Pro Wrestling History Thread

[BrooklynBomber]

Danny, it has chapters on Ed Lewis, Danny Hodge, the Wigan guys, Verne Gagne, among others.

It helped me realize just how popular Verne was in the 50s, because of Kohler's DuMont Chicago wrestling show. Verne was the lead babyface for Kohler, and because of DuMont's wrestling saturation across the nation, Verne was booked nation-wide through Kohler's office. Gagne was the US champion, and he actually toured with the title and defended it in different territories, just like Thesz was doing with the NWA World title.

Verne only charged 10% of the gate for his fees, so he undercut the NWA champion who charged 10% for himself, 3% for Ed Lewis, and another percentage for Sam Muchnick (the NWA president).

Verne was a bargain in comparison! He was in line to be the next NWA heavyweight champ, but because he was controlled by Kohler, the NWA didn't want Verne to essentially have Kohler control the title. Gagne became very frustrated by this and created the AWA in 1960, with him as champion.

In fairness to Verne he didn't actually start off as AWA champion when the promotion began. Pat O'Connor who was NWA champion was actually recognized by the AWA as world champion and was given 90 days to defend the title against Verne or he would be stripped of the title. O'Connor never wrestled Verne, the title was stripped, awarded to Verne.

 

[Big Burly]

True. I left that part out.

The reality of it was Verne was making the AWA, and he was going to be champ, whether he beat O'Connor for it or not.

Since the NWA wasn't going to make Verne their champ, he got his own belt.

Hell, Verne SHOULD have had a run with the NWA World title. He was more popular at the box-office than Thesz, and he could handle himself if someone wanted to shoot on him (also like Thesz). He would have made a better champ than Dick Hutton, at least at the box office.

Hell, the NWA wound up in a bad situation with Buddy Rogers being controlled by McMahon and Mondt in NY, which is the same shit they were afraid of with Verne and Kohler. Yet, they gave the belt to Rogers anyway (at the ass-end of his career), and had their fears realized. They turned to Thesz then to get the belt from Rogers, which gave McMahon and Mondt the impetus to create their own world title.

 

[Big Burly]

As interesting as the in-ring content has been over the years in pro wrestling, with a the shoots and double-crosses, the actual politics behind the scenes may be even more fascinating.

Look at all of the groups that tried to control pro wrestling in the 20s and 30s. The group membership on each side shifted and changed a lot. Guys jumped from one side to the other, and back again sometimes.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

I think without the AWA the WWWF maybe doesn't step out as an entity independant of the NWA. It was a huge thing when Verne and Wally Karbo broke off from the NWA and it probably served as a big wake up call to Vince and Mondt as Vince happened to be very good friends with Karbo and got on well with Verne.

 

[Big Burly]

There are definite ties there, BB. The AWA tested the waters, didn't drown, and then the WWWF was born.

 

[DannyBoy1985]

Danny, it has chapters on Ed Lewis, Danny Hodge, the Wigan guys, Verne Gagne, among others.

It helped me realize just how popular Verne was in the 50s, because of Kohler's DuMont Chicago wrestling show. Verne was the lead babyface for Kohler, and because of DuMont's wrestling saturation across the nation, Verne was booked nation-wide through Kohler's office. Gagne was the US champion, and he actually toured with the title and defended it in different territories, just like Thesz was doing with the NWA World title.

Verne only charged 10% of the gate for his fees, so he undercut the NWA champion who charged 10% for himself, 3% for Ed Lewis, and another percentage for Sam Muchnick (the NWA president).

Verne was a bargain in comparison! He was in line to be the next NWA heavyweight champ, but because he was controlled by Kohler, the NWA didn't want Verne to essentially have Kohler control the title. Gagne became very frustrated by this and created the AWA in 1960, with him as champion.

I have also read a book called "Catch Wrestling: A Wild and Wooly Look at the Early Days of Professional Wrestling" by Mark Hewitt.

It is a great read as well. Lots of info on John Pesek.

It is a fairly short book, while the "Shooters" book is quite long.

They don't cover all the same stuff, so both are worth getting.

What about guys like Ray Steele, Dick Shikat, Henri Deglane, Ed Don George, Hans Steinke, Frank Wolf, John Olin, Marin Plestina & Clarence Eklund? I'm interested regardless, but there's plenty out there that's been written on Lewis, Hodge, Gagne and such, while there's not as much or little on those guys.

 

[DannyBoy1985]

True. I left that part out.

The reality of it was Verne was making the AWA, and he was going to be champ, whether he beat O'Connor for it or not.

Since the NWA wasn't going to make Verne their champ, he got his own belt.

Hell, Verne SHOULD have had a run with the NWA World title. He was more popular at the box-office than Thesz, and he could handle himself if someone wanted to shoot on him (also like Thesz). He would have made a better champ than Dick Hutton, at least at the box office.

Hell, the NWA wound up in a bad situation with Buddy Rogers being controlled by McMahon and Mondt in NY, which is the same shit they were afraid of with Verne and Kohler. Yet, they gave the belt to Rogers anyway (at the ass-end of his career), and had their fears realized. They turned to Thesz then to get the belt from Rogers, which gave McMahon and Mondt the impetus to create their own world title.

I agree Verne should've had a run with the NWA World HW title and it's a shame he didn't. And yeah, once Verne created the AWA World HW title, he was definitely gonna be the champion but he went about doing it the right way by recognizing NWA champion Pat O'Connor as the 1st AWA champion and then being awarded the title when O'Connor didn't defend it against him in 90 days. It made it look more legit that way. I don't know about Gagne being a bigger draw than Thesz though. Maybe at different points, but overall in that time period (the 50's), according to Matt Farmer's research, Thesz was the 2nd biggest draw of the decade (after Antonino Rocca), while Gagne tied for 8th with Edouard Carpentier.

On that note, you make a good point about the NWA eventually putting the title on Buddy Rogers and pretty much ending up in a situation that they had been weary of if they had put the title on Gagne. I suppose you can chalk it up to Rogers being the top draw in pro wrestling in the early 60's and dominantly so (breaking the old attendance record of Jim Londos and what not), and also happening to be one of the very best workers in the business.

I guess that's wrestling politics for you, lol.

 

[DannyBoy1985]

I think without the AWA the WWWF maybe doesn't step out as an entity independant of the NWA. It was a huge thing when Verne and Wally Karbo broke off from the NWA and it probably served as a big wake up call to Vince and Mondt as Vince happened to be very good friends with Karbo and got on well with Verne.

Good point. Generally it was a good thing anyways, especially when Karbo & Gagne broke away and formed the AWA. The NWA needed something like the AWA around. And Verne was like generally considered a "friend" of the NWA and would attend their meetings, so ive read.

 

[Its Me Austin]

Didn't the WWWF leave because they wanted the NWA title on Bruno?

 

[Big Burly]

The WWWF was formed because they wanted to monopolize the NWA title, and the other promoters wanted the champ to make it to their territories to bump up business.

Therefore, when Thesz took the belt off of Rogers, Vince Sr knew he wouldn't be able to have the champ all to himself, so he made his own.

It's not like the WWWF was totally enemies with the NWA. The relationship was mostly cordial, and the WWWF almost rejoined the NWA.

 

[DannyBoy1985]

Didn't the WWWF leave because they wanted the NWA title on Bruno?

No, generally the CWC left the NWA in protest to Buddy Rogers having to drop the NWA title to Lou Thesz. Bruno himself could've held the NWA title later on if he had wanted to, but he didn't care to take on the schedule being the NWA champion required.

Edit: Big Burly answered your question before i did.

 

[Big Burly]

Danny:

Steele, Shikat, Deglane, and Ed Don George were mentioned in this book and the Hewitt book as well. Steele, George, and DeGlane in some of their encounters with Ed Lewis. Shikat for shooting on Danno O'Mahoney (IIRC).

The book has covered Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson, Jack Brisco, Eddie Graham, Inoki/Ali, Maeda, UWF, UWFi, Pancrase, and now is into the early UFCs.

I would LOVE to see a good history of the 1920s to the end of the 1930s with emphasis on the control of the world heavyweight title. Steve Yohe has a great history of Ed Lewis' career that covers the majority of it. It can be found on the Lou Thesz forums. I may have to haul my virtual ass over there and re-read it. Again.

 

[DannyBoy1985]

Danny:

Steele, Shikat, Deglane, and Ed Don George were mentioned in this book and the Hewitt book as well. Steele, George, and DeGlane in some of their encounters with Ed Lewis. Shikat for shooting on Danno O'Mahoney (IIRC).

The book has covered Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson, Jack Brisco, Eddie Graham, Inoki/Ali, Maeda, UWF, UWFi, Pancrase, and now is into the early UFCs.

Ok, thanks for the info. I appreciate it.

I would LOVE to see a good history of the 1920s to the end of the 1930s with emphasis on the control of the world heavyweight title. Steve Yohe has a great history of Ed Lewis' career that covers the majority of it. It can be found on the Lou Thesz forums. I may have to haul my virtual ass over there and re-read it. Again.

That'd be cool. Yeah, Steve Yohe has some good, informative bios on there for sure.

 

[Big Burly]

I have heard there was a bio of Jim Londos. I really want to read it, but can't find it anywhere. I have a feeling that it is so rare that it would be exorbitantly expensive.

 

[flowwiththego]

Just to add-- Thesz was never a great draw in the Northeast like Rogers and Bruno. They probably would have still done the split evn if Thesz was a box office hit in New York.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

The WWWF was formed because they wanted to monopolize the NWA title, and the other promoters wanted the champ to make it to their territories to bump up business.

Therefore, when Thesz took the belt off of Rogers, Vince Sr knew he wouldn't be able to have the champ all to himself, so he made his own.

It's not like the WWWF was totally enemies with the NWA. The relationship was mostly cordial, and the WWWF almost rejoined the NWA.

People often forget about the short-lived near merger of the WWWF and NWA in the late 70's. Even Superstar Graham wasn't a strong enough to draw to replicate what Bruno was doing and the WWWF considered rejoining the NWA after they saw Graham sell out everywhere with Dusty Rhodes.

Backlund drew less than Superstar did so in 79 when he had the belt Vince organized for the NWA champion to wrestle at the Garden. That champion was Harley Race who wrestled Backlund twice and defended the NWA title against Dusty. They even tested the waters about a possible co-operative with Verne as they had him wrestle Nikolai Volkoff at the Garden and had Backlund wrestle Bockwinkel in a title vs. title match in Toronto. Eventually they decided to remain independant of any other organizations and some feel it worked out.

 

[flowwiththego]

McMahon "Sr." was back on the board of the NWA by then and voted for Ric Flair in 1981 to be the NWA champ.

 

[BrooklynBomber]

McMahon "Sr." was back on the board of the NWA by then and voted for Ric Flair in 1981 to be the NWA champ.

Yeah Verne was an NWA ally but didn't have a seat on the board whereas Vince was an exception by keeping his seat even as he ran his own promotion.

Its interesting to note that in the late 70's during his first AWA title run certain board members wanted to bring Nick Bockwinkel in to the NWA and make him champion. Fritz Von Erich, Paul Boesch, and Jim Barnett all wanted him to do it so they booked him to defend the belt in their territories.

 

[DannyBoy1985]

How well do you all think Hiro Matsuda would've done as NWA World HW Champion if Cowboy Luttrell & Eddie Graham had got their way with that?

 

[BrooklynBomber]

How well do you all think Hiro Matsuda would've done as NWA World HW Champion if Cowboy Luttrell & Eddie Graham had got their way with that?

Well the xenophobic audiences of the south may have killed some gates just out of protest. Granted it was 20 years after Pearl Harbor but you still had heels like Fritz and Waldo Von Erich going strong as late as the 70's. I also think that his run as a junior heavyweight might have devalued the title to some because he hadn't become a national star the way Verne did through exposure on Kohler's show and having a run with the U.S. title as well.