Someone Explain This So Called Housing Crisis?

In Canada if you own an actual detached house, you are considered the bad guy or extremely rich now
Everyone is expected to live in tiny little boxes stacked on top of each other or have a million roommates
It’s fucked out here now
I just purchased a tiny studio apartment, my first home… guess how much I paid lol (makes me sick)
But I got mine now so F y’all !, guess I’ll vote for Justin lol (jokes)
Canada is bringing in 1million+ new ppl every year and we build like 0 new affordable housing
Then when things are slow or tight, all the investors and speculators just sit on the properties until the price rises again
There are Farmers out here that make more money renting out parts of their land
Then they do farming on it lol
Canada is dying
lol @ that last bit.

No one is considered a bad guy for owning a home; don't be ridiculous. But yeah, supply is obviously not keeping up with demand. I think that's starting to change though. All this doom and gloom strikes me as really silly. Times are tough but they'll get better, just like in the past. Global disasters tend to be expensive and painful for everyone and we're still paying for it. But it won't be forever.
 
Moving to West Virginia might not be an attractive solution. I'd agree with that. But if we're talking about a housing shortage, we can't simply ignore that moving to West Virginia is a viable solution to not finding a house. It might fail every other criteria but not that one.
It's not a policy solution, though. It's people finding a way to survive despite bad policy.
Of course there are places where all housing is relatively expensive. But that's not a "shortage" of housing. That's the component I keep highlighting. That housing is expensive because it's in desirable areas.

You could relax barriers to construction. And if would result in more construction. We agree up to that point. Where my opinion differs is on what happens when you relax those barriers. You're saying that developers would build more properties and that would result in cheaper prices. My opinion says that developers would build towards the upper end of what the market could sustain. And based on the amount of people who want to live in those areas, there's no reason to lower the prices.
But the modalities of construction aren't what determine prices, as I'm sure you know. Plus, if you have luxury high rises go up, that means people don't pay $2M for a small house (as is actually the case in some high-value metro areas). Further, even if it were true that there's an endless supply of people willing and able to pay seven figures for apartments in some cities, that would mean that those cities have infinite wealth-generating capacity, which you'd think we'd want to take advantage of.
Basic supply and demand says that you increase supply and eventually the equilibrium price comes down. But the problem with real estate is that you guys assume that that developers will simply increase the raw supply to such a degree that they hit a surplus which will force prices down. That's incorrect because it's not how real estate developers in these areas operate. It's better to think about real estate like a luxury good and a necessity, rather than as an easily substituted good.
Any individual developer would like their development to be the only one, but if supply isn't restricted by the gov't, that wouldn't happen. Again, we can see this. Austin has a lot of the characteristics you'd expect of a place with high and rising housing costs, but because they're building more, it's neither of those things. Tokyo is another example.
Since housing is a necessity, demand will always be high. But because location is a luxury, people will always be willing to pay more for it. The same with space, especially within a city. So people will overpay for location and they will overpay for location. Developers understand this. They will build to that demand, not to the idea that they'll simply increase the raw supply to such a degree that it lowers prices.
I don't think we can expect SF housing to fall to Detroit or West Virginia levels, but it doesn't have to be as high as it is. That's a result of gov't policy in addition to market forces.
 
It's not a policy solution, though. It's people finding a way to survive despite bad policy.
It's not a policy solution. I think the proposed policy solutions won't have the desired results.
But the modalities of construction aren't what determine prices, as I'm sure you know. Plus, if you have luxury high rises go up, that means people don't pay $2M for a small house (as is actually the case in some high-value metro areas). Further, even if it were true that there's an endless supply of people willing and able to pay seven figures for apartments in some cities, that would mean that those cities have infinite wealth-generating capacity, which you'd think we'd want to take advantage of.
The problem here is that the developers will buy the small house, tear it down and replace it with luxury apartments. So, yes, people won't be paying $2M for a small house. They'll be paying $1 million for luxury apartments. This doesn't solve your housing crisis problem because the people who can afford the $2 million house are the same people who can afford the $1 million apartment. Neither of which meets the needs of the people in the $300k-$700k price range -- the people who are experiencing the shortage of available housing.

Maybe you should tell me which housing population you're trying to help here?
Any individual developer would like their development to be the only one, but if supply isn't restricted by the gov't, that wouldn't happen. Again, we can see this. Austin has a lot of the characteristics you'd expect of a place with high and rising housing costs, but because they're building more, it's neither of those things. Tokyo is another example.

Austin's real estate prices have been climbing steadily for the last 10 years. It's only the recent interest hikes that have slowed that climb.

Austin-Home-Price-Growth.jpg


That's not a graph that says prices are coming down. I'm not commenting on Tokyo because we're discussing the US housing crisis.
I don't think we can expect SF housing to fall to Detroit or West Virginia levels, but it doesn't have to be as high as it is. That's a result of gov't policy in addition to market forces.

As I said in my earlier response to you. Affordable housing is financially unfeasible without government subsidies. So, we're discussing high end real estate for upper middle class. And if those people were willing to sustain a longer commute, there's plenty of housing that they could afford.

I want to nail down what your specific disagreement is. Which home buying demographic are you discussing in our exchange? And what type of desired property types are you saying that they're looking for?

Because I didn't assume we were talking about the million dollar apartment class and if we are, we should be upfront about that.
 
Housing has gotten way more unaffordable since we started banning construction, and homelessness has risen. America used to be a much poorer country, but people had less trouble finding a place to live (more trouble paying for food, clothes and other necessities). The failure in housing is self-imposed rather than a market thing.

But we haven't banned construction. We've banned the least profitable types of construction. There are developments popping up all the time, they're just unaffordable and further away from City centers. And speaking of, I'm not sure when these salad days of Americans not having a hard time finding housing were, urban centers have always had homelessness issues because that's where the biggest wealth inequality was, even in the late 1800's. Are we talking about Company Towns? I'd not count nearly literal slavery as being housing secure. During the Depression masses of Americans were forced from homes. In the 50's suburban development exploded and we had the "white flight" phenomenon, which allowed for further disinvestment in urban development (mixed housing), which then allowed for gentrification, which led to long time urban residents being priced out. We are seeing that now still, but that exacerbated homelessness in major cities all over the US, for decades, and then we had the 2008 crisis. Right now the NAR are being sued over purposely inflating costs for commissions, and using algorithms to do so. Its difficult to think of one period where this market was ever particularly stable.

Also on a semi-relevant sidenote, Strong Towns just dropped an excellent video on displacement for Highways:

 
Lack of affordable housing because the builders can’t make as much of a profit of smaller dwellings.

Corporations seizing near zero interest rates and caused a rush to buy.

Paying over asking caused everyone’s taxes and insurance to go up the next calendar year.

Obama?
 
It's not a policy solution. I think the proposed policy solutions won't have the desired results.

The problem here is that the developers will buy the small house, tear it down and replace it with luxury apartments. So, yes, people won't be paying $2M for a small house. They'll be paying $1 million for luxury apartments. This doesn't solve your housing crisis problem because the people who can afford the $2 million house are the same people who can afford the $1 million apartment. Neither of which meets the needs of the people in the $300k-$700k price range -- the people who are experiencing the shortage of available housing.

Maybe you should tell me which housing population you're trying to help here?


Austin's real estate prices have been climbing steadily for the last 10 years. It's only the recent interest hikes that have slowed that climb.

Austin-Home-Price-Growth.jpg


That's not a graph that says prices are coming down. I'm not commenting on Tokyo because we're discussing the US housing crisis.


As I said in my earlier response to you. Affordable housing is financially unfeasible without government subsidies. So, we're discussing high end real estate for upper middle class. And if those people were willing to sustain a longer commute, there's plenty of housing that they could afford.

I want to nail down what your specific disagreement is. Which home buying demographic are you discussing in our exchange? And what type of desired property types are you saying that they're looking for?

Because I didn't assume we were talking about the million dollar apartment class and if we are, we should be upfront about that.

Yes, the financial precariousness of affordable housing is the market failure I mentioned. When it's so expensive to build something that the people its intended for cannot afford it, that is textbook market failure. And in times past when confronted with that market failure, we very correctly turned to collective funding. I've posted this in other threads but there are grocery stores in small towns experiencing this. Towns end up purchasing grocery stores collectively because bigger corporations dont see enough profit in providing the community food, and residents cannot afford to drive 20+ miles to buy groceries.

It's also just as absurd that this wealthy of a Country has food deserts, but here we are. Market failure.
 
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The problem here is that the developers will buy the small house, tear it down and replace it with luxury apartments.
Why? It sounds like your assumption is economic warfare against the public, while my assumption is that markets drive rational behavior.

So, yes, people won't be paying $2M for a small house. They'll be paying $1 million for luxury apartments. This doesn't solve your housing crisis problem because the people who can afford the $2 million house are the same people who can afford the $1 million apartment.
Your position is that everyone who can afford $1M to live can also afford $2M? Surely that can't be right.

Neither of which meets the needs of the people in the $300k-$700k price range -- the people who are experiencing the shortage of available housing.

Maybe you should tell me which housing population you're trying to help here?
The goal of improving housing policy is to reduce housing-adjusted poverty (and generally raise living standards) and homelessness, and encourage more economic growth.
Austin's real estate prices have been climbing steadily for the last 10 years. It's only the recent interest hikes that have slowed that climb.
We're talking about the recent changes. There was a big influx of high-paying jobs, which by the logic of NIMBYs should have driven housing costs up, but they've actually come down (your graph cuts off the relevant time period).
That's not a graph that says prices are coming down. I'm not commenting on Tokyo because we're discussing the US housing crisis.
Do you think market logic is bound by geography?
As I said in my earlier response to you. Affordable housing is financially unfeasible without government subsidies.
"Affordable" is not a binary category. If we stop using policy to artificially drive housing costs up, they will come down. It's really odd to me that this isn't self-evident.

I want to nail down what your specific disagreement is. Which home buying demographic are you discussing in our exchange? And what type of desired property types are you saying that they're looking for?
All. I'd really want to know what the justification for imposing scarcity is, actually.
 
Lack of affordable housing because the builders can’t make as much of a profit of smaller dwellings.

Corporations seizing near zero interest rates and caused a rush to buy.

Paying over asking caused everyone’s taxes and insurance to go up the next calendar year.

Obama?

Obama certainly didn't help, and this is a very valid criticism of his Presidency. He was very tight with bankers who essentially engineered the Housing crisis in 2008. I dont think maliciously, I think he honestly believed they were well-intentioned. Faith in the system:

 
But we haven't banned construction.
In many places, we effectively have.

We've banned the least profitable types of construction. There are developments popping up all the time, they're just unaffordable and further away from City centers.
And I fundamentally disagree with the notion that only rich people should be able to live in cities.
And speaking of, I'm not sure when these salad days of Americans not having a hard time finding housing were, urban centers have always had homelessness issues because that's where the biggest wealth inequality was, even in the late 1800's.
It's not a binary issue.

The wiki page on the SF Bay Area has a good run-down:

 
I don't think it's rational to expect logistical issues to vanish after an arbitrary wealth value has been reached.

I don't think its rational to expect logistical issues to persist in the same manner decade after decade when a significant wealth value has been reached. Disinvestment is a problem, gentrification is a problem, they're problems that don't need to exist on the level that they do save to line the pockets of those that profit from them.
 
I don't think its rational to expect logistical issues to persist in the same manner decade after decade when a significant wealth value has been reached. Disinvestment is a problem, gentrification is a problem, they're problems that don't need to exist on the level that they do save to line the pockets of those that profit from them.
But it is rational to expect that, given we haven't reached the singularity yet. There are many problems, many suggested solutions, and none of them cost-free.
 
But it is rational to expect that, given we haven't reached the singularity yet. There are many problems, many suggested solutions, and none of them cost-free.

I dont think the cost is the source of why the problems haven't been addressed in competent manners.
 
I dont think the cost is the source of why the problems haven't been addressed in competent manners.
Adding "the source" and "competent" as qualifiers skews it into an area of being impossible to satisfy realistically. Cost of solutions do not need to be the source of it, just an incredibly relevant factor. What goes into "competent" is so nebulously controlled by you it allows for basically endless goalpost-shifting. If you want to be unhappy, you're going to find a way.
 
Why? It sounds like your assumption is economic warfare against the public, while my assumption is that markets drive rational behavior.

Rational behavior. Tear down a $2 million dollar house and replace it multiple million dollar apartments. Same plot of land, larger return. That's how real estate works. It's completely irrational to assume that developers will be unaware of the greater return if they choose that alternative. It's not economic warfare against the public. That's a silly perspective. The developers are operating within the private sector and their objective is maximum return for themselves by selling to the private sector. They have zero interest in losing money to benefit the public good. They're not in the housing welfare business. Losing money they don't have to lose is irrational behavior.
Your position is that everyone who can afford $1M to live can also afford $2M? Surely that can't be right.
My statement was that anyone who can afford the $2 million house can afford the $1 million apartment (you got it backwards). And, yes, that's right. Anyone who can afford $2 million for the house can afford $1 million for the apartment.
The goal of improving housing policy is to reduce housing-adjusted poverty (and generally raise living standards) and homelessness, and encourage more economic growth.
Yes but that is not the goal of real estate developers. You repeatedly conflate the two. You might use government to reduce zoning restrictions but, unless government is building the homes, it will be private sector developers who decide what gets built and at what price point. And, as rational actors, they will build what generates the greatest return for themselves.
We're talking about the recent changes. There was a big influx of high-paying jobs, which by the logic of NIMBYs should have driven housing costs up, but they've actually come down (your graph cuts off the relevant time period).
You can pull the data yourself. I just posted the most visibly engaging graph. Housing prices didn't pull back until inflation hit the interest rates.
Do you think market logic is bound by geography?
No, but I know that real estate pressures are partially driven by cultural components so it makes little sense to introduce a community in Japan when the United States is what we're talking about and there are more than enough cities and towns to use for your examples.
"Affordable" is not a binary category. If we stop using policy to artificially drive housing costs up, they will come down. It's really odd to me that this isn't self-evident.
For someone who knows more about economics than most, your position here has a real blind spot. Probably because you don't really understand what drives the developers in the market. You seem to think that artificial restraints on housing supply only restrict the creation of affordable housing. Completely blind to the possibility that the restraints also restrict the creation of more high end housing. :eek:

Additionally, for prices to come down, supply must exceed demand. But there's absolutely nothing out there that suggests that the demand for high price housing has topped out or even remotely come close to exceeding the demand for such housing.


All. I'd really want to know what the justification for imposing scarcity is, actually.

But there isn't scarcity for "all". Weird. The only scarcity that exists in in "affordable" housing. And you seem to have no idea how developers work. Or an understanding that the type of housing you're asking for is economically unfeasible to construct.

I can't waste more time on this. I represent builders and developers from buyers flipping single family houses, converting them into duplexes or building multimillion dollar projects from the ground up. I own a real estate title company and I see what the developers are actually acquiring and what they intend to do with it. I negotiate the contracts and argue in front of the zoning boards, the license and inspection boards, etc. regularly. I get to sit in on the public policy meetings that push for affordable housing in my community (quietly and in the back of the room). And I get to sit in with the real estate community that genuinely lobbies for more affordable housing with real lobbyists, not just community organizers.

With all due respect, you don't understand this industry and surface level "If you just remove government, the private sector will build it" platitudes make that overwhelmingly clear. Every place understands that simply removing government restrictions on building will not result in more affordable housing. Every conversation is about how to incentivize the private sector to sink money into something that makes zero economic sense. But since you seem to think you know more than the people who are literally spending millions of their own dollars trying to accomplish the same goal, I'll leave you to it.
 
Yes, the financial precariousness of affordable housing is the market failure I mentioned. When it's so expensive to build something that the people its intended for cannot afford it, that is textbook market failure. And in times past when confronted with that market failure, we very correctly turned to collective funding. I've posted this in other threads but there are grocery stores in small towns experiencing this. Towns end up purchasing grocery stores collectively because bigger corporations dont see enough profit in providing the community food, and residents cannot afford to drive 20+ miles to buy groceries.

It's also just as absurd that this wealthy of a Country has food deserts, but here we are. Market failure.
I wouldn't outright call it a market failure, although it is a societal one.

This is why social welfare programs are an important part of every developed nation. People have to understand that the private sector is not motivated by the public good and housing is no exception to this reality.

Which is the real problem with some people in this thread, they seem to truly believe that real estate developers will use eased zoning and construction regulations to create products for lower income brackets when they still have profitable higher income customers to sell to and housing for low income buyers is an economic loss.

In what world does any seller of a good do that?
 
I wouldn't outright call it a market failure, although it is a societal one.

This is why social welfare programs are an important part of every developed nation. People have to understand that the private sector is not motivated by the public good and housing is no exception to this reality.

Which is the real problem with some people in this thread, they seem to truly believe that real estate developers will use eased zoning and construction regulations to create products for lower income brackets when they still have profitable higher income customers to sell to and housing for low income buyers is an economic loss.

In what world does any seller of a good do that?

Market failure essentially is societal failure:

"Market failure is the economic situation defined by an inefficient distribution of goods and services in the free market. In market failure, the individual incentives for rational behavior do not lead to rational outcomes for the group."
 
In Canada if you own an actual detached house, you are considered the bad guy or extremely rich now
You are considered a "bad guy" if you own a detached house and actively campaign to block new housing developments for others. IMO that is a crappy thing to do even though I understand the emotional reasons why people do that.
 
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Rational behavior. Tear down a $2 million dollar house and replace it multiple million dollar apartments. Same plot of land, larger return. That's how real estate works. It's completely irrational to assume that developers will be unaware of the greater return if they choose that alternative. It's not economic warfare against the public. That's a silly perspective. The developers are operating within the private sector and their objective is maximum return for themselves by selling to the private sector. They have zero interest in losing money to benefit the public good. They're not in the housing welfare business. Losing money they don't have to lose is irrational behavior.
You're proving our point with this example and you can't even see that.

Replacing one $2 million dollar unit with multiple $1 million ones is making housing 50% more affordable on that plot of land and boosting supply while also turning a profit for the developer. Sure its not "affordable" or "low income" housing in the way that a progressive person might imagine but JVS and I aren't arguing from that perspective, in fact neither of us originally invoked either of those terms IIRC.
I can't waste more time on this. I represent builders and developers from buyers flipping single family houses, converting them into duplexes or building multimillion dollar projects from the ground up. I own a real estate title company and I see what the developers are actually acquiring and what they intend to do with it. I negotiate the contracts and argue in front of the zoning boards, the license and inspection boards, etc. regularly. I get to sit in on the public policy meetings that push for affordable housing in my community (quietly and in the back of the room). And I get to sit in with the real estate community that genuinely lobbies for more affordable housing with real lobbyists, not just community organizers.
This is exactly the scenario I mentioned earlier and which you acted incredulous about and yet here you are admitting you've represented people who've done just that.
Allowing these things is also a good way for homeowners to increase their property values by adding units to their property. Instead of simply sitting on a SFH and waiting for it to appreciate one could renovate it into a duplex and add an ADU in the backyard which triples the number of units on the lot making it more valuable to rent or sell.
 
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Market failure essentially is societal failure:

"Market failure is the economic situation defined by an inefficient distribution of goods and services in the free market. In market failure, the individual incentives for rational behavior do not lead to rational outcomes for the group."
My only disagreement with calling it a market failure is that I don't think this is an inefficient distribution of goods. I think it's both efficient and a rational outcome.

People with more means will outbid people with less means for prime real estate. That's a rational outcome. And as I said in other posts, the biggest complaint comes from people who want to buy affordable housing close to an urban center rather than buy affordable housing with a longer commute. I understand the complaint but it's a byproduct of inefficient distribution of goods, it's a byproduct of people not wanting the goods that are available to them.

Society might not approve of this outcome but it's not inefficient and it's definitely a rational outcome. The reason we have welfare programs is because efficient markets with rational outcomes generally don't work in favor of the poor. Just because the poor are losing out doesn't mean we have a market failure. Rational government and rational markets can be at odds with each other.
 
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