1937 clip from a boxer vs. wrestler match

[europe1]

Garbage. The only decent guy they got was Ken Shamrock, who had 1 year of experience in Pancrase (vs. a lifetime of training and Gracie Challenge matches for Royce). What's more, Ken fought in Japan 3 days before UFC 1...ever heard of jet lag then fighting at mile-high altitude? There were a couple of decent strikers (Gordeau and Pat Smith), but Gordeau had a broken hand and foot by the time he fought Royce. He might as well have forfeited.

They also allowed the Gracies to fight under the rules they wanted (wearing a gi was okay) but didn't allow Ken to wear wrestling boots--even if he agreed not to kick. Typical Gracie shenanigans. Sakaruba just let them custom-tailor their own rules then beat them any way.

Not to mention Ken didn't know who the Gracies were. When he saw Royce's Gi he thought the guy was a Karate fighter. While the Gracies knew who Ken where (they originally tried getting one of his students but when Ken got wind of the prize-sum he entered himself)

 

[gono btw]

I didn't see any discipline at all - I just saw swangin!

then u didnt watch Ken or Hoyce

 

[gono btw]

Garbage. The only decent guy they got was Ken Shamrock, who had 1 year of experience in Pancrase (vs. a lifetime of training and Gracie Challenge matches for Royce). What's more, Ken fought in Japan 3 days before UFC 1...ever heard of jet lag then fighting at mile-high altitude? There were a couple of decent strikers (Gordeau and Pat Smith), but Gordeau had a broken hand and foot by the time he fought Royce. He might as well have forfeited.

They also allowed the Gracies to fight under the rules they wanted (wearing a gi was okay) but didn't allow Ken to wear wrestling boots--even if he agreed not to kick. Typical Gracie shenanigans. Sakaruba just let them custom-tailor their own rules then beat them any way.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1.3734725/

 

[gono btw]

Generally these old fights btw boxers vs wrestlers or judo dudes could hardly be considered NHB´s godfathers... mutliple rules tending to limit the wrestler´s edge...

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Generally these old fights btw boxers vs wrestlers or judo dudes could hardly be considered NHB´s godfathers... mutliple rules tending to limit the wrestler´s edge...

next time you find yourself with 3 hours you should go down the history of catch wrestling internet rabbit hole. it's pure fun.

start with Billy Robinson's Snake Pit. or Hackenschmidt. either one will get you going. both will eventually get you to Rikidōzan and his urine soaked knife, among other places.

the history of NHB is a rich tapestry.

 

[gono btw]

next time you find yourself with 3 hours you should go down the history of catch wrestling internet rabbit hole. it's pure fun.

start with Billy Robinson's Snake Pit. or Hackenschmidt. either one will get you going. both will eventually get you to Rikidōzan and his urine soaked knife, among other places.

the history of NHB is a rich tapestry.

thanx...

there are multiple roads leading to us here and now...

I feel the Geo Omori´s one is the closest to us, though...

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Gracies owned. Mad it took to early 90s to catch on

Not to mention Ken didn't know who the Gracies were. When he saw Royce's Gi he thought the guy was a Karate fighter. While the Gracies knew who Ken where (they originally tried getting one of his students but when Ken got wind of the prize-sum he entered himself)

true

ken imo owned royce in rematch. Sat in his guard which was a death trap

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

next time you find yourself with 3 hours you should go down the history of catch wrestling internet rabbit hole. it's pure fun.

start with Billy Robinson's Snake Pit. or Hackenschmidt. either one will get you going. both will eventually get you to Rikidōzan and his urine soaked knife, among other places.

the history of NHB is a rich tapestry.

Karl gotch

 

[Tuf_guy]

then u didnt watch Ken or Hoyce

Or I'm referencing a funny Jim Brown comment

 

[Tuf_guy]

Was this supposed to be similar to pro-wrestling rules? The ref kept looking for the fall, it looked like, and I thought I saw the boxer get a submission broken up from grabbing the rope at least once.

 

[gono btw]

Or I'm referencing a funny Jim Brown comment

When it started, Brown was already in the Gracie Universe full-time...

 

[mkt]

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1.3734725/

Not sure what your point is, but by 1993, Ruas would've been a major challenge for Royce. So would Oleg Taktarov, who won a UFC-like tournament in Russia in '93. Like I said, Ken fought 3 days before the event in Japan, and had to deal with jet lag, a totally different altitude and Gracie-favored rules. He had zero experience in fighting someone with a gi, and was fighting someone who had been training since a toddler (again, Ken had 1 year of experience).

The event was a marketing ploy by the Gracies--nothing more, nothing less. I was active in some old NHB boards, and we had this figured out pretty quickly. Rorian was normally called Whorian for this reason.

 

[mkt]

Gracies owned. Mad it took to early 90s to catch on

Given the Gracies' experience and challenge matches, what they did wasn't surprising at all. What was much more surprising (and impressive) is how fighters like Sakuraba and Frank Shamrock only needed a few years to catch up and surpass the Gracies.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Given the Gracies' experience and challenge matches, what they did wasn't surprising at all. What was much more surprising (and impressive) is how fighters like Sakuraba and Frank Shamrock only needed a few years to catch up and surpass the Gracies.

it didn't take long.
guys like ken paved the way ufc 5 people hate that fight but it was big evolution of the sport
saku was magical. He beat 4 gracies?

Frank was. genius too.

 

[gono btw]

Not sure what your point is, but by 1993, Ruas would've been a major challenge for Royce. So would Oleg Taktarov, who won a UFC-like tournament in Russia in '93. Like I said, Ken fought 3 days before the event in Japan, and had to deal with jet lag, a totally different altitude and Gracie-favored rules. He had zero experience in fighting someone with a gi, and was fighting someone who had been training since a toddler (again, Ken had 1 year of experience).

The event was a marketing ploy by the Gracies--nothing more, nothing less. I was active in some old NHB boards, and we had this figured out pretty quickly. Rorian was normally called Whorian for this reason.

Well, my point is pretty clear in this thread:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1.3734725/

The Renan Pitanguy [BJJ] X Eugênio Tadeu [Luta Livre] fight should be
a reference to understand what happened, and should have happened
at UFC1.

Ken didnt lose coz of Rorion, jetlag, GI etc...

Had he fought like Tadeu [similar skill set, and the size
difference btw Tadeu & Pitanguy is similar to the one
btw Hoyce & Ken] fought against Pitanguy, he could have won.

Ken didnt win coz he entered this fight with a Pancrase
mindset, not a NHB one.

Now, for sure Ruas would have been a major challenge for Hoyce,
you´re right. He showed it against Pinduka, Rickson´s toughest student.


On a sidenote, saying that "The event was a marketing ploy by the Gracies"
is quite simplistic.

Them Gracies had their agenda, for sure, but they were the
frontrunners of a bigger master plan: build a market
in what they perceived the best base for a NHB expansion,
the American market.

So they had to adapt their marketing plan to the reality
of the American market, which, unlike the Brazilian
or the Japanese one, had zero knowledge of NHB & especially
the ground game.

The audience & the TV dudes had some expectations and
had their head full of myths about traditional disciplines
[kung fu,karate,kenpo,boxing] being the dominant ones.

That´s why the tournament spots HAD to be filled with these
"flashy" dudes, not with wrestlers or sambo dudes or Luta Livre, all
unknown to the American audience.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Not sure what your point is, but by 1993, Ruas would've been a major challenge for Royce. So would Oleg Taktarov, who won a UFC-like tournament in Russia in '93. Like I said, Ken fought 3 days before the event in Japan, and had to deal with jet lag, a totally different altitude and Gracie-favored rules. He had zero experience in fighting someone with a gi, and was fighting someone who had been training since a toddler (again, Ken had 1 year of experience).

The event was a marketing ploy by the Gracies--nothing more, nothing less. I was active in some old NHB boards, and we had this figured out pretty quickly. Rorian was normally called Whorian for this reason.

rorian was worst skilled right? Out of brothers . Helio hated it

 

[mkt]

rorian was worst skilled right? Out of brothers . Helio hated it

Maybe, not sure. But he was probably the best businessman.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Maybe, not sure. But he was probably the best businessman.

not denying that. Him and Bob meyrowitz were starters and savvy

 

[mkt]

it didn't take long.
guys like ken paved the way ufc 5 people hate that fight but it was big evolution of the sport
saku was magical. He beat 4 gracies?

Frank was. genius too.

Yeah, Severn, Ken (rematch), Kimo and even Keith Hackney led to different ways to beat Gracies and similar grapplers.

Severn - Later said that he didn't feel right using GnP on Royce and thought Helio would let Royce get beaten half to death before throwing the towel in...so he didn't do much GnP or any headbutts (legal back then). But it showed how a stronger wrestler could win the position war...too bad Severn didn't know what a triangle choke was.

Kimo - Big strong dude with nothing but high school wrestling and maybe a tiny bit of BJJ (rumor back in the day was that he trained a few times with the Machado brothers) gave Royce fits and kept him from competing the rest of the tourament.. If he cut his hair so Royce couldn't hold it, I really think he could've pounded Royce out.

Hackney - First ever sprawl and brawl attempt. It worked for a whilel, but Hackney was too gunshy to unleash many strikes on Royce.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Yeah, Severn, Ken (rematch), Kimo and even Keith Hackney led to different ways to beat Gracies and similar grapplers.

Severn - Later said that he didn't feel right using GnP on Royce and thought Helio would let Royce get beaten half to death before throwing the towel in...so he didn't do much GnP or any headbutts (legal back then). But it showed how a stronger wrestler could win the position war...too bad Severn didn't know what a triangle choke was.

Kimo - Big strong dude with nothing but high school wrestling and maybe a tiny bit of BJJ (rumor back in the day was that he trained a few times with the Machado brothers) gave Royce fits and kept him from competing the rest of the tourament.. If he cut his hair so Royce couldn't hold it, I really think he could've pounded Royce out.

Hackney - First ever sprawl and brawl attempt. It worked for a whilel, but Hackney was too gunshy to unleash many strikes on Royce.

Yep. Spot on.

hackney hurt royce.