PSA: "Karate blocks" are not blocks!

I was responding to a statement about "karate blocks", not general techniques. I don't think you'll find anyone saying that karate is not used in MMA.

Some of those on the video I posted are blocks. The point is those blocks are not meant to be just blocks, that's what is said in the original thread.
 
Found this video on Iain Abernathy's forum(pretty good source for more "pratical katare" discussion/videos)
Its an interesting take on the applications of Shuto-Uke or Knife Hand Block.

Definitely seems more practical that "chopping" on to the attackers wrist as they punch, as I was taught when i first started karate
 
Another extensive video on Gedan Barai. Not all of these seem practical but this still showcases how many "non-blocking" uses Gedai Barai can have.

 
Another extensive video on Gedan Barai. Not all of these seem practical but this still showcases how many "non-blocking" uses Gedai Barai can have.



Worst video you could have picked. Any of the stuff he's trying on there would have him punched straight in the face by even a semi decent boxer.
 
Worst video you could have picked. Any of the stuff he's trying on there would have him punched straight in the face by even a semi decent boxer.

I think some of those sequences could work to set up a clinch but ducking into a double leg takedown seems like a higher percentage move.

Interestingly the first several would work better in a pure grappling context.
 
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"Karate blocks" are not blocks!


This common misunderstanding has been clarified by wiser Karateka than myself so in this thread I will begin by citing them with source links. I hope that at least some Sherdoggers will find this helpful or interesting. Thank you for your attention.

Let's start with the term "UKE" itself.

One of the most commonly mistranslated and misunderstood words in the karate lexicon is “uke.” Just about anyone who has trained in traditional karate for more than a few weeks should recognize that word. Despite the familiarity of the word, most karateka will erroneously say that “uke” means “block.” This is something that has been deeply ingrained in karate culture – so much so, that even people who know what the word actually means will still say “block” when speaking about it in English. The word “uke” is actually a shortened form of the word “ukeru,” which means “to receive.” This is a much more nuanced term when you apply it to a fighting technique, because you can receive an attack in many more ways than simply blocking it. That nuance is likely why the literal translation of “uke” never gained popularity. A lot of people (particularly Western people) prefer terminology that is specific and precise, rather than vague and nebulous.

SOURCE: http://www.karateobsession.com/2015/03/terminology-confusion.html

“Traditional Karate blocks don’t work against real attacks.”
That’s something I often hear. (Especially from people who don’t practice Karate.)

They claim our Karate blocks require too much strength, power, speed, intuition and effort to successfully work against an opponent attacking full force. I agree.

You see, the Japanese word “uke” is a conjugation of “ukeru”, which literally means TO RECEIVE”. Your blocks are not really “blocks”. They never were. They are ways of “receiving” your opponent’s attack.

Even Funakoshi Gichin (1868-1957), the founder of Shotokan Karate – a style known for being very hard, direct and linear – used “blocks” in a totally different manner in his books compared to today’s Karate practitioners. Yet, in modern Karate, we interpret “uke” as “to block an incoming force”. Totally different concept.

So, make this crucial shift in your mindset:
To “block” is to receive.
That’s the original meaning of “uke”.


SOURCE: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/karate-block-real-meaning/

Uke-waza (receiving techniques) are not solely defensive – they are both defensive and offensive at the same time. (...) If you block your attacker’s initial attack and simultaneously land a significant strike of your own (particularly to the head, as Motobu often suggested), you stand a very good chance of stopping the attacker. The reason for this is two-fold. First of all, you are interrupting a committed attack, which the attacker expects to be overwhelming, so you have a psychological effect. Second, your attacker will likely be moving forward, meaning that they will be moving into your strike. As combat sports pundit, Jack Slack, often says, “creating collisions” like this is the best way to knock someone out. By interrupting your opponent’s attack, and creating a powerful collision, you can end the fight entirely by knocking them out, or daze them enough to cause them to stop their continuous attack and have to reset.

SOURCE: http://www.karateobsession.com/2016/02/motobu-choki-and-stopping-attacks-with-blocks.html

Finally, my favorite example - Gedan Barai or "low block".
(not quoting anyone here, just my personal thoughts)

The word "Gedan" means "low-level" but also "downward", while "Barai" means "sweep" and by no means "block". Note that everyone translates the "barai" in Ashi Barai correctly as "foot sweep", yet in Gedan Barai it suddenly turns into "low block" and nobody bats an eye! :eek: How we ended up with both "uke" ("receive") and "barai" ("sweep") translated as "block" is beyond me...

Now note how a "full" Gedan Barai always starts at the shoulder.

gedanbari.gif


Why? Some people say that this is "windup" to make the block even more powerful and devastating... Sorry for being blunt but this is plain wrong. In a fight where strikes are thrown fast and continuously you don't have time to waste on "windup"! Anyone who has ever done free sparring knows this.

Gedan Barai is one of the first techniques any Karateka learns, whether it's in Taikyoku Shodan or in Heian Shodan. And here's the proper bunkai (application/analysis) for the opening movements of both kata:



Thus, Gedan Barai (in Taikyoku and Heian Shodan) is:
  1. Limb control while you're moving / evading
  2. A neck crank throw (there's that "windup" movement!)
Here's another take on Gedan Barai as limb clearance and a takedown:



And that's not the only thing you can do with Gedan Barai. Here's a self-defense class showing a completely different application (with the "windup" again):



The takeaway.
Okinawan Karate has always been an art very much focused on close-quarter limb control (http://www.karateobsession.com/2015/03/karate-limb-control.html). It is not surprising then, that a group of its fundamental techniques called "receiving" and "sweeping" (uke / barai) transitions directly to limb control and takedowns. The original terms themselves convey the proper meanings so let's not ignore them for the sake of simplicity. "Blocks" are not really blocks.

PS. to my Karate bros:
Any other examples of "blocks" used for control instead of impact? Post your favorite.


Amazing insight. Thank you for this.
 
Gedan barai, as its name implies, is a "harai"/sweep.



Not gedan barai, but another karate technique.



Not gedan barai. Note the upward direction of the sweep as opposed to gedan (lower level).



That's gedan barai in a limited orthodox-southpaw encounter. Not equally applicable to a heavily-defensive encounter to be allotted the privilege of being one of the most practiced move in karate and its derivatives.

BTW, "uke" is the term for the catcher in a Brokeback Mountain relationship...

If that s gedan barai then I guess anything can be gedan barai.
 
These techniques are meant to be used 1000 years back when people fought with sticks, blocking a low kick with the barai shit is stupid and taught in every karate class, the full move would grab the leg and sweep the opponent, what you show is american karate. Striking with open palms or with a chop IS efficient in a street fight if you don't want your fists broken.
 
Karate Blocks/Japaneese JuJitsu Blocks are solely meant for self defence applications, not between two trained men.

Your entire post falls short because you fail to mention that Karate Blocks were not designed to be used in the manner you are saying. They were designed to block against an untrained attacker and or an attacker with a weapon which is why the many of the blocks use the outer arm as a shield. You're taught to take knifes on the least vital parts of your body. Also, if you start using weapon kata which was applicable in the early days for defence. The blocks are usually the same all the way through weapon and or hand to hand.
 
Jesse Enkamp and his brother Oliver (pro MMA fighter with the UFC) conveying basically the same message as the OP:

 
Lol bro is that instructor suspended in a state of permanent puberty?
Yeah I know, he's corny as fuck... but hey, he's spreading some legit good knowledge.
 
This surprised me as a topic. Outside of goju and the organization I came up in, I don’t have much exposure to other karateka, so I thought that was fairly common knowledge as it’s typically taught around 10th-8th Kyu in my experience depending on age and what not.
Also interesting I was just taught what you guys are referring to as gedan barai simply as gedan uke.

Forgive any misspelling I rarely have had a need to type or write out technique names.
Any way it always seemed extremely obvious that ‘blocking’ movements in kata and what not were intended for other interpretations with hikei uke, kakua uke, and mawasha uke.
 
This surprised me as a topic. Outside of goju and the organization I came up in, I don’t have much exposure to other karateka, so I thought that was fairly common knowledge as it’s typically taught around 10th-8th Kyu in my experience depending on age and what not.
Also interesting I was just taught what you guys are referring to as gedan barai simply as gedan uke.

Forgive any misspelling I rarely have had a need to type or write out technique names.
Any way it always seemed extremely obvious that ‘blocking’ movements in kata and what not were intended for other interpretations with hikei uke, kakua uke, and mawasha uke.
Okinawan Karate styles seem to be better at conserving and conveying these proper uke usages. Japanese Karate styles (Shotokan and Kyokushin mainly) discarded them almost completely since they don't fit well with their competition rulesets. Sadly, it's the Japanese Karate that's most popular worldwide so this knowledge isn't globally common.
 
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Okinawan Karate styles seem to be better at conserving and conveying these proper uke usages. Japanese Karate styles (Shotokan and Kyokushin mainly) discarded them almost completely since they don't fit well with their competition rule sets. Sadly, it's the Japanese Karate that's most popular worldwide so this knowledge isn't globally common.

It's also very dependant on the lineage and instructors themselves.
 
since there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable karateka I'm just curious how well known and the regards the Sho-Rei-Shobu Kan organization and the late Shihan Roseberry.
as I've said outside of my org I'm not familiar with other orgs as I mainly just focused on my own training.
 
If a karateka is to defend a kick of a muaythai fighter with the arm he will keep the arm billed
 
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