20 Years Ago...

[gono btw]

@ Rings: Fourth Fighting Integration... June 27, 1998.

Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka



One of the best fights of the 1990s, imo.

2 interesting careers... Tamura was already a modern fighter imo, while TK would leave his own mark on Modern MMA.

Enjoy.

 

[InfinityLens]

Where can you even watch old RINGS events?

 

[gono btw]

Where can you even watch old RINGS events?

rutracker, dailymotion...

 

[Brock-B-level-Athlete]

 

[JacJeanFinger]

This is the very first fight for kosaka after inscrutable strategy cost him a huge loss in the rutten fight.

And I don't recall any other rings or UFC or pride fight kosaka won by submission.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

I was mentioning about their rematch in 1999.

 

[pankrat]

@ Rings: Fourth Fighting Integration... June 27, 1998.

Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka



One of the best fights of the 1990s, imo.

2 interesting careers... Tamura was already a modern fighter imo, while TK would leave his own mark on Modern MMA.

Enjoy.

Tamura was ahead of his time in the 90's and his skillset was well adapted to JMMA rules, one of my favourites from that time. But Im not sure if it would work that much against modern competition.
The Japanese MWs that emerged in early 2000s had more weapons in the form of punches and TDs...King Kaz, Yoshida, Misaki or Okami are already what you call modern fighters but Tamura...I think he is clearly a pioneer/old school fighter rather than a modern one

 

[gono btw]

Tamura was ahead of his time in the 90's and his skillset was well adapted to JMMA rules, one of my favourites from that time. But Im not sure if it would work that much against modern competition.
The Japanese MWs that emerged in early 2000s had more weapons in the form of punches and TDs...King Kaz, Yoshida, Misaki or Okami are already what you call modern fighters but Tamura...I think he is clearly a pioneer/old school fighter rather than a modern one

well, the way I see it, fighters like Tamura, Babalu and even Reem [he was surprisingly already a MMA fighter when he made the transition: in his very 1st MMA fights Allistair was already looking for the groundgame, quickly clinching to get the TD and work for a sub more than anything else.]... were already modern ones.

Those guys were already ahead of their time and trying to adquire/showcase a true well-rounded skillset [=someone who can be a threat wherever the fight goes]..

Definitely not ol´schools..

 

[pankrat]

well, the way I see it, fighters like Tamura, Babalu and even Reem [he was surprisingly already a MMA fighter when he made the transition: in his very 1st MMA fights Allistair was already looking for the groundgame, quickly clinching to get the TD and work for a sub more than anything else.]... were already modern ones.

Those guys were already ahead of their time and trying to adquire/showcase a well-rounded true skillset [=someone who can be a threat wherever the fight goes]..

Definitely not ol´schools..

There were many modern fighters by 1999 then.
90s japs as Saku, Gono and Kondo showed to be trycky and aware when dealing with "full contact" agression. Tamura's record out of Rings is mediocre and didnt really evolved late in his career.
Allistair from his early fights was trained to be a complete martial artist but was a KO artist first. He evolved in a much more stronger fighter in every discipline than the kid he was back in the day.
I see Tamura as one of the coolest catch wrestlers from jmma but hard to imagine him having succes against modern fighters under unified mma rules.

 

[gono btw]

There were many modern fighters by 1999 then.
90s japs as Saku, Gono and Kondo showed to be trycky and aware when dealing with "full contact" agression. Tamura's record out of Rings is mediocre and didnt really evolved late in his career.
Allistair from his early fights was trained to be a complete martial artist but was a KO artist first. He evolved in a much more stronger fighter in every discipline than the kid he was back in the day.
I see Tamura as one of the coolest catch wrestlers from jmma but hard to imagine him having succes against modern fighters under unified mma rules.

In Reem´s 1st 18 fights [Rings/2 Hot 2 Handle/M-1 MFC] , he would actually look more for the clinch-then-TD-2-get-a-sub... much more than pure striking...

"Tamura's record out of Rings is mediocre"... You seriouz?

 

[pankrat]

"Tamura's record out of Rings is mediocre"... You seriouz?

Do you think Tamura does well against modern competition with punches to the head allowed standing and gnp?

 

[gono btw]

Do you think Tamura does well against modern competition with punches to the head allowed standing and gnp?

I was questionning your ""Tamura's record out of Rings is mediocre".

U Seriouz?

 

[pankrat]

I was questionning your ""Tamura's record out of Rings is mediocre".

U Seriouz?

His record out of Rings is what? 10-5 with some wins over fighters already in the decline?
Mediocre is not the word probably, what I mean is that Tamura's legacy is widely cemented on matches under particular rule sets, where he was one of the most skilled and entertaining. But Im not that sure about how effective would be Tamura under less restricted mma rules as UFC/Pride.
Suloev or Shamrock were modern fighters, I have more problems watching Tamura in the same line but I could certainly be wrong. I started watching mma a decade ago but I wasnt watching back in the 90's. From my point of view I see Tamura closer to the old -school martial artist from the early days of Japan than the modern fighters that established in early 2000s but I apologize if Im talking as an ignorant here.

 

[gono btw]

His record out of Rings is what? 10-5 with some wins over fighters already in the decline?
Mediocre is not the word probably, what I mean is that Tamura's legacy is widely cemented on matches under particular rule sets, where he was one of the most skilled and entertaining. But Im not that sure about how effective would be Tamura under less restricted mma rules as UFC/Pride.
Suloev or Shamrock were modern fighters, I have more problems watching Tamura in the same line but I could certainly be wrong. I started watching mma a decade ago but I wasnt watching back in the 90's. From my point of view I see Tamura closer to the old -school martial artist from the early days of Japan than the modern fighters that established in early 2000s but I apologize if Im talking as an ignorant here.

In Rings, He was something like 22 W-3 D- 8 L... That´s quite good imo...

wins [@ openweight] over : Miletich,Horn,Henzo Gracie,Valentijn Reem,Mikhail Ilyukhin,Maurice Smith,Volk Han... that´s pretty solid.

losses : legendary Volk Han,Big Nog (a beast in Rings),Babalu (another well-rounded and modern fighter already),Yvel (dangerous striker),Gustavo Machado,Tariel Bitsadze (much bigger, striker)

In the 1990s, truly well-rounded dudes who could threaten on the ground or on the feet...were not that common, and Tamura (just like Suloev) could already be seen as a modern fighter imo.

 

[pankrat]

In Rings, He was something like 22 W-3 D- 8 L... That´s quite good imo...

wins [@ openweight] over : Miletich,Horn,Henzo Gracie,Valentijn Reem,Mikhail Ilyukhin,Maurice Smith,Volk Han... that´s pretty solid.

losses : legendary Volk Han,Big Nog (a beast in Rings),Babalu (another well-rounded and modern fighter already),Yvel (dangerous striker),Gustavo Machado,Tariel Bitsadze (much bigger, striker)

In the 1990s, truly well-rounded dudes who could threaten on the ground or on the feet...were not that common, and Tamura (just like Suloev) could already be seen as a modern fighter imo.

No doubt Tamura's legacy in Rings is great.
The debate here, if any, is if Tamura's skill set would be well adapted to modern fighting. By modern fighting, I mean involving punches to the head allowed from every position. Amar Suloev was more than proven to be legit in this environment. Japanese from the 90's as Kondo or Gono were as well but not every catch wrestler from early Pancrase was imo. It was Tamura? Thats my doubt, and thats why I was refering to his record in promotions without restricted rules, particulary in dealing with punches to the head, which I consider basic aspect of fighting.

 

[gono btw]

No doubt Tamura's legacy in Rings is great.
The debate here, if any, is if Tamura's skill set would be well adapted to modern fighting. By modern fighting, I mean involving punches to the head allowed from every position. Amar Suloev was more than proven to be legit in this environment. Japanese from the 90's as Kondo or Gono were as well. It was Tamura? Thats my doubt, and thats why I was refering to his record in promotions without restricted rules, particulary in dealing with punches to the head, which I consider basic aspect of fighting.

Honestly, Vale Tudo was much less refined... Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...

If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC, half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.

Early Pancrase & RIngs tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their ground game and trying to build a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).

Early Pancrase & Rings showcased the transition from the 1980s/1990s to the 2000s, and how it helped new teams and fighters to improve their game.

In a sense, these 2 org were essentially more modern and more about MMA than Vale Tudo/NHB.

 

[pankrat]

Honestly, Vale Tudo was much less refined... Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...

If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC, half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.

Early Pancrase & RIngs tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their ground game and trying to build a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).

Early Pancrase & Rings showcased the transition from the 1980s/1990s to the 2000s, and how it helped new teams and fighters to improve their game.

In a sense, these 2 org were essentially more modern and more about MMA than Vale Tudo/NHB.

That's an interesting point of view aboutt the evolution in mixed martial arts but...when talking about "modern fighter" I guess it doesn refers to the individual as a martial artist but to his credit at actual fighting, where dealing with punches to the head is a major factor, as gruelling as it may be.

Amateur boxing or savate boxing establish rules trying to enhance the clean, technical aspect of the sport and it's cool and I like it; but if it's needed to wear helmet or its not allowed to kicking the legs or kicking with the shin you are restricting the fighting, regardless if it is more clean, more gruelling or whatever.

 

[gono btw]

That's an interesting point of view aboutt the evolution in mixed martial arts but...when talking about "modern fighter" I guess it doesn refers to the individual as a martial artist but to his credit at actual fighting, where dealing with punches to the head is a major factor, as gruelling as it may be.

Amateur boxing or savate boxing establish rules trying to enhance the clean, technical aspect of the sport and it's cool and I like it; but if it's needed to wear helmet or its not allowed to kicking the legs or kicking with the shin you are restricting the fighting, regardless if it is more clean, more gruelling or whatever.

ok, but when I refer to "modern fighter", it´s about his skillset and its evolution [well-roundedness]..

Tamura being a pretty hard kicker [Frank said he had the hardest ones he ever felt], limited striking couldnt realistically help his game...

By the time he signed with Pride, was already the tail end of his career... Had decent wins there, tough losses too @ openweight...

 

[pankrat]

ok, but when I refer to "modern fighter", it´s about his skillset and its evolution [well-roundedness]..

Tamura being a pretty hard kicker [Frank said he had the hardest ones he ever felt], limited striking couldnt realistically help his game...

By the time he signed with Pride, was already the tail end of his career... Had decent wins there, tough losses too @ openweight...

My vision of him as a fighter is probably unfair as it is hevily based on his performances in Pride, which are not that inspiring imo. He wasnt that old neither, in his early 30's, although its true that he got into heavy missmatches.

I have been watching some fights from him in Rings where actually showed some impressive wrestling and bravery in striking exchanges, so despite the suspicion on his ability dealing with GnP and modern fighters with boxing, which is hard to tell from his Rings tenure, he might be a more competent fighter than I gave him credit for, even under "full contact" mma rules.

Just for curiosity, how do you imagine Kiyoshi Tamura in his prime against Yuki Kondo and Yushin Okami, two of my favourites from Japan in his weightclass?

 

[InfinityLens]

rutracker, dailymotion...

Can you get whole events or just individual fights? When you have to search the fights I can't find anywhere that won't spoil the results.