I felt were valid retorts through teh years & this is what I've come up with for high quality wins.
Fedor = 9 – Arona, Herring, Big Nog (Twice) , Cro Cop, Hunt, Arlovski, Sobrol, Coleman I (not 2) (Monson always right there at the gate but never really broke through. Shout out to 60 wins). (This was one of the trickiest lists to develop) (Must consider his run as a multiple Sambo world champ during his GOAT run that the others didn’t have.)
GSP = 9 –Karo, Heiron, Mayhem, Sherk, Fitch, Shieds, Condit, Hendricks, Hughes (but the 2nd Hughes win I'm hard pressed to count due to Hughes not looking all there & proving that point by losing a lot after that & fighting people about to retire.) (Bisping had the belt at the time so that’s a strong case for another GOAT point, but he didn't look that good against a slower GSP & got ktfo in his next fight. I also thought Hendo took the belt from Bisping) (shoutout to an undersized Penn)
Aldo = 8 (9) – Cub, Uriah, Lamas, Jung, Edgar (twice) Mendez (twice) (I'm not going to argue with someone if they think Aldo won that Marlon Moraes fight.)
Spider = 8 – Horn, Franklin (twice), Marquardt, Maia, Belfort, Chael, Hendo (Brunson & Leben are both tough calls because they were kind of the gate keepers "just under the gate"... to the top of the division & they kept a lot of good guys beat back but neither of them quite got past the gate themselves. So shout out for both of those wins but I don't think he gets the GOAT point.)(No GOAT point for Spider’s Newton win due to him stalling on the ground to create that standup that won him the fight. He even got the yellow card.) Jones = 8 – Shogun, Bader, Machida, Vitor, Gus1 (not Gus 2), Teix, Lionheart, & DC (DC Once… the 2nd one he cheated) (Gus just got dun beating Teix before Jones 2 which is a helluva win, but he didn't look the same vs Jones & he certainly didn't after. It's a tough call that could be debated but for now I'm not giving him one.)(I really question Lionhearts win over Gus being proof that he's over the gate because clearly something's gone missing in Gus, but atm I gave it to him & by extension, Jones' GOAT point) - The new look of the division is very difficult to access, because there's no real gate atm. All these guys that were under the gate all of a sudden moved into the top spots. Couture - 8 –Vitor x2, Horn, Randleman, Rizzo x2, Liddell, Tito (Couture was a 2 division champ) (could give him a shout for Tim Silvia who didn't look good at all & went on to prove something went missing... but he did have the belt when Couture fought him.) (Gonzaga went on to beat Ben Rothwell but that's a little to little too late. That was cool the way Gabe KO'ed CroCop, but it was the hype from that win that got him the title shot. After seeing CroCops following record in the cage I'm not sure it was even justified so it's hard to give a GOAT point for that)
Sakuraba = 7 - Conan, Vernon White, Carlos Newton, Belfort, 90 min Royce followed by HW Igor fight (that he threw down in), Rampage, Randleman (I have a pretty detailed breakdown about his career that I wrote out while working on this list... but with Conan & Vernon both being mid-tier fighters with only one considerable win vs "fairly" top competition after fighting Saku, it should be noted that Saku gets their GOAT point due to that + the weight difference + a masterful performance throwing it over the top.) (Please ask for further breakdown if you doubt this)
Stipe = 7 - Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Reem, JDS, Ngannou, DC 2 (not DC3, DC said he was going to wrestle & then gassed after one attempt... clearly beyond his prime in his retirement fight... plus the Eye poke makes me question a GOAT point too - Karma right... lol)
DC= 7 - "prime & juiced" Bigfoot, Barnett, Rumble 1 (not 2), Gus, Volkan, Black Beast, Stipe (DC was a 2 division champ) (shout out to MW Hendo & Spider) (Black Beast could be questioned but he's been on the upper side of the gate holding everyone back & say what you want about the way he moves... the man gets results. I give it to DC's talent for making it look fairly easy)
Mouse = 7 - Benevidez (twice), Dodson (twice), Moraga, Kyoji, Cejudo (I haven't considered his ONE fights)
Matt Hughes – 6 (9) Akihiro Gono, Newton (x2), Sherk, GSP, BJ Penn, (BJ Penn is questionable, because he was undersized, and I didn’t give GSP credit for his Penn win which was one fight apart, but because Penn caught Hughes in a sub prior to that, I gave Hughes a GOAT point for returning the favor with strikes. I wouldn't really argue with someone one way or the other too much about Giving Hughes a GOAT point for Penn for the reason's stated. I can see both sides of that difficult question. Penn bless.) (maybe Dave Menne, Doerksen, Sakurai. It was very challenging going through his earlier record because I didn’t know most of them, but I spent the time to tediously look into them. These 3 “maybe’s” were upper level guys but I question whether they were above the gate… I might be convinced if someone wants to make that case, we'll watch the fights again & see what we think. At the least, they should get honorable mention.)
Edit: Pride waz admittedly a "fix" for teh firs 10 events. After that, they realized what they had & they became more legit. Chael sayz that fights were still rigged after that due to people "losing" on purpose in certain fights, (while the winner was oblivious to teh fix) but I find that hard to digest at the upper most level regarding Fedor's "significant" wins. I just don't think those top fighters would've sold their top spot for pay. I could be wrong, but anyone wanting to contest that can bring their gripe to teh table and lets discuss it. I've already discussed many... so please have a valid retort if you feel to bother me with this kind of denial.
Fedor
Khabib
Jones
Silva
GSP
Volk
DC
MM
Big Nog
Aldo or Max
I dont weigh metrics like 'title defenses' as heavily as others because the sport is much bigger now and title shots are not given after just a couple of wins like they used to be.
In part, this is because other things in society aren't exactly like athletics. Personally, I do not assume everyone is guilty. For example, I offered up that maybe one or two fighters on the list weren't using banned PEDs. But it takes a lot of naivety to assume that the lack of a failed test means an athlete wasn't juicing, and this is especially true at the elite levels.
Maybe an apt example would be politicians and corruption. It's possible that a politician isn't corrupt, but it's naïve to assume that most are not, especially at the highest levels. And while we can sense this in the party we don't like, we are oblivious when it comes to the pols we support.
Sure I don't assume that every fighter that never popped was clean. I mean, I am an adult lol. But I also don't assume everyone is cheating. That seems to be pure cope from fanbases that are upset their favorite fighter isn't taken seriously in goat conversations anymore.
When a fighter pops, it seems ridiculously unfair to say well it's irrelevant because everyone is cheating, even people that never popped over their entire career. You don't assume everyone is guilty until proven innocent.
Sure I don't assume that every fighter that never popped was clean. I mean, I am an adult lol. But I also don't assume everyone is cheating. That seems to be pure cope from fanbases that are upset their favorite fighter isn't taken seriously in goat conversations anymore.
When a fighter pops, it seems ridiculously unfair to say well it's irrelevant because everyone is cheating, even people that never popped over their entire career. You don't assume everyone is guilty until proven innocent.
What I would add is that I'd never assume a professional athlete is not using banned PEDs, even if they are not caught. I'm not saying they all are dirty, but I always consider it probable that any one athlete is. To take that further, once an athlete is caught one time, I assume they were using other times as well, even though they tested clean every other time they were tested.
So I have no problem with fans docking athlete points on the GOAT list for popping, but I think it silly when they then act like many of the others were completely free of suspicion. It's an unpleasant fact of life in elite sports, not just MMA, that it is more likely than not that your favorite athlete uses steroids and other banned PEDs.
Well aside from the fact that it’s a perfectly reasonable time to fall out of prime, Cruz is a bantamweight whose entire style is built around superior footwork and movement, who had a torn ACL in one knee surgically repaired, the cadaver tissue rejected, a new surgery, a new recovery, only to tear the ACL on his other knee, plus his groin, plus plantar fasciitis… not to mention the shoulder injury. But all of that is just no biggie, right? I mean, he was so injured he only fought once in 5 years, but I’m sure it didn’t accelerate his decline or anything. Nope, same guy he always was, mMA eVoLuTiOn did him in.
Volkanovski has 26 fights and a 11 year career
Islam has 24 fights and a 13 year career
Leon has 24 fights and a 12 year career
Kamaru has 24 fights and a 11 year career
Izzy has 25 fights and a 11 year career
That’s the current p4p top5 ranking. I guess all of them are out of prime, lol.
Cruz is a good, not great wrestler, has an unorthodox and unpredictable striking, but lacks power and was considered a big BW back in the day.
He didn’t lose to Cody because he fell out of prime, Cody was a better boxer with great TDD, much faster and had a perfect game plan.
Cejudo is a better wrestler than Dom, has more power, cleaner technique and he didn’t head hunt Cruz, but chopped his legs off, making Cruz style ineffective. Nothing to do with age.
No bullshit, I saw a post just yesterday that made me think of our convos. The poster was talking about Max Holloway’s obvious decline. Remember when you used to make those lists and include Holloway’s name? I told you Holloway was declining, what—a year, year and a half ago?—and you had full on meltdown. You used to include GloverTeixeira on that list, but not after he got subbed by a Nothing-Belt and then looked very bit his age against Hill, he’s not there anymore, and is retired (as he should be). You used to include Charles Oliveira too. Remember when you told me he was fighting better than he ever has, and I pointed out that his chin is going, he gets dropped every fight, and his striking is wild and sloppy now? I haven’t watched Islam vs Oliveira so don’t spoil it for me—did Charles get dropped yet again and absolutely trucked? I have a feeling he did.
Why do you want to keep playing this game?
And there’s no point in even trying to debate Cruz vs Cejudo, we’ll just go in circles. Cejudo had a nice game plan. Could a younger version of Cejudo have done that to that version of Dom? We’ll never know. Could that version of Cejudo implement that against peak Cruz? We’ll never know.
Point #2
If you actually look at my GOAT list it’s actually way more representative of different eras than yours. Fedor, Anderson, GSP definitely had the best parts of their careers before my time, yet I have no problem acknowledging their work.
I don’t either. In all seriousness, I think that’s an unfair accusation. If I rank HWs, Stipe is #2. If I rank FWs, Volk is #2 (and still going). At LW, Khabib replaced BJ Penn at one point on my list, and actually after looking at it closer I’ve dropped BJ TO #3.
I actually mentioned that if Volk beats Islam, I’ll have to look very hard at whether Volk has cracked my top 10 all time.
My list is not static.
It also doesn’t change daily like the Soup of the Day at Denny’s.
Point #3
You constantly dismiss glaring holes in your favourite fighters game and try to pretend they only lost because they were “out of prime.
-Fedor lost Werdum because of poor fight IQ, to Big Foot because he’s an undersized HW. His striking has wild and he only relied on speed and power. His wrestling is over rated and I think he lost to Arona, getting suplexed by Randleman isn’t great and struggling under Hunt is very bad. His submission game was basic and only worked on guys who didn’t know any BJJ.
-Aldo’s explosive blitzes are perfect for counter punching, Conor predicted the exact sequence how he would KO him. He also had stamina issues and someone like Holloway would’ve always drowned him. Volk is better everywhere.
The reason I have fighters like Khabib, DC and Cejudo so high on my list, isn’t because they fought more recently, but because of their incredible skill sets.
After all our debates, you should know full well this isn’t true.
“Perception of skill set” is a terrible ranking criteria, almost entirely subjective, and this is why so many of your rankings don’t make sense.
Let’s pretend you’re right about Fedor losing to Werdum solely because of poor fight IQ, Bigfoot solely because he’s undersized, etc.
Ok fine.
—12 ranked wins, with 11 unique opponents.
—7 total title wins
—5 total title defenses (which I weight, giving PRIDE defenses the same significance as UFC defenses, and WAMMA defenses similar to Strikeforce, DREAM, Bellator, etc).
—5 former/future UFC champs beaten in that run
—Undefeated while attaining those stats
Those are the metrics.
Stipe didn’t surpass that.
Ngannou didn’t surpass that.
Gane, JDS, Cain, Cormier, whoever—they didn’t surpass that.
That’s what matters.
The list should only include people without multiple suspensions for PED violations.
GSP
Khabib
Fedor
MM
I think Anderson Silva only had one PED violation late in his career? I can't remember. Either way, he's borderline for making the list because of that.
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& sudden" fall from grace, then we can talk about that & amend it.
