Catch Wrestling United

Anyone "catch" that attempted Inverted shot to leg attack by Tim Elliot tonight? Just missed it, wasn't deep enough tho. Gutsy move in MMA!!!!
 
Post fight press conference and Barnett mentions.....

Billy Robinson
Matt Hume
Gotch
Paulson

Did anyone catch the Japanese guy he mentioned? Also states "Skill first, conditioning second"
 
Wow that Tim Elliot!!! I caught that rolling Imanari leglock attempt for sure, did the commentators? Guessing not, Bas missed it WSOF when kid tried it few weeks ago as well... :(

Glad I put the tape drilling it out couple months ago.

Oh, anyone see the missed opportunity for the Bar arm and Hammer lock behind the back by Mendes to Guida? Front turtle like in my vid, had the underhook all notched in deep just had to grab the wrist with his other hand.......the buff kid I help train caught it we thought it was going to happen for a sec!
 
You cannot seriously consider yourself a cacc guy if you like beeing on your back, it's a non-sense.

Catch wrestling = wrestling + sub, and wrestler dont go on their back.

So, my short answer is NO.

Josh Barnett
Frank Shamrock
Dennis Hallman
Sak


Not Catch guys? Or is your "idea" of Catch a little off? The body scissor or guard has been prevalent in Catch since the beginning and morso since modern MMA. Catch isn't and never was a static art.
 
I know it's been asked before, but what does everyone think of Tony Cecchine? I have the lost art of hooking, and I do think its pretty good, but I'm not a catch guy and don't know much about catch.
 
Josh Barnett
Frank Shamrock
Dennis Hallman
Sak


Not Catch guys? Or is your "idea" of Catch a little off? The body scissor or guard has been prevalent in Catch since the beginning and morso since modern MMA. Catch isn't and never was a static art.

Title, i said: do not LIKE being on his back' all of those guys except maybe Shamy, do not like the whore position and avoid it most of the time. It's the wrestler mentality and cacc is wrestling plus subs...

Cacc have pins, so when you train cacc, you avoid the back. It's not a big secret.

Now, if you talk cacc for mma, and i know what i'm talking about, i'm primary an mma coach wih strong cacc influwnce since my grappling back ground is cacc (under Kris Iastkevich). It's a different thing.

We have to train the guard, 'cause shit happen ;-)

But a guy like Mir who love guard and suck at wrwslting cannot be seriously said that he isba cacc guy.
 
Wow that Tim Elliot!!! I caught that rolling Imanari leglock attempt for sure, did the commentators? Guessing not, Bas missed it WSOF when kid tried it few weeks ago as well... :(

No, Rogan acted like he had no idea what it was.:icon_neut

Oh, anyone see the missed opportunity for the Bar arm and Hammer lock behind the back by Mendes to Guida? Front turtle like in my vid, had the underhook all notched in deep just had to grab the wrist with his other hand.......the buff kid I help train caught it we thought it was going to happen for a sec!

Lol, yup!!! My girlfriend (started under F. shamrock) was screaming for before I even noticed!:redface: it was right there, wide open and would have been very brutal.:icon_surp
 
Title, i said: do not LIKE being on his back' all of those guys except maybe Shamy, do not like the whore position and avoid it most of the time. It's the wrestler mentality and cacc is wrestling plus subs...

Cacc have pins, so when you train cacc, you avoid the back. It's not a big secret.

Now, if you talk cacc for mma, and i know what i'm talking about, i'm primary an mma coach wih strong cacc influwnce since my grappling back ground is cacc (under Kris Iastkevich). It's a different thing.

We have to train the guard, 'cause shit happen ;-)

But a guy like Mir who love guard and suck at wrwslting cannot be seriously said that he isba cacc guy.

My bad, I totally misread the intent of that post.:redface:

Yes what you said makes a ton of sense.
 
Damn Title, sounds like you have a sweet ass girlfriend! Im Jelly......

And it is a good debate.....Hallman, Barnett, Sakuraba all apply the wrestling wanting top dominance even if they have fought on their backs a lot in scissors guard as well......being good there, and being a butt flopper are a bit different. Nothing wrong with starting grappling from your back to sweep, scramble, get on top....or sometimes just to play so you are comfortable any position.

Frank, tons of JMMA fighters and influenced fighters, missed a bit of the top dominance wanting to use gravity, wrestling etc.

While I fell you should be totally comfortable any position like Frank, I think you should also seek dominate positions. Rickson did that in ALL his MMA fights too keep in mind. Carlson taught all BTT type guys the same as well....just throwing that out there. Frank Mir does have the right approach to seeing limb and focusing on it and killing it. There is another guy if you watched his fights, doing lock flow series in fights, instead of going to kill it with the very first sub attempt and owning it. Sure, you should know all the followups and transitions, but the first approach like Mir is better IMO from the Sub perspective.

As for Whore position, well, always turtleing isn't great IMO either because guys stay there, instead of Instantly sitting out, stand up, gramby roll, "Monkey Roll to kneebar", Double Wrist lock sit out etc. etc. And I started Vale Tudo NHB Rules so knees to the head always in mind, and street should always be kept in mind a bit anyway.

What positions should be really focused on when first teaching someone? I have always focused on a bit of overview of all positions, then focus on good sidemount w proper weight distribution off the bat. Then some basic wrestling stuff like I mentioned paragraph above prob best. If they get that off the bat it goes far. Then maybe some half guard survival and basic sweeps. Thoughts?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Title Fight Productions

Personally when I think of "North American" Catch I think of guys like......

Frank Shamrock
Brian Ebersole
Crazy Bob Cook
Ken Shamrock
Matt Hume
Dennis Hallman
Josh Barnett
Misha Tate
Mighty Mouse
Fodor
Ivan Salavery
Jeff Monson


Just off the top of my head.


Notice that almost all those guy have some kind of connection to Japan or have wrestled fought in Japanese Pro Wrestling or Pro Wrestling to MMA spin offs (Rings, Pancrase, Shooto, Pride).

Back before Kayfabe was broken and national TV took over and before the internet existed, American pro wrestling was based on the territory system. Now the champions of one territory would be loaned to other territories for title matches versus their champion. The problem was that their was always the danger of one territories champion "shooting" on the other champion and not following the predetermined outcome. This meant that to become champion you had to know "catch" (wrestling techniques and submissions) in order to defend yourself versus a shoot.



So the trainers and wrestlers had to learn the techniques. When the cocky young limelight seeking big man, Terry Bollea walked into trainer Hiro Matsuda's pro wrestling gym in Tampa wanting to become a pro wrestler, Matsuda taught him a lesson by breaking Bollea's leg with leg locks on the first day of training. Bollea (Hulk Hogan) was on the shelf for months and when he finally healed, Matsuda taught him enough about sub defense in case a wrestler ever did shoot on him.

So at that time, late 70's, early 80's you could learn catch wrestling if you trained at a pro wrestling gym. The trainers whether it be the Funks, Stu Hart, Matsuda, etc knew their stuff.

However, Vince MacMahon decided to break up the territory system by creating a national wrestling organization called the WWF (WWE now) on national tv. Without a territory system, their was no longer a need for the champions to worry about getting shot on by other territories champions. So wrestling and submissions techniques were no longer needed to become champion.

Also, MacMahon favored the jacked body builder types and giant wrestlers over technical wrestlers (guys with actual wresting and submission skill) so time was spent with heavy lifting and roiding instead of working on actual technical skills.

So basically what you see today is guy's with zero skill like John Cena or HHH who would get destroyed in an MMA fight or submission grappling match. (There are exceptions like CM Punk, Kurt Angle, Lesnar but those are people who have some grappling skills from training MMA or having a NCAA wrestling background).

In Japan however, Pro Wrestling retained the stiff, catch style and the Pro Wrestling to MMA spin offs (Rings, Shooto, Pancrase, Pride) were all started by the top star Pro Wrestlers/Catch Wrestlers so in order to succeed you still needed to learn actual wrestling and submissions.

Hogan's matches in America consisted of basically 4 moves: Hulking up, Body Slam, Leg Drop, Pin but if you watch some of his matches in Japan he actually had to wrestle over there and it's like watching a totally different guy:
Match vs Akira Maeda (founder of Rings and K-1 Heros MMA organization President) (1983):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa0liaS0ckA

So with Kayfabe being broken, the destruction of the territory system by Vince, the internet, catch wrestling basically died in North America. When the trainers died and the old territories folded that was basically it in terms of catch coming from the states.

The only ones who are really teaching catch in the US and have actual experience in catch are Eric Paulson, Billy Robinson, Matt Hume, David Hart Smith (British Bulldog's son) Frank Shamrock and Gene Lebell and all those guys save Lebell spent alot of time in Japan. (Josh Barnett doesn't really teach at all since he's focussed more on his MMA and Pro Wrestling in Japan career).
 
I think Josh actually does teach a class on Catch wrestling at Paulson's place.

Gene Lebell Learned from the great Lou Thesz and Ed Lewis among others.
 
I think Josh actually does teach a class on Catch wrestling at Paulson's place.

Gene Lebell Learned from the great Lou Thesz and Ed Lewis among others.

Yes, Josh does teach and has for awhile now and actually has some decent students!!

I took that post from a thread in F12 on Catch and didn't want to
Nitpick that point in an attempt to keep it moving foreward with turning into a shit show of BJJ vs. Catch and why Catch sucks.
 
Most of the time, trying to escape without knowing what's going on lead to injuries.

So, like you said, if they know nothing about leg lock...
Yeah.... I'm going to have to talk to them, dosent really seem like there is much grappling that's not heavily tied to Jiu-jitsu in my area. It was great to see Josh Barnett win and represent Catch Wrestling on Saturday!
 
Reposting the post since you left out the territorial map and the youtube link was to the wrong video so I had to edit the post to link it to the 10 minute version of Hogan vs Maeda.

"Personally when I think of "North American" Catch I think of guys like......

Frank Shamrock
Brian Ebersole
Crazy Bob Cook
Ken Shamrock
Matt Hume
Dennis Hallman
Josh Barnett
Misha Tate
Mighty Mouse
Fodor
Ivan Salavery
Jeff Monson


Just off the top of my head"

Notice that almost all those guy have some kind of connection to Japan or have wrestled fought in Japanese Pro Wrestling or Pro Wrestling to MMA spin offs (Rings, Pancrase, Shooto, Pride).

Back before Kayfabe was broken and national TV took over and before the internet existed, American pro wrestling was based on the territory system. Now the champions of one territory would be loaned to other territories for title matches versus their champion. The problem was that their was always the danger of one territories champion "shooting" on the other champion and not following the predetermined outcome. This meant that to become champion you had to know "catch" (wrestling techniques and submissions) in order to defend yourself versus a shoot.

territory_map.jpg


So the trainers and wrestlers had to learn the techniques. When the cocky young limelight seeking big man, Terry Bollea walked into trainer Hiro Matsuda's pro wrestling gym in Tampa wanting to become a pro wrestler, Matsuda taught him a lesson by breaking Bollea's leg with leg locks on the first day of training. Bollea (Hulk Hogan) was on the shelf for months and when he finally healed, Matsuda taught him enough about sub defense in case a wrestler ever did shoot on him.

So at that time, late 70's, early 80's you could learn catch wrestling if you trained at a pro wrestling gym. The trainers whether it be the Funks, Stu Hart, Matsuda, etc knew their stuff.

However, Vince MacMahon decided to break up the territory system by creating a national wrestling organization called the WWF (WWE now) on national tv. Without a territory system, their was no longer a need for the champions to worry about getting shot on by other territories champions. So wrestling and submissions techniques were no longer needed to become champion.

Also, MacMahon favored the jacked body builder types and giant wrestlers over technical wrestlers (guys with actual wresting and submission skill) so time was spent with heavy lifting and roiding instead of working on actual technical skills.

So basically what you see today is guy's with zero skill like John Cena or HHH who would get destroyed in an MMA fight or submission grappling match. (There are exceptions like CM Punk, Kurt Angle, Lesnar but those are people who have some grappling skills from training MMA or having a NCAA wrestling background).

In Japan however, Pro Wrestling retained the stiff, catch style and the Pro Wrestling to MMA spin offs (Rings, Shooto, Pancrase, Pride) were all started by the top star Pro Wrestlers/Catch Wrestlers so in order to succeed you still needed to learn actual wrestling and submissions.

Hogan's matches in America consisted of basically 4 moves: Hulking up, Body Slam, Leg Drop, Pin but if you watch some of his matches in Japan he actually had to wrestle over there and it's like watching a totally different guy:
Match vs Akira Maeda (founder of Rings and K-1 Heros MMA organization President) (1983):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbMQFL5KyLg


So with Kayfabe being broken, the destruction of the territory system by Vince, the internet, catch wrestling basically died in North America. When the trainers died and the old territories folded that was basically it in terms of catch coming from the states.

The only ones who are really teaching catch in the US and have actual experience in catch are Eric Paulson, Billy Robinson, Matt Hume, David Hart Smith (British Bulldog's son) Frank Shamrock and Gene Lebell and all those guys save Lebell spent alot of time in Japan. (Josh Barnett doesn't really teach at all since he's focussed more on his MMA and Pro Wrestling in Japan career).
 
Anyone know if Barnett has trained with Ken Shamrock? two of the greatest american catch wrestlers, I know Ken has worked with Paulson and Barnett has with Suzuki and Funaki.. (Ken's teachers)
 
Anyone "catch" that attempted Inverted shot to leg attack by Tim Elliot tonight? Just missed it, wasn't deep enough tho. Gutsy move in MMA!!!!

haha, yeah that was awesome! then joe said something dumb like "he went for a very dangerous ankle pick", c'mon now joe
 
Anyone know if Barnett has trained with Ken Shamrock? two of the greatest american catch wrestlers, I know Ken has worked with Paulson and Barnett has with Suzuki and Funaki.. (Ken's teachers)

I'm not sure but they did have a pro wrestling match together in Japan.
 
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