what's wrong with socialism?

Has Norway stopped its oil industry from producing as much in response to this issue? It seems to me that their commitments to things like Kyoto are quite out of sync with their own oil industry. The link below (with my bolds) is a good example of the tension here, where Norway wants to meet its commitments internally while it continues to sell oil to the rest of the world.

Heh.

It just gave out 75 offshore oil exploration leases to companies in the annual bidding earlier this year. That's the highest ever awarded in a licensing round on the Norwegian continental shelf and the majority of them are in fragile, environmentally vulnerable areas. It's the world's P4P No. 1 fossil fuel hustler. The wealth fund and standard of living is hitched to fossil fuels, they wouldn't exist without them. Norway's total oil and gas production has also been increasing for the last five consecutive years.
 
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The same thing that's wrong with capitalism: The greed of those in power mixed with apathy of those without power.
 
The slow transition towards green tech isn't merely an issue that is born out of stubbornness and greed, it's just far more difficult to implement on a regional - nevermind global - scale than the loudest proponents tend to let on and I'm not even sure if they're aware of it given a lot of the hysterical rhetoric. By implement I don't mean in terms of government policy but the literal utilization. Peter Zeihan addressed this in his recent book.

Available greentechs just don’t cut it. There’s a profound mismatch between demand patterns for energy and what, when, and how much green systems can produce. It all comes down to the balance among the concepts of supply, demand, energy density, and reliability.

The vast majority of mankind’s carbon emissions come from two sources: oil-derived liquid transport fuels and the burning of fossil fuels for electricity production. This is how humanity has done things for good reason. These fuels are not simply relatively easy to source and reliable, but also anyone using them can choose when to use them because they are eminently easy to manipulate.

Production efforts can be ramped up and down as necessary. Above all, storage is simple. Gasoline, diesel, and propane can be kept almost indefinitely in a tank. Coal can literally be left in a pile on the ground. That’s not the case for greentech. A heavy list of factors limit its application.

Latitude. Any zones north of about 42 degrees north latitude — just above Chicago — (or south of 42 degrees south latitude) have too much seasonal variation to enable solar to generate appreciable power half the year. Solar can be brilliant in Phoenix or Santiago, but it is idiotic in Stockholm or Toronto.

Climate. Africa’s Gulf of Guinea region or southern China seem to have good solar potential — they are nowhere near 42 degrees north — until you realize that the regions’ often-rampant humidity creates a persistent solar-impinging haze and clouds, landing them with some of the world’s lowest solar radiation ratings.

Intermittency. Even in places with good solar potential, clouds, mist, dust and such often impair power generation on a minute-by-minute basis. Each time local generation proves insufficient, power surges and brownouts ripple across the electricity-distribution system as some areas get too much power and others not enough. Modifying the U.S. grid so it can handle the ebb and flow of a high-greentech-powered system would run a cool $750 billion. And that assumes there’s enough power coming in from somewhere.

In the case of larger-scale disruption — say an entire city being under cloud cover — another, more traditional source of power generation needs to be tapped to keep electricity flowing. And of course all throughout the history of humanity, the sun has never once shone at night — so you’ll be needing that backup for half the day on average even if everything else is perfect.

Supply/Demand mismatch. Peak daily demand for electricity is between 4 p.m. and 9 p.m., but peak solar supply lies between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. The lack of match-up means that even if nameplate solar generating capacity could handle all demand, the inability to generate power when it is needed forces utilities to operate carbon-burning power generation anyway. Since a coal plant takes 24 (or more) hours to ramp up or down, even large-scale greentech buildouts translate into only negligible reductions in net GHG emissions.

Strategic competition. The best places for solar on the planet are in the Saharan and Arabian Deserts and the Persian highlands. The best place for wind is Siberia. All areas where petroleum is king.

Density. Solar panels take up a great deal of space, particularly if they are not near the equator and must be slanted and separated to capture angled sunlight. Generating 150MW of power from a natural gas-burning facility in the Phoenix area only takes 17 acres of land. Once you take into effect things like panel spacing and angle, getting the same draw from solar would require almost five thousand — and that in the U.S. city with the highest solar potential.

Transmission. There certainly are places where the wind is more reliable (Western Iowa, the North Sea, Western Texas come to mind) or where solar radiation is reliably high (the American High Plains, Tibet and the Australian Outback). But this is not the norm. Only 10 to 20 percent of the Earth’s surface is ideal for either wind or solar power. Deepening the problem is that most of such areas have shockingly low population densities. Transmitting such green power to cities typically requires so much more infrastructure and related maintenance that transmission costs are triple more traditional carbon-based fuels.

Germany is the poster child for the limitations of a fast-paced buildout with today’s less-than-stellar greentechs. The country’s Energiewende program is designed to move the country fully away from carbon-based fuels by 2050, and as part of the program the country has installed some 40 gigawatts of solar-generating capacity, technically enough to generate nearly all its normal electricity requirements.

However, between Germany’s high latitude and persistent cloud cover, the sun rarely shines. All those panels generate but 6 percent of the country’s electricity. For public concern reasons the country is shutting down its nuclear power program, and for geopolitical reasons the country is sidelining its natgas-burning power plants. That only leaves wind (which limited by siting concerns is pretty much maxed out already) … and coal.
Yeah I don't want to be too naive about the prospects of alternative energy, right now they're definitely not good enough to entirely replace fossil fuels. But wouldn't you nonetheless agree that despite this the long term goal should still be the replacement of fossil fuels with renewable even if that's not possible now?

And another counter argument is that even if renewable can't match the output and consistency of fossil fuels, should we even expect them to given the potential catastrophic consequences of climate change? Let's just accept that given for a moment though I concede its not a certainty. If climate change is as bad as the worst predictions say, then shouldn't we expect to have to reduce our energy consumption? Why should we expect that a sustainable economy would allow for as much consumption as the status quo?

Cuba is, by certain metrics, the only developed country with a sustainable economy. But that's likely not unrelated to the frequent blackouts they experience. Point being, the transition to a sustainable economy might not merely require sustainable fuel sources but also sustainable levels of consumption. But that's a tough sell. I like having 24 hour power and beyond the obvious preference there's the fact that certain institutions like hospitals require it.
I don't think u r being alarmist, the concern is justified imo.

The problem is we are saying that in order for the govt to effectively regulate, it has to essentially "take over" corporations to compel them to behave. I think govts are horrible at running business because they don't listen to the profit motive and fall prey to many other interests. There is also the issue of competition and new threats. Frankly if govt can't even pass / enforce a set of reasonable incentives to curb global warming I don't know why they could run a corp well, especially with all the ambiguities they would now face. But you are right, market forces, absent regulations to properly measure and attribute costs/benefits won't do anything. Although govts faced with civilians wanting to heat their homes, keep employment high, have cheap fuel, etc. have not been effective actors either.

But my real issue is I am not sure what the govt owned solution is. Has Norway stopped its oil industry from producing as much in response to this issue? It seems to me that their commitments to things like Kyoto are quite out of sync with their own oil industry. The link below (with my bolds) is a good example of the tension here, where Norway wants to meet its commitments internally while it continues to sell oil to the rest of the world.

That is not to say that NW is not leaps and bounds ahead of the USA, but I think that has more to agreeing to an international framework than owning the oil industry.

https://www.sei.org/publications/norwegian-oil-production-and-keeping-global-warming-well-below-2c/
Yeah that's the paradox of Norway, they've reduced their domestic levels of fossil fuel consumption only to increase their fossil fuel exports. At that point there doesn't really seem to be a net decrease in emissions, its just outsourced basically. And its hard to imagine them slowing that down. Its nice to be able to say you're a green country but to cutback on fuel exports would mean less government revenue and laying off the workers in that industry. Any democratic government presiding over that would have a tough time winning reelection I imagine.

Part of the problem is that they liberalized their nationalized oil company so that the state primarily collects the revenue while allowing it to operate more or less like a private corporation. I would argue for more overt state intervention in the running of the corporation but at that point it would look less like market socialism and more like a command system which I'd agree has its pitfalls to say the very least.
I may be saying something controversial but we should be looking a nuclear again...
From what I've read one of the problems with nuclear is that it costs way too much upfront.
 
Yeah I don't want to be too naive about the prospects of alternative energy, right now they're definitely not good enough to entirely replace fossil fuels. But wouldn't you nonetheless agree that despite this the long term goal should still be the replacement of fossil fuels with renewable even if that's not possible now?

And another counter argument is that even if renewable can't match the output and consistency of fossil fuels, should we even expect them to given the potential catastrophic consequences of climate change? Let's just accept that given for a moment though I concede its not a certainty. If climate change is as bad as the worst predictions say, then shouldn't we expect to have to reduce our energy consumption? Why should we expect that a sustainable economy would allow for as much consumption as the status quo?

Cuba is, by certain metrics, the only developed country with a sustainable economy. But that's likely not unrelated to the frequent blackouts they experience. Point being, the transition to a sustainable economy might not merely require sustainable fuel sources but also sustainable levels of consumption. But that's a tough sell. I like having 24 hour power and beyond the obvious preference there's the fact that certain institutions like hospitals require it.

Definitely.

Not to mention fossil fuels are a finite resource as it is although in the case of North Dakota it'll be sad to give up the newfound stream of wealth. Contrary to assumed belief, the spoils of the US shale revolution haven't been merely lining the pockets of a privileged few and NoDak has been siphoning billions into its own sovereign wealth fund.

It's also the only place in the country with a state-owned bank (est. 1919) which has very successfully served the function of promoting the development of agriculture, commerce and industry within the state, particularly when it comes to extending credit to small and medium sized enterprises.

Yeah that's the paradox of Norway, they've reduced their domestic levels of fossil fuel consumption only to increase their fossil fuel exports. At that point there doesn't really seem to be a net decrease in emissions, its just outsourced basically. And its hard to imagine them slowing that down. Its nice to be able to say you're a green country but to cutback on fuel exports would mean less government revenue and laying off the workers in that industry. Any democratic government presiding over that would have a tough time winning reelection I imagine.

This is also a problem when the same government has done so little to invest in the development of other industries. That's why it needs to be spending more than the paltry 0.6% of GDP that it does on R&D. As previously mentioned, Denmark with roughly the same population size crushes Norway on top level scientific output and its R&D intensity is five times as high.

Imagine if the drunken ass Per Hækkerup never signed over the rights to the Ekofisk oil field @Prutfis. I know it's an urban legend, but still funny as hell.

9b33483ece3dec310e00bb063a8cc391.png
 
Yeah I don't want to be too naive about the prospects of alternative energy, right now they're definitely not good enough to entirely replace fossil fuels. But wouldn't you nonetheless agree that despite this the long term goal should still be the replacement of fossil fuels with renewable even if that's not possible now?

And another counter argument is that even if renewable can't match the output and consistency of fossil fuels, should we even expect them to given the potential catastrophic consequences of climate change? Let's just accept that given for a moment though I concede its not a certainty. If climate change is as bad as the worst predictions say, then shouldn't we expect to have to reduce our energy consumption? Why should we expect that a sustainable economy would allow for as much consumption as the status quo?

Cuba is, by certain metrics, the only developed country with a sustainable economy. But that's likely not unrelated to the frequent blackouts they experience. Point being, the transition to a sustainable economy might not merely require sustainable fuel sources but also sustainable levels of consumption. But that's a tough sell. I like having 24 hour power and beyond the obvious preference there's the fact that certain institutions like hospitals require it.

Yeah that's the paradox of Norway, they've reduced their domestic levels of fossil fuel consumption only to increase their fossil fuel exports. At that point there doesn't really seem to be a net decrease in emissions, its just outsourced basically. And its hard to imagine them slowing that down. Its nice to be able to say you're a green country but to cutback on fuel exports would mean less government revenue and laying off the workers in that industry. Any democratic government presiding over that would have a tough time winning reelection I imagine.

Part of the problem is that they liberalized their nationalized oil company so that the state primarily collects the revenue while allowing it to operate more or less like a private corporation. I would argue for more overt state intervention in the running of the corporation but at that point it would look less like market socialism and more like a command system which I'd agree has its pitfalls to say the very least.

From what I've read one of the problems with nuclear is that it costs way too much upfront.


Good post. Just to add even if Norway took more direct control I doubt it would change its behavior, the economic motives (source of income and therefore political stability) for oil sale would still exist, they might be just less efficient at exploration.
 
Well I agree no such society exists, but to declare that Capitalism is therefore the best we can muster seems... dubious. But then again, I'm not the person to offload Socialist theory onto you, and besides that it seems like you've already concluded it cannot work.

I do think politics should first be defined by what is achievable in theory, even if that's not possible right now. So regarding the dissolution of classes, sure, maybe it's not plausible right now. But what about when we have robotics ingrained in every major industry? We produce food the world over, right now, and humans still live in hunger. Do you agree things like this can be addressed?



The US system isn’t purely capitalism tho, it’s a mixture of things. I’m also not saying that socialism can’t work -there are some countries that use it as their base with success. I am saying that I don’t want that system, and that it isn’t necessary for people to succeed in the system we already have.


As for your 2nd paragraph.. I have no problem with theories and the definitions, but I’d also say you have to be realistic in your conclusions. I don’t personally think equality is defined by just 1 thing, I also don’t want a political system in charge of that defenition because to me that indicates the elimination of freedom in one way or another.. because for that system to have that kind of effect, it would also have to have that kind of control.


And I don’t want to be controlled by a government.
 
Deductible from what? Taxes, the asset value used to calculate rent? What formula is being used to determine the rental value over time by the govt in the absence of a market?

Second sentence, I understand, I just think it's arbitrary/ not meaningful. I used to rent and have more stocks, now I have a house with relatively less stocks. Housing and the provision of it is an economic need, no need to separate it out imo.

Taxes, yes. There's no absence of a market.

I see your point on the second bit, but including it also has problems, and some choice has to be made.
 
Everyone isn't equal though. People have different abilities, talents, strengths and weaknesses. Yes, all American citizens are equal under the law and should not be discriminated against based on sex, religion, race, ethnicity etc. but there will never be equality of outcomes without extreme measures taken by government that not everyone will agree with.

Btw, middle-class is rich in a relative sense. You have to start somewhere.

Not sure how any of this is relevant to the current discussion or any real-world discussion.
 
I think that the benefits of socialism should have to be earned by in the individual.

For example, if you want the country to pay for your college education then you should have to serve in your country's military. If you're unwilling to serve your country then why should your country serve you?

If you want lifelong healthcare paid for by your country, serve your country. If you're unwilling to care for your country then why should your country care for you?

These things that people want: universal healthcare, free education.. They already exist. We already have them. And all it takes to get them is a paltry 4 years of service to your country.

As it is popularly discussed, socialism is just a code word for people that want free shit from other people for nothing in return and no responsibility. That's wrong.
 
Yeah I don't want to be too naive about the prospects of alternative energy, right now they're definitely not good enough to entirely replace fossil fuels. But wouldn't you nonetheless agree that despite this the long term goal should still be the replacement of fossil fuels with renewable even if that's not possible now?

And another counter argument is that even if renewable can't match the output and consistency of fossil fuels, should we even expect them to given the potential catastrophic consequences of climate change? Let's just accept that given for a moment though I concede its not a certainty. If climate change is as bad as the worst predictions say, then shouldn't we expect to have to reduce our energy consumption? Why should we expect that a sustainable economy would allow for as much consumption as the status quo?

Cuba is, by certain metrics, the only developed country with a sustainable economy. But that's likely not unrelated to the frequent blackouts they experience. Point being, the transition to a sustainable economy might not merely require sustainable fuel sources but also sustainable levels of consumption. But that's a tough sell. I like having 24 hour power and beyond the obvious preference there's the fact that certain institutions like hospitals require it.

Yeah that's the paradox of Norway, they've reduced their domestic levels of fossil fuel consumption only to increase their fossil fuel exports. At that point there doesn't really seem to be a net decrease in emissions, its just outsourced basically. And its hard to imagine them slowing that down. Its nice to be able to say you're a green country but to cutback on fuel exports would mean less government revenue and laying off the workers in that industry. Any democratic government presiding over that would have a tough time winning reelection I imagine.

Part of the problem is that they liberalized their nationalized oil company so that the state primarily collects the revenue while allowing it to operate more or less like a private corporation. I would argue for more overt state intervention in the running of the corporation but at that point it would look less like market socialism and more like a command system which I'd agree has its pitfalls to say the very least.

From what I've read one of the problems with nuclear is that it costs way too much upfront.

Scientists Just Created a Magnetic Field That Takes Us Closer Than Ever Before to Harnessing Nuclear Fusion

BY KRISTIN HOUSER, FUTURISM

SEPTEMBER 22, 2018


Inexpensive clean energy sounds like a pipe dream. Scientists have long thought that nuclear fusion, the type of reaction that powers stars like the Sun, could be one way to make it happen, but the reaction has been too difficult to maintain.

Now, we're closer than ever before to making it happen — physicists from the University of Tokyo (UTokyo) say they've produced the strongest-ever controllable magnetic field.


"One way to produce fusion power is to confine plasma — a sea of charged particles — in a large ring called a tokamak in order to extract energy from it," said lead researcher Shojiro Takeyama in a press release.


The magnetic field that a tokamak would require is "tantalizingly similar to what our device can produce," he said.


To generate the magnetic field, the UTokyo researchers built a sophisticated device capable of electromagnetic flux-compression (EMFC), a method of magnetic field generation well-suited for indoor operations.


They describe the work in a new paper published Monday in the Review of Scientific Instruments.


Using the device, they were able to produce a magnetic field of 1,200 teslas — about 120,000 times as strong as a magnet that sticks to your refrigerator.


Though not the strongest field ever created, the physicists were able to sustain it for 100 microseconds, thousands of times longer than previous attempts.


They could also control the magnetic field, so it didn't destroy their equipment like some past attempts to create powerful fields.

https://www.sciencealert.com/scient...akes-us-one-step-closer-to-nuclear-fusion/amp
 
For example, if you want the country to pay for your college education then you should have to serve in your country's military. If you're unwilling to serve your country then why should your country serve you?

Depending on your skills, most people would serve their country better by working in the private sector than they would be joining the military.

As it is popularly discussed, socialism is just a code word for people that want free shit from other people for nothing in return and no responsibility. That's wrong.

Not really. Given that we didn't create the planet and we're not the first generation, there is existing wealth that inevitably gets distributed to someone who didn't create it. The issue is just how to divvy up unearned wealth.
 
Taxes, yes. There's no absence of a market.

I see your point on the second bit, but including it also has problems, and some choice has to be made.

Ok so I spend 100k on improvements and then get 30k in deductions form revenue (ie 30% tax rate). The improvements raise the value of land 200k and the government decides that it, say, justifies an increase in annual rent (on lease renewal), of 20k a year (it decides land values at 10x income).

Spend 100, get back 30, make a 170 for the government (broken down as 30k back to me and 200 to the govt paid as 20k per year on a 10% ROIC). We could change it around (not a tax deduction and 100% tax credit, then the govt is funding all improvements), but in all cases you need some valuation on value and way to address it. There is no market establishing the rent the govt charges for land. Otherwise it’s a conceptually great system.

It’s actually not too dissimilar from the issue with property taxes now, which really on arbitrary valuations that then get fought in court, except since we are going from like 2% to a much higher rental number, the impact is obv going to be bigger.

Second point, got it, Sherdog consensus reached lol.
 
Depending on your skills, most people would serve their country better by working in the private sector than they would be joining the military.
If you can't even serve your country for 4 years then why should your country serve you for life? If you want to serve the private sector and can't even serve your country for 4 years then the private sector should pay for your healthcare and education instead. If you can't provide enough value to the private sector for it to provide things for you then you should serve your country for 4 years.
 
If you can't even serve your country for 4 years then why should your country serve you for life? If you want to serve the private sector and can't even serve your country for 4 years then the private sector should pay for your healthcare and education instead. If you can't provide enough value to the private sector for it to provide things for you then you should serve your country for 4 years.

Do you really think there is an equivalence between a person's willingness to sacrifice literal life and limb - and personal conscience by agreeing to kill fellow human beings when and where commanded - with their willingness to sacrifice a percentage of their income to taxation??
 
First off, do you agree that balance between equality and freedom are desirable? That having a North Korea or a Somalia is a bad idea if we follow the left or right too far?

If we can agree to that, I can talk about what a true republican government is in my views of philosophy. If not, I would just be wasting your time.

I agree with you. I'd like to learn more about true republicanism. Tell me please.
 
Ok so I spend 100k on improvements and then get 30k in deductions form revenue (ie 30% tax rate). The improvements raise the value of land 200k and the government decides that it, say, justifies an increase in annual rent (on lease renewal), of 20k a year (it decides land values at 10x income).

Spend 100, get back 30, make a 170 for the government (broken down as 30k back to me and 200 to the govt paid as 20k per year on a 10% ROIC). We could change it around (not a tax deduction and 100% tax credit, then the govt is funding all improvements), but in all cases you need some valuation on value and way to address it. There is no market establishing the rent the govt charges for land. Otherwise it’s a conceptually great system.

It’s actually not too dissimilar from the issue with property taxes now, which really on arbitrary valuations that then get fought in court, except since we are going from like 2% to a much higher rental number, the impact is obv going to be bigger.

Second point, got it, Sherdog consensus reached lol.
If you're talking about LVT, isn't that a tax on the unimproved value of land? I thought one of the benefits is supposed to be the incentive to make improvements for that reason. Another is building up instead of out, reducing urban sprawl, etc. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting something.
 
If you're talking about LVT, isn't that a tax on the unimproved value of land? I thought one of the benefits is supposed to be the incentive to make improvements for that reason. Another is building up instead of out, reducing urban sprawl, etc. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting something.

100%

And I get why economists like it.

It’s efficient like sales taxes and reduces inequality like income taxes. Best of both worlds imo.

You don’t see it widely adopted anywhere as the main source of income and one of the reasons is, I suspect, is that it relies on government valuations to separate out the “value of the unused land”.

Ha Ok I’m not crazy here, just found this

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ec...xes-are-so-popular-yet-so-rare#ampf=undefined

But if LVTs are so great, why are they so rare? One explanation is that it is too difficult to value land separately from what sits on it. There is not much of a market, for example, for undeveloped land in central London.

Of course it’s not insurmountable but the larger the tax the bigger the issue becomes. Also problematic is that the first time you implement it you really hurt current owners, but that’s an implementation issue, not whether it’s the best ideal tax or not.
 
Good post. Just to add even if Norway took more direct control I doubt it would change its behavior, the economic motives (source of income and therefore political stability) for oil sale would still exist, they might be just less efficient at exploration.

Yup, they're going to drill until every well has run dry.

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100%

And I get why economists like it.

It’s efficient like sales taxes and reduces inequality like income taxes. Best of both worlds imo.

You don’t see it widely adopted anywhere as the main source of income and one of the reasons is, I suspect, is that it relies on government valuations to separate out the “value of the unused land”.
Yeah, the government valuation component sounds dicey. The infrastructure for that kind of thing exists at the state level thanks to property tax, so there's that.

I've always liked the idea for the reasons you mentioned, plus I feel as a replacement for income tax it dampens the class warfare noise we have to listen to in the US.



Well, this is starting out to be an interesting read...


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Yeah, the government valuation component sounds dicey. The infrastructure for that kind of thing exists at the state level thanks to property tax, so there's that.

I've always liked the idea for the reasons you mentioned, plus I feel as a replacement for income tax it dampens the class warfare noise we have to listen to in the US.




Well, this is starting out to be an interesting read...


(*"You’ve reached your article limit"*)
homer-simpson-doh-gif-7.gif

Ha Ha

Yeah I was rationalizing though my own concerns with it (goergist stuff) and was happy to see I am not the first one to hone into a similar issue in the context of the LVT. I used to be a big economist reader so .....

And the issue is not so much infrastructure but the subjectivity lends a certain arbitraryness, unpredictability, much like property taxes already do (but to a lesser extent as its a much smaller piece of the tax base).
 
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