Islam vs Charles was a competitive fight. We've convinced ourselves it wasn't.

Rektkid said:
Are you retarded or something? The rematch against Volk only happened because Charles pulled out.
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Islam just had to fight a 145'er bc of Charles getting injured?
 
It wasn't a rout, like there were enough positives that I don't think a rematch would be pointless, but Islam controlled when the grappling occurred, scored his takedowns pretty quickly, neutralised his guard, did the most damage in the stand up and locked in a sub super quick. It was a relatively one sided fight where Islam did better in every position
 
Islam is just a nightmare matchup for Olivera. Olivera needs that aggressive opponent to take advantage of their mistakes. Islam never over commits like Olivera's previous opponents. Then on the ground Olivera just couldn't lock in any submissions, Islam's defense there is too good. I get that Olivera has the best resume at LW right now, but I don't see why this rematch has been pushed so hard. Arman or Gaethje would make better matchups for Islam.
 
TheMMAnalyst said:
I guess we are getting stuck in semantics now when discussing this fight, so I will give my two cents - this was in no way a "competitive" fight.

What does it mean to be "competitive"? By definition - as good as or better than others of a comparable nature.

How was Olivera "competitive" (i.e. as good as or better) with Islam when he literally lost the fight in every single area that it took place? You compare it to Jones/Shogun by saying that domination only matters when "doing a lot of damage," which is a completely relative misnomer (did Islam hurt Charles in the first 10 seconds? Did he drop him and finish him within 2 rounds? Sounds like a fair amount of damage to me). I'd say that Jones/Shogun was a far greater domination relative to scale because of the amount of damage Jones made Shogun eat before finishing him, but this fight is in the relative definition of the word "domination" far more so than "competitive."

Stand-Up = Islam rocked Oliviera early for coming in reckless and basically Charles was second-guessing himself at how to effectively close distance from that point forward. He doesn't have great defense at all, he stays upright and moves in straight lines with his chin-up, but he's long and fast with a variety of techniques (punches/kicks/knees/flying attacks) so he can keep fighters backing up and afraid to engage. Once Islam shut that down by being willing to step into the pocket with counters it made Charles really hesitant to blitz, he didn't know when to do it or how Islam would react when he did it, which left him exposed. The fight started with him getting countered for a reckless pocket blitz and it ended with him getting countered for a reckless pocket blitz. He literally could not adapt to Islam's answers to his style (which was to either stifle his blitzes with clinch and/or takedowns or look to land power counters).

Clinch = Islam easily controlled Oliviera in the clinch when they did go there in the first round. His clinch strikes were more effective (better/cleaner knees), and he actually used Charles instinctive response to throw knees back to counter judo-throw him. Once Charles was able to eventually scramble up afterwords you could tell he did not want to get stuck in the clinch with Islam, he knew that he was giving up too much strength in those positions and couldn't get a Thai-clinch or anything to land knees without offering up a counter-takedown. In the second round they ended up in the clinch and Charles expended a ton of energy to work to get out of that position, so while that exchange seemed "even" one guy drained his energy levels way more than the other (and wanted out of that position in the first place).

Grappling = Islam pretty easily handled this aspect of the fight, though Charles show-cased that early in fights if he isn't heavily damaged or gassed his defensive groundwork is still pretty top-notch. However, he got taken down and controlled pretty easily, Islam played it safe early and didn't try to force GnP or a pass, just tired him out. Charles landed a really solid up-kick when Islam was stacking at one point, but Islam ended up landing a really solid elbow to close out the round. When Charles was on his back he was never actually close to the triangle/armbar but he was good at using it to create a scramble and get-up.

Realistically by the middle of round 2 he had already lost in every phase of the fight - he got out-struck and let Islam control the distance, he got out-clinched and thrown, and he got out-grappled (though he did good defensive work defense does not equal offense and if they kept fighting in those positions later as the fight went on I bet Oliviera would start to break down).

Having just re-watched it I'd say the first 90 seconds of round 2 are the most "competitive" of the fight - Charles is able to fight effectively in the clinch and at least match Islam, lands some good clinch strikes (elbow/knee), break out of the clinch, etc. However, it looks like he used a ton of energy to start the round, he was going super-hard in the clinch to get out, he tried to take Islam down and got stuck there and did not want to be there.

After he gets out he tries to get the middle-distance but he looks slow and uncertain, he gets countered almost at will and when he throws kicks and misses his feet almost stumble when he tries to reset; it's halfway into round 2 at LW in a relatively low-paced fight and dude is looking partially gassed, that's not a good sign of "competitiveness" to me. He lets Islam control the center of the cage and walk him down with combos and kicks for like a minute before he tries his ill-fated flying knee with no set-up from outside of range.

To me this fight show-cased the limitations of Oliviera's style - against someone like Islam with Charles skillset he needed to fight like an out-fighter (at least early), but he's incapable of fighting like that because he ultimately always wants to overwhelm opponents with dynamic offensive. He's not content to sit at range and probe for openings with jabs and front kicks, looking to feint and bait a reaction, he just wants to push into mid-range no matter the consequence. Which works against guys that aren't as tall/long (afraid of your kicks/knees so need to respect the kicking distance) and/or guys that don't have dynamic reactive grappling games (willing to close distance when you close distance to initiate clinch/takedowns).

That's the main reason I wasn't sold on a rematch - when has Oliviera ever shown the ability to adapt his style? He's gotten a lot tougher in being able to eat damage or survive bad spots and he's dramatically improved his offense to be more powerful and dynamic, but at his core he's still the same fighter - a dynamic offensive buzzsaw that can chew you up in the mid-range or in grappling scrambles, but highly-suspect defense and a highly inflexible approach to fighting.
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I appreciate the long and thought out reply. But I can't really debate this with you, we see this fight in a very different way. It just wouldn't go anywhere.
 
HHJ said:
He threw the knee because he felt this fight slipping away. This shit wasnt workin
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Well, no, not quite. He threw the knee because it was the first time in the fight he had Islam backing up and he was opening up with his striking. He was pressuring and felt comfortable to throw that strike.
 
This fight was not a one sided beatdown but Islam was clearly winning on the feet and on the ground until Oliveria tapped out. It was decisive enough most fans want to see someone other than Oliveria fight Islam next. I don’t see anywhere Oliveria has the advantage and I doubt he has much confidence in beating or even fighting Islam again.
 
checktheknuckles said:
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Islam just had to fight a 145'er bc of Charles getting injured?
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Are you seriously this dumb? UFC booked the fight, not Islam. We did say Islam was in a no-win situation because of people like you. If he didn't take the fight, he would have been accused of ducking Volk. He won and here we are, people like you trying to discredit him.
 
Tweak896 said:
Islam is just a nightmare matchup for Olivera. Olivera needs that aggressive opponent to take advantage of their mistakes. Islam never over commits like Olivera's previous opponents. Then on the ground Olivera just couldn't lock in any submissions, Islam's defense there is too good. I get that Olivera has the best resume at LW right now, but I don't see why this rematch has been pushed so hard. Arman or Gaethje would make better matchups for Islam.
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I think a lot of Charles title run ended up being about him pushing the pace, forcing opponents who wanted to try and pick him apart into striking wars in which he was at a big advantage because he could recover from getting hurt on the ground. We saw the difference here were first he couldn't hustle Islam as much for fear of being taken down and then when he was hurt he didnt get the chance to recover on the ground.

As said I think he threw the knee because he felt he needed to land something big like that to win.
 
moreorless87 said:
I think a lot of Charles title run ended up being about him pushing the pace, forcing opponents who wanted to try and pick him apart into striking wars in which he was at a big advantage because he could recover from getting hurt on the ground. We saw the difference here were first he couldn't hustle Islam as much for fear of being taken down and then when he was hurt he didnt get the chance to recover on the ground.

As said I think he threw the knee because he felt he needed to land something big like that to win.
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Absolutely. To me it looked like his offense was completely ineffective and he tried every trick he could to get something going, but couldn't get it started. Olivera has a chance to get a hail mary KO, but it seems like Islam is just too measured for him.
 
moreorless87 said:
I think a lot of Charles title run ended up being about him pushing the pace, forcing opponents who wanted to try and pick him apart into striking wars in which he was at a big advantage because he could recover from getting hurt on the ground. We saw the difference here were first he couldn't hustle Islam as much for fear of being taken down and then when he was hurt he didnt get the chance to recover on the ground.

As said I think he threw the knee because he felt he needed to land something big like that to win.
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I don't think this fight was much different than Chandler. I always hear people bringing it up that Charles past opponents were afraid to go to the ground after they hurt him. But Chandler did just that, he knocked him down and the pursued him in his guard going for the finish with GNP for like 3 mins.

And he threw the knee because he was finally comfortable and pressuring Islam. It was the first time in the fight he had him going backwards and he was opening up with his standup. Islam threw what he had at Charles in the first round n half, the TD didn't work in round 2, Islam started moving backwards and Charles was opening up and getting comfortable.
 
Is there some kind of harry potter thing going on where there's a round 1.5 that only ts has watched and it was competitive? Or are we really pushing the definition of competitive?
 
Rektkid said:
Are you seriously this dumb? UFC booked the fight, not Islam. We did say Islam was in a no-win situation because of people like you. If he didn't take the fight, he would have been accused of ducking Volk. He won and here we are, people like you trying to discredit him.
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No one is going to accuse a 155 champ of ducking by declining a fight against a 145'er who is too scared to move up to LW. Islam is trying to fight anyone but the 155 challengers. Now that is how you get called a duck.
 
JKS said:
Well, no, not quite. He threw the knee because it was the first time in the fight he had Islam backing up and he was opening up with his striking. He was pressuring and felt comfortable to throw that strike.
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Didn't look comfortable
 
HHJ said:
Didn't look comfortable
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Oh!!! He was very comfortable, all you gotta do is watch the video brother, it's on the first page, opening post ;)

Watch from 9:20 onward, Charles is trowing combinations, bouncing light on his feet and pressuring ready to attack
 
FrappeDuRocma said:
You must be clinically retarded, I'm sorry for your entourage and parents, it must be hard.
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Yeah thats why Islam is fighting everyone but the contenders at LW. Must be nice fighting fw's who would never be a top 10 fighter at LW if they ever moved up. Or wanting to get insta title shots at WW. Too scared of Charles. Knows how the story will play out like DC/Stipe and Leon/Usman. Or islam gonna run away and retire like Khabib without defending?
 
JKS said:
I don't think this fight was much different than Chandler. I always hear people bringing it up that Charles past opponents were afraid to go to the ground after they hurt him. But Chandler did just that, he knocked him down and the pursued him in his guard going for the finish with GNP for like 3 mins.

And he threw the knee because he was finally comfortable and pressuring Islam. It was the first time in the fight he had him going backwards and he was opening up with his standup. Islam threw what he had at Charles in the first round n half, the TD didn't work in round 2, Islam started moving backwards and Charles was opening up and getting comfortable.
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After he first knocked him down I do think he tried to avoid engaging too much, tried to finish him with GnP from a standing position and then when he did go down to follow up Charles was able to tie him up in guard.
 
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