Arab-Israeli Conflict, v2: What the UN Jerusalem vote mean for Israel, the U.S, and Palestine

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Yes, and it's actions like those of the US/Israel that take away its legitimacy.

But international law is really the only civilized solution to world conflicts. Without it, we have the savagery of the pre-20th century. Countries attack and slaughter the weak (and each other) simply because they want to. This almost got humankind annihilated in WWII so we kinda wised up.
I'm of the opinion they've been neutered since inception. It's not just the US and Israel taking away legitimacy. Even when first created they would "pass resolutions" which a ton of people would just shrug their shoulders and move on.

Does Israel do fucked up shit that they shouldn't? Yes... But like I said before, it's hard to even sit down at the table with people that abide by the idea you shouldn't even exist.

"Jerusalem and al-Aqsa [Mosque] means a lot to everyone here, even the children. This [US] decision is a big mistake."
Really hate how people bring children, like, legitimate children under 12 years of age type children to shit like this. This isn't just for the Israel shit but in general even for things here in the States and elsewhere. Just feels shortsighted and irresponsible.

Also, that Mosque may mean a lot to the Palestinians which are largerly Muslim but that site means a lot to all three Abrahamic religions and the clerics of Islam disallow non-Muslims or Infidels from being on the site.

As a person that doesn't really abide by a religion I can even go to the Vatican and walk around St. Peter's square and the Sistine Chapel... as a non-Muslim I can't go see the Dome as a tourist or go to Mecca to see that. I know this is selfish as fuck sounding but i love looking at the interiors of old Cathedrals and shit to see how they're built. Seeing one of the largest and most recognizable domes in the world from the inside would be cool as fuck but guess what... I can't cause I eat bacon and don't pray 5 times a day.

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At least I can't enter it for the last 17 years. I know prior to that you could apply for and receive a ticket to get in a view it as a non-Muslim but when the second Intifada began that went away and hasn't come back yet.
 
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/protests-palestine-jerusalem-move-171207182916247.html

At least 108 Palestinians have been injured in violent protests across the Occupied Territories after US President Donald Trump formally recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital on Wednesday.

Demonstrators in several Palestinian territories have clashed with Israeli troops.

There have also been protests outside the Old City in occupied East Jerusalem.

A general strike is in place across the Occupied Territories - closing shops, businesses and schools.

Al Jazeera's Harry Fawcett reports from East Jerusalem.
 
So, this might be a bit off the wall but why hasn't anyone thought to do to Jerusalem what the Italians/Romans did with the Vatican? Turn it essentially into a country in and of itself? They could technically do it where the West Bank (as it was before Israel essentially grabbed that spearpoint of land to Jerusalem) into it's own sitting country ruled, say... by a committee made up equally of Jordanians and Israelis for a time being. One rule though is no one on that committee could have been involved in the wars in the 60s and 70s/80s.

That I think is a huge issue in this. All of the Israeli leadership ither fought in or were involved in the intelligence aspects of the wars in the 60s-80s, same as the leadership of like the PLO and as such, old grudges are probably still there.
 
Everybody has something to say about Trumps decision....
Israel: Thank You
Arab nations: there will be hell to pay
Europe: We don't agree this isn't the way to peace...
Trump: Come at me bro....
But I think US just wants the embassy in a safer area.
 
So, this might be a bit off the wall but why hasn't anyone thought to do to Jerusalem what the Italians/Romans did with the Vatican? Turn it essentially into a country in and of itself? They could technically do it where the West Bank (as it was before Israel essentially grabbed that spearpoint of land to Jerusalem) into it's own sitting country ruled, say... by a committee made up equally of Jordanians and Israelis for a time being. One rule though is no one on that committee could have been involved in the wars in the 60s and 70s/80s.

That I think is a huge issue in this. All of the Israeli leadership ither fought in or were involved in the intelligence aspects of the wars in the 60s-80s, same as the leadership of like the PLO and as such, old grudges are probably still there.
The issue is the grudge isn't simply 40, 50 or 60 year old grudge...this is centuries old....
 
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/jordanians-demand-closure-embassy-amman-171207170857947.html

Jordanians demand closure of US embassy in Amman

Hundreds of Jordanians have demonstrated in front of the US embassy in Amman, demanding its closure and the expulsion of the US charge d'affaires from Jordan in response to President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

President Donald Trump issued a statement on Wednesday proclaiming the US decision and preparations to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Jordanian parliamentary political blocs, Islamist movements and independents had called for protests on Thursday and Friday across Jordanian cities and in front of the US embassy in Amman in protest of the US decision.

The US embassy in Amman issued a statement on Thursday suspending public services and limiting the public movement of its staff.

The protesters, who braved cold weather and a heavy police presence, came from diverse political backgrounds and comprised Jordanian nationalists, pan-Arabists, Islamists and leftists.

They chanted "America is the head of the snake" and "No US embassy on Jordanian lands" and "No US bases on Jordanian lands".

Jordanian police fired tear gas at protesters and tried to disperse them. Protesters remained in front of the US embassy all afternoon and evening.

Many of the protesters at the US embassy and elsewhere in Jordan said their anger was driven by Jordanian nationalist feelings, fearing their country was next on the US and Israeli agendas, and by Arab nationalism and Islamist sentiments because of Jerusalem's significance for them.

Sheikh Mohamad al-Hadid, a well-known political activist who participated in the protest, told Al Jazeera that Jordanians fear that Trump's decision is part of a larger US-Israeli plan to end the Palestinian cause at the expense of Jordan and its royal family.

"The Americans and the Israelis are trying to create a political environment in the region to make Jordan as the future homeland of the Palestinians, while Palestine is swallowed whole by the Israelis," Sheikh al-Hadid said.

He said Jerusalem is a "fateful cause for Muslims all over the world".
 
But I think US just wants the embassy in a safer area.
Wouldn't that be Tel Aviv?

Whenever shit starts to go down in Israel it's ALWAYS in Jerusalem. At least it always starts there since Israel took it.
 
the palis want peace. they have no partner. Israel, backed by the international zionists, will win in the end, push the palsi into other arab countries.

I bitch and complain, but in the end, I'm okay, just a goy.
The only reason Pals wanted peace because they themselves are being pushed back by countries they once called brothers...Turkey / Jordan / Syria. Had they won that war...they're probably BFFs...now they're on their own and have no other choice but to accept what's been offered to the table and it's not a lot.
 
Demographic fears

Jordan, a major segment of whose population is of Palestinian origin, stands to suffer the consequences of any future political settlement with Israel that does not consider Jordanian interests or address its demographic fears, according to Jordanian analysts and activists.

Jordanian intellectuals and activists argue that should the US and Israel succeed in eliminating the possibility of a two-state solution where Palestinians would have their independent state, Jordan will be the logical sacrificial lamb of that plan.

Many Members of Parliament (MPs) have called on the government to make a strong stand against Israel by withdrawing the Jordanian ambassador from Tel Aviv and cancelling the peace treaty with Israel it signed in 1994.

Saleh al-Armouti, an MP, said the US decision had practically eliminated any Jordanian role as a custodian of the Muslim holy places in Jerusalem and emboldened the Israeli government to complete its takeover of Jerusalem.

Al-Armouti said that his 14-member Reform bloc, a majority of whom are Islamist MPs, is proposing a bill in parliament to force the Jordanian government to cancel its peace treaty with Israel. He said the bill has already attracted 40 sponsors.

"Trump has violated all international laws and agreements, including those sponsored by the US itself, like the Oslo agreements, by recognising the Israelis' claims before reaching any agreement with the Palestinians," he said.

"In taking this step, the US has made itself the enemy of Arabs and Muslims all over the world."

Khaled al-Majali a political analyst and former intelligence officer, argues that Trump's decision practically eliminated the two-state solution.

"In doing so, the Palestinian population in the occupied West Bank will eventually be transferred over to Jordanian control in some kind of political arrangement like a confederation with Jordan over the remaining land pockets in the West Bank," al-Majali said.

Al-Majali said that Jordan is standing alone against the Israeli-American blitz, abandoned by major Arab countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

"It is clear to us that Trump's decision was made with Arab collusion," said al-Majali, referring to Arab and Israeli media reports suggesting that Trump announced the recognition decision with the agreement of Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
 
Wouldn't that be Tel Aviv?

Whenever shit starts to go down in Israel it's ALWAYS in Jerusalem. At least it always starts there since Israel took it.
You are right.
But watching the news right now I imagine this, rallies are demonstrated across the ME in every US consulate and embassy... Forces to cut off services - meaning no VISA applications and processing - meaning entry to the US will be cut off in every consulate & embassy where rallies are demonstrated....Trump may not have the travel ban he wanted but....
 
So, this might be a bit off the wall but why hasn't anyone thought to do to Jerusalem what the Italians/Romans did with the Vatican? Turn it essentially into a country in and of itself? They could technically do it where the West Bank (as it was before Israel essentially grabbed that spearpoint of land to Jerusalem) into it's own sitting country ruled, say... by a committee made up equally of Jordanians and Israelis for a time being. One rule though is no one on that committee could have been involved in the wars in the 60s and 70s/80s.

That I think is a huge issue in this. All of the Israeli leadership ither fought in or were involved in the intelligence aspects of the wars in the 60s-80s, same as the leadership of like the PLO and as such, old grudges are probably still there.

The idea of Jerusalem being a neutral international zone belonging to no one was in the original UN partition plan. Arabs waged multiple wars against that sensible plan, for dumb-ass reasons that makes zero sense. All this (plus more) has been covered thoroughly in the first article in this thread.

That boat had long sailed. There's no other way from here on out besides West Jerusalem going to Israel and East Jerusalem going to Palestine, where they can set up their beloved Capitals.

The only thing left is the impending haggles on where the boundary runs down in the middle of the city.
 
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The idea of Jerusalem being a neutral international zone belonging to no one was in the original UN partition plan. Arabs waged multiple wars against that sensible plan. For dumb-ass reasons.

That boat has sailed. There's no other way from here on out besides West Jerusalem going to Israel and East Jerusalem going to Palestine, where they can set up their Capitals.

The only thing left is the impensing haggles on where the boundary runs down in the middle of the city.
It's really too bad we can't have a period of about 40 years between wars so the people from the last one can die out or leave leadership roles to allow people that didn't fight each other with guns in their hands to be at the table together.
 
I'm of the opinion they've been neutered since inception. It's not just the US and Israel taking away legitimacy. Even when first created they would "pass resolutions" which a ton of people would just shrug their shoulders and move on.

Does Israel do fucked up shit that they shouldn't? Yes... But like I said before, it's hard to even sit down at the table with people that abide by the idea you shouldn't even exist.

Yes, and the US continues that neutering by doing the most shoulder shrugging. Fact is, in this particular issue, the US continues to be in amazing isolation with the rest of the world. The votes are always 150-2 or 148-3 or something. It's the entire planet vs the US, Israel and sometimes some other nation.

And if it's that hard to sit down at a table with someone, you bring intermediaries in. This happens at every UN session. Both sides state their case and bring their proposals. What are the results?

150-2
 
The only reason Pals wanted peace because they themselves are being pushed back by countries they once called brothers...Turkey / Jordan / Syria. Had they won that war...they're probably BFFs...now they're on their own and have no other choice but to accept what's been offered to the table and it's not a lot.

For all their posturing and lamenting about how "the U.S is no longer a peace-broker", I guarantee you the Palestinian side gonna jump right back into that negotiation table the moment Trump dangle the possibility of the United States recognizing East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital, which I fully expect him to use as a carrot.

There is no one else who can make this happen, if they kept insisting on outdated "solutions" that everyone knows no longer workable. France and the rest of Europe attempted to hold a peace talk base on the "1967 borders" earlier this year, and it turns out to be an utter and complete failure, when neither actors even bother to show up, because they already knew the result.

Multiple U.S Presidents of have tried treating the Jews and the Arabs like sensible adults at the negotiation table, and it went absolutely nowhere because they much prefers to be little children. Perhaps Trump's swift kick in the ass (follows by an offering of chocolate if they behave) is so crazy it just might work.
 
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Look, I don't blame Israel for not wanting to work with a group that insists on a zero sum game essentially and uses regular people to hide behind while they shoot/blow shit up.

Israel uses Palestinians as human shields too. they also have a convenient excuse for attacking crowded places full of people penned up in open air ghettos.
 
The US has never really taken this seriously. Israel was always our boy.

I would say President Bill Clinton really tried his best back in 2000, but they basically wasted his time and effort for absolutely nothing.

Every subsequent "peace talks" after that was just for show, because everybody wanted to keep the status quo.

Seeing my thread was closed down I'll start posting here. @Lead can you by any chance make the thread a merger?

20 pages of random anti-Trump rants and bickering little children flinging mud at one another being dumped into our organized and civilized discussion? No thank you.

This is a very valid Tweet in support of Donald's decision (though one could argue that previous presidents didn't "fail to deliver" so much as make a calculated decision to stay out of it). However, it was really jarring to go from a string of relatively eloquent speakers to Donald, who almost seemed to be slurring his words in the first part of his vid.

Consider the quality of the average threads here in the WR, I have zero doubt there will be yet another thread created especially for that, instead of focusing on the content of the speech itself. :)
 
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Do you think Arabs would be restrained as Israel with the situation reversed?

Do you think Muslims would allow Jews access to their holy sites without prejudice like Israel does for Muslims??

they did for hundreds of years didn't they?

Do you think Muslims would negotiate with patience if it were Mecca in question? You realize Jerusalem is Mecca for Jewish people? If they have no claim to Jerusalem they really have no claim to anything.

If Mecca had a historic claim of 3 modern religions, sure.

Truthfully Israel has been far more patient and restrained than any other county in recent memory considering the power difference and being attacked multiple times and winning every single time. Israel just basically waits for the next invasion.

Yes they wait while they build 100s of settlements and 1000s of homes displace 1000s of people. I laugh at Arab incompetence but its pretty easy to see that their reaction is normal if you imagine some foreign people from another continent colonizing new york and displacing the people that live there from a religious claim. you know for a fact no people on earth would take this.

Israel itself was doing hotel bombs/car bombs and terrorist attacks before they got their country. The leaders of that group, the irgun became Israeli PMs.
 
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