Japan needs migrants badly

I think you're underplaying the radical shift that the Meiji era brought about. It wasn't simply that the Japanese adopted foreign models and ideas but they had also changed what it meant to be Japanese.

I don't think they changed the core philosophy of what it means to be Japanese.

It seems to us a radical change, because what happened was comparable to the unification and industrialization of Germany, except that the process was much more rapid. By 1894, Japan already showed its power against the Chinese, even though in the 1860's they were relatively backwards, comparable to a medieval feudal European kingdom in their structure.

But I think it would be fair to say that the essential principles for Germanic peoples remained the same from what they had been centuries ago, and the same could be said for the Japanese. Nationalism was only truly effective in uniting folk that shared a common cultural, philosophical, linguistic tradition. Attempts to unify people who did not share these qualities, usually ended in failure.

For Japan to suddenly turn into modern-day Germany would be a bigger leap of faith. They simply don't share the same sentiments of what WW2 meant for them. Japan still retains the same philosophy towards social structure, while the Germans believed that they needed to rebuild everything from scratch (Stunde Null), including what it means to be German, which means that they've taken active measures to abandon the remnants of the thousands of years of historical, philosophical and cultural development that had brought them to this point.

For Japan to adopt immigration as a policy, would require them to critique their social structure and cut themselves off from their history. I cannot see that happening.
 
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United States is also gigantic and has way more resources than Japan's tiny island. Japan shouldn't the economic power that it is, but with their skills in technology they have managed.

If you took the US population and put them on Japan, it would be a complete nightmare. If you took the Japanese population and put it in US, they would easily be the #1 superpower for a long time.

You mean with our concentrated effort to rebuild their economy following WWII they have managed. That same with S. Korea and the same with West Germany vs. East Germany. The countries and regions that we helped to rebuild thrived so kudos for them but they didn't just "hard work" their way to success without outside intervention.
 
Japan is too small geographically to have a constantly increasing population.
 
You mean with our concentrated effort to rebuild their economy following WWII they have managed. That same with S. Korea and the same with West Germany vs. East Germany. The countries and regions that we helped to rebuild thrived so kudos for them but they didn't just "hard work" their way to success without outside intervention.

They would have in either case, but America correctly deduced that "hard working" their way to success, for Germany and Japan, would've inevitably meant "borrowing" resources from other territories (without any intent of returning a damn thing in exchange to those that they possessed power over). Therefore it was altogether a better idea to establish trade relations with the two, as an entity that both Japan and Germany could respect (if for nothing else than their military might), rather than leave them to fend for themselves.

It is simply impossible to expect the Japanese or the Germans to not remain competitive, the same way that it is impossible to expect the Americans to not be competitive. They will find a way, one way or the other. America's optimal location has benefited them in such a way that they have not necessarily needed to resort to some of the moral lows that Japan and Germany did, in order to establish their dominance over the others.
 
They would have in either case, but America correctly deduced that "hard working" their way to success, for Germany and Japan, would've inevitably meant "borrowing" resources from other territories (without any intent of returning a damn thing in exchange to those that they possessed power over). Therefore it was altogether a better idea to establish trade relations with the two, as an entity that both Japan and Germany could respect (if for nothing else than their military might), rather than leave them to fend for themselves.

It is simply impossible to expect the Japanese or the Germans to not remain competitive, the same way that it is impossible to expect the Americans to not be competitive. They will find a way, one way or the other. America's optimal location has benefited them in such a way that they have not necessarily needed to resort to some of the moral lows that Japan and Germany did, in order to establish their dominance over the others.

I think there's a lot of wishful thinking in the above. East Germany was nowhere near as competitive as West Germany prior to reunification. China took longer than Japan. N. Korea remained a shithole. Most of the rest of Asia is still below average in terms of development.

The biggest difference between those different outcomes is the level of U.S. economic intervention and support.
 
I think there's a lot of wishful thinking in the above. East Germany was nowhere near as competitive as West Germany prior to reunification. China took longer than Japan. N. Korea remained a shithole. Most of the rest of Asia is still below average in terms of development.

The biggest difference between those different outcomes is the level of U.S. economic intervention and support.

East Germany was a Soviet-subjugated Marxist shithole, which was essentially constructed to starve out and emasculate the German population, so that they would no longer represent a threat to Soviet interests. West Germany was only allowed to be what it was, because the Americans, again, correctly deduced that they needed the Germans to remain strong, just not hostile against America or its allies. America wouldn't be what it is without Germany, and vice versa.

Germany and Japan already showed that they could fend for themselves without America's support. It's just that the way in which they went on about it (conquest, brutality), put them in diametric opposition to America's interests, which meant that America needed to assert its dominance over them. Militarily, of course. Take America out of the equation and Germany dominates the European continent, while Japan dominates the Pacific. The same way that America came to dominate, well, America.

Obviously, the Germans and the Japanese cannot build themselves into being America in the tiny pieces of resource-deprived land that they occupy. However, they certainly possessed the necessary will to build themselves into being America, and they still do. America helping them in their quest, enables them to accomplish this task without resorting to their previous means.
 
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East Germany was a Soviet-subjugated Marxist shithole, which was essentially constructed to starve out and emasculate the German population. West Germany was only allowed to be what it was, because the Americans, again, correctly deduced that they needed the Germans to remain strong, just not hostile against America or its allies. America wouldn't be what it is without Germany, and vice versa.

Germany and Japan already showed that they could fend for themselves without America's support. It's just that the way in which they went on about it (conquest, brutality), put them in diametric opposition to America's interests, which meant that America needed to assert its dominance over them. Militarily, of course.

Obviously, the Germans and the Japanese cannot build themselves into being America in the tiny pieces of resource-deprived land that they occupy. However, they certainly possessed the necessary will to build themselves into being America, and they still do. America helping them in their quest, enables them to accomplish this task without resorting to their previous means.

We're going to disagree here because I'm speaking specifically about the post WW2 competitive environment. You seem to believe that following the destruction of their nations and their production capacity that they would have outcompeted all of the other regional powers who weren't similarly devastated. I don't think so.

By the time Germany and Japan rebuilt to basic levels of productivity, most of the resources would have already been allocated between the nations on the winning side. Without the U.S. presence inside their borders they would not have had the steady supply of consumers with the disposable income to buy local products and transfer wealth from service men's paychecks into the local economies. That would have meant competing for export markets against nations with better production capabilities.

The cost of rebuilding would have hamstrung those nations for decades.
 
We're going to disagree here because I'm speaking specifically about the post WW2 competitive environment. You seem to believe that following the destruction of their nations and their production capacity that they would have outcompeted all of the other regional powers who weren't similarly devastated. I don't think so.

By the time Germany and Japan rebuilt to basic levels of productivity, most of the resources would have already been allocated between the nations on the winning side. Without the U.S. presence inside their borders they would not have had the steady supply of consumers with the disposable income to buy local products and transfer wealth from service men's paychecks into the local economies. That would have meant competing for export markets against nations with better production capabilities.

The cost of rebuilding would have hamstrung those nations for decades.

I don't think you take into account what Germany and Japan would've turned into without American guidance. We already saw what Germany built itself into after the devastation and collapse of the first World War, in the span of a decade. And through what means.

The German populations have lost massively before, they have had their civilizations destroyed, ravaged and pillaged by their enemies numerous times throughout history. The entire Germanic tradition, instilled in every generation prior to WW2, revolves around the theme of self-sacrificing, losing courageously and rising from the ashes, to exact revenge, if necessary.

If America did not work to steer Germans away from this path, I do not see why history wouldn't have repeated itself, in the same manner as it had, for as long as the history of Germanic people has been documented, since the times of Roman subjugation (and subsequent fall of Rome at the hands of Germans). The Soviets, with their own brutality, would've enhanced this "revenge mentality" to manifest even further. The Soviets were only ever going to be a temporary phenomenon despite their victory in World War 2, and would've ultimately collapsed, especially without American support.

Economic realities really mean jack-shit concerning this scenario because the Japanese and the Germans would've taken what they required, in whatever way was necessary, without paying a dime back to anyone that they took it from. They are a people of supreme intellect, productivity, not to mention that they possess (or possessed) the will of a conqueror's, as do the Americans. Any hardships encountered only encourage them to work even harder.
 
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I don't think you take into account what Germany and Japan would've turned into without American guidance. We already saw what Germany built itself into after the devastation and collapse of the first World War, in the span of a decade. And through what means.

The German populations have lost massively before, they have had their civilizations destroyed, ravaged and pillaged by their enemies numerous times throughout history. The entire Germanic tradition, instilled in every generation prior to WW2, revolves around the theme of self-sacrificing, losing courageously and rising from the ashes, to exact revenge, if necessary.

If America did not work to steer Germans away from this path, I do not see why history wouldn't have repeated itself, in the same manner as it had, for as long as the history of Germanic people has been documented, since the times of Roman subjugation (and subsequent fall of Rome at the hands of Germans). The Soviets, with their own brutality, would've enhanced this "revenge mentality" to manifest even further. The Soviets were only ever going to be a temporary phenomenon despite their victory in World War 2, and would've ultimately collapsed, especially without American support.

Economic realities really mean jack-shit concerning this scenario because the Japanese and the Germans would've taken what they required, in whatever way was necessary, without paying a dime back to anyone that they took it from. They are a people of supreme intellect, productivity, not to mention that they possess (or possessed) the will of a conqueror's, as do the Americans. Any hardships encountered only encourage them to work even harder.

Following the first World War, Germany's production capacity wasn't destroyed. They were hamstrung by an economic bill to the winning side, not an actual loss of capacity.

Anyway, your statement that economic realities mean jack-shit against some mythical solution just illustrates my point that we're going to disagree. You're operating under "...it just would have happened" logic, all details to the contrary be damned. Yet, you acknowledge and simultaneously disregard to how the German mythos didn't help East Germany rise above the poor policies of the Soviets.
 
Following the first World War, Germany's production capacity wasn't destroyed. They were hamstrung by an economic bill to the winning side, not an actual loss of capacity.

Their production capacity wasn't destroyed by World War 2 either. Severely damaged, for sure, but still a threat to the extent that a plan was made by the Allies to divide Germany into small pieces and destroy its entire production, until America came to its senses and started seeing the USSR as the existential threat that it was, requiring West Germany to stand as the buffer between the democratic world and the socialist regime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

Anyway, your statement that economic realities mean jack-shit against some mythical solution just illustrates my point that we're going to disagree. You're operating under "...it just would have happened" logic, all details to the contrary be damned. Yet, you acknowledge and simultaneously disregard to how the German mythos didn't help East Germany rise above the poor policies of the Soviets.

East Germany did not rise above the Soviets because it did not possess the power to. They were only a country of around 15 million, under a very repressive regime. The Soviets and the DDR system, could've never repressed the entire German population (of 80 million). Any attempt to do that, would've ended in failure.

It is evident in the fact that the moment that their level of repression over the population was reduced by even a tiny bit, the whole system collapsed into a heap. The Berlin wall and Stasi kept them going a lot longer than they should've been.
 
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I know this is a crazy thought, but no one needs immigration.

Your country may experience a short-term economic downturn over the next 20 years, but it will bounce back.

Definitely not worth forcing third world immigrants into your population.

Japan’s short term economic downturn started in 1992.
 
I'm willing to bet there are no studies to back this claim up.

Our friend Seano is constantly whining about how immigrants entering the workforce drive wages down for blue-collar US-born workers. And he's always bringing up his own anecdotes of it happening.

So they enter the labor market with so much force they change the wage system... yet somehow they "don't want to achieve, only receive"

<mma4>
 
just wait a few more years when most of the aging population dies off; japan will correct itself and reach equilibrium. they are technologiclaly advanced, hence dont have the demand for manual labor. they are already at 2.8% unemployment. adding more to their population will only add more to unemployment and be a burden to the economy.

and lol-migrants wont fix japan's problems. if you bring in educated migrants, they will fall into the same grind as their japanese counterparts; work long hours to sustain their standard of living and wont spit out babies. bringing in uneducated migrants will add babies but be more of a drain to japanese society as they suck up resources.
 
Honestly, I get the impression that there are two specific groups of Americans who tend to glorify Japan and ignore the glaring problems in their culture and history.

1. Nerdy guys who like anime and stuff like that (not that there's anything wrong with that)
2. Ethnocentrists and Nationalists who believe Japan's own tendency to stick to their own is some kind of model for creating a perfect society.

The problem is, these people always seem to completely ignore Japan's glaring shortcomings as a nation and as a culture just to celebrate how homogeneous they are (as if that is something, in and of itself, to celebrate).

Does anybody really think the Japanese, the nation that brought us the rape of Nanking and more recently tentacle rape pornography and pornography centered around women looking and sounding like children, are in the position to lecture anybody about rape? Are we really going to pretend that a nation with a recent history as bloody and vicious as Japan is in the position to lecture about peace and stability within a single human lifetime?

No. Japan is not a model for the United States. Neither is Europe. The United States is the model.
How many times are you going to post the same thing ?

Also, this reeks of but but Hitler, but applied to Japan. I don t care about history. Today s people don t carry any burden.
 
if NK goes up in smoke Japan will get her migrants
 
Also, this reeks of but but Hitler, but applied to Japan. I don t care about history. Today s people don t carry any burden.

I don't doubt that. But unfortunately for you, history provides the context for where we are today.
 
How about they force the company's to give them paid time to make babies.

Then there is not reason to import people that want to turn where they are now into the shit hope they came from.
They have all that. People also practice sexual intercourse in Japan, believe it or not. But there's a thing called the pill.
 
I don't get why most countries, including the US, don't copy the Gulf states. Just give people from the third world worker visas, let them work so they get money for their families back home, and they leave. We get workers, and they get money. Everyone wins.

And it's easier to manipulate too. Let's say one year we have higher unemployment. Solution: Take in less migrants to give more Americans jobs. And vice versa.

Just one idea.
The problem is you have to be a bit brutal to enforce such a system since more often than not the migrants try to abuse it and stay indefinitely, or at least a not insignificant portion of them. Germans tried such a system with the Turks but they seem to have lacked the guts and/or capacity to expel them and so they became a immigrant migrant population.
 
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