37 Palestinians and counting dead, 1600 injured bc of Israel

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Are you gonna answer the question though?

The question doesn't seem to fit the scenario. She didn't sacrifice her life for her child. She sacrificed her child for the struggle.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The question doesn't seem to fit the scenario. She didn't sacrifice her life for her child. She sacrificed her child for the struggle.

It does because the mother was being criticized for going off to protest at all but dodge noted

Anyway, it was her brother who brought the baby to the tent. Sure it was foolish but people do foolish things when they've been deprived of dignity and hope and basic necessities. I'm not an uncle yet but if I was and my brother left his baby with me to go off to a protest where he might die, I might do something stupid myself.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

It does because the mother was being criticized for going off to protest at all but dodge noted

Anyway, it was her brother who brought the baby to the tent. Sure it was foolish but people do foolish things when they've been deprived of dignity and hope and basic necessities. I'm not an uncle yet but if I was and my brother left his baby with me to go off to a protest where he might die, I might do something stupid myself.

I never said a word about the mother going off to protest and I didn't dodge anything. All I've said is that bringing that infant to the area of a violent protest was inexcusably foolish. And it was.

I don't care about all the excuses of no hope, etc. If he agreed to stay home and babysit the infant so mom could go protest, then stay home with the infant.

And if you were in that situation and did the same, it would be very stupid of you, which you seem to admit.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I never said a word about the mother going off to protest and I didn't dodge anything. All I've said is that bringing that infant to the area of a violent protest was inexcusably foolish. And it was.

I don't care about all the excuses of no hope, etc. If he agreed to stay home and babysit the infant so mom could go protest, then stay home with the infant.

And if you were in that situation and did the same, it would be very stupid of you, which you seem to admit.

Okay fine, pat yourself on the back from the comfort of your home I guess.

 

[Gunny]

As far as living under apartheid, which I find a silly comparison, given the extensive range of civil rights accorded to Israeli Arabs, I'd say the Palestinians should admit defeat, stop trying to conquer Israel, admit that Israel has a right to exist, and negotiate in good faith. That worked quite well for Egypt and Jordan.

Exactly correct. If you have any genuine concern for these people then this is the only reasonable stance.

On the other hand, if you don’t care whether they all die as Islamic pawns in a futile clash they can never win then you’ll continue to encourage this senseless conflict.

 

[Islam Imamate]

As far as living under apartheid, which I find a silly comparison, given the extensive range of civil rights accorded to Israeli Arabs, I'd say the Palestinians should admit defeat, stop trying to conquer Israel, admit that Israel has a right to exist, and negotiate in good faith. That worked quite well for Egypt and Jordan.

Speaking of good faith, why do people always deflect to the Israeli Arabs when the truth of Israeli Apartheid is brought up? No one is ever referring to the Israeli Arabs, they face their own challenges but its clear that when I and others referring to the Apartheid over there we're referring to the occupied territories, especially Gaza. Its such a disingenuous ploy.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Speaking of good faith, why do people always deflect to the Israeli Arabs when the truth of Israeli Apartheid is brought up? No one is ever referring to the Israeli Arabs, they face their own challenges but its clear that when I and others referring to the Apartheid over there we're referring to the occupied territories, especially Gaza. Its such a disingenuous ploy.

It isn't disingenuous at all, nor is it a deflection. The point is that whatever racial issues Israel has, they do not extend to systematically depriving racial minorities of their civil rights. Israel offers more extensive rights to its Arab citizens than most, if not all, Arab states do. That fatally undercuts the notion that it is an apartheid state.

The problem remains that there is a sizable minority of Arabs who not only do not swear fealty to Israel but do not even recognize its right to exist. As non-citizens, of course Israel does not grant them the rights of citizens. Calling that apartheid is to me the disingenuous deflection.

Whatever civil rights Palestinians ought to have, such as suffrage, ought to come from the PA, which is unfortunately a shitty little gangster government that refuses to hold elections.

The best way forward is a two state solution, which is consistently rejected by the PA, which hasn't even gone as far as recognizing Israel's right to exist after seventy years. I think they had much more leverage in the late 90s and early 2000s than they do now. If they don't attempt to compromise soon, they won't have many bargaining chips left at all.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Exactly correct. If you have any genuine concern for these people then this is the only reasonable stance.

On the other hand, if you don’t care whether they all die as Islamic pawns in a futile clash they can never win then you’ll continue to encourage this senseless conflict.

Pawns is exactly right. It is unfortunate, but the Palestinians were very useful over the decades as a thorn in Israel's side. Now that the other Arabs states are becoming more worried about other threats, they are being left high and dry. No one is on their side and their closest neighbor is a mortal enemy. Time to hoist the white flag and get the best deal they can, which isn't likely to be as much as they'd have gotten 25 years ago.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It isn't disingenuous at all, nor is it a deflection. The point is that whatever racial issues Israel has, they do not extend to systematically depriving racial minorities of their civil rights. Israel offers more extensive rights to its Arab citizens than most, if not all, Arab states do. That fatally undercuts the notion that it is an apartheid state.

I already said that I'm not talking about the Arab citizens of Israel so not sure why you keep going on about them.

The problem remains that there is a sizable minority of Arabs who not only do not swear fealty to Israel but do not even recognize its right to exist. As non-citizens, of course Israel does not grant them the rights of citizens. Calling that apartheid is to me the disingenuous deflection.

Whatever civil rights Palestinians ought to have, such as suffrage, ought to come from the PA, which is unfortunately a shitty little gangster government that refuses to hold elections.

Its very clearly Apartheid. The Israeli government is in control of the occupied territories and applies a radically different set of laws to the occupied territories as evidenced by the fact that they try the Palestinians in military courts.

If they're not going to grant them citizenship or a state they are keeping them in a state of Apartheid; under the thumb of Israel but not part of it.

The best way forward is a two state solution, which is consistently rejected by the PA, which hasn't even gone as far as recognizing Israel's right to exist after seventy years. I think they had much more leverage in the late 90s and early 2000s than they do now. If they don't attempt to compromise soon, they won't have many bargaining chips left at all.

Its been rejected by Israel as well, they've never agreed to full sovereignty and statehood for Palestine and most Israeli government officials reject the right of the Palestinians to their own state.

In addition, Abbas recognized Israel's right to exist in 2011. What the Palestinians are more reluctant to do is recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. Israelis don't want to recognize Palestine yet insist the Palestinians recognize their state and when they do they move the goal posts and ask they recognize their right to exist as a Jewish state.

The game of the Israelis is obvious; stall the peace process as much as possible so as to allow the settlement project to expand as much as possible so as to take as much of the arable land of Palestine as possible until a Palestinian state is no longer viable. I think they've already succeeded, the two state solution is no longer viable at this point and people have quietly come to realize this.

 

[salamander]

Why do you get to assert what they should and shouldn't do? Like I said earlier, some people are willing to give up quite a bit for their cause, when you look at the squalor of the Palestinians its not hard to imagine why someone would feel that way. There were ids at the Amristar massacre as well, was it the fault of the Indians for allowing them there or the British for opening fire on unarmed civilians?

The rest makes more sense.

I can't imagine living under an occupation. I get antsy when i have to wait longer than five minutes in the line-up at the weed dispensary.

From what I've read and watched, the Palestinians have no prospects at all. Crappy (imo) leadership aside, no human being can reasonably expect to live in those conditions without getting a bit squirrelly

But any sane Palestinian should know that the IDF doesn't play, and has absolutely no compunction about shooting, bombing or beating the shit out of any man, woman or baby.

Years ago they purposely ran over a white American college girl with a frickin' bulldozer. They used white phosphorous ordinance in their artillery rounds over a residential area during one of the wars past. They used cluster bombs, and human shields. As desperate as the Palestinians are, i It absolutely boggles my mind that you would bring an infant anywhere near a place where the IDF is- for any reason other than clicks.

 

[salamander]

That's certainly fair historically, but it also depends on asking Muslims or Christians in Lebanon.

Not that Lebanese or Syrian or Egyptian Christians are fans of Israel either, most are not, but a lot more will see the danger of Saudi Arabia and Iran, who are active in destroying their ancient communities in Syria and Egypt through hidden hand payments from the Saudi's, Iranians, and Turkish payments to ISIS, other radical groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and other bad actors willing to use community intimidation and when that fails open violence to cause trouble.

Cyprus is another troubling place to look, depending which side of Cyprus one ended up on.

Israel is also unfair to Muslims and Christians (arbitrary taxes, harassment, bureaucratic red tape) but, if you were a Christian would you rather live in or under the aegis of Israel or are most of the neighbors not that great?

Wait a sec, the Iranians have made deals with ISIS?

 

[squeezewax]

There will never be peace because the Palestinians don't want it. They are happy receiving millions of dollars and other aid every year, much easier than trying to run a country. They've been offered deals and turned them down, they don't want peace only violence.
They way so many in the West are fooled is beyond belief.
Israel was protecting it's border, nothing wrong with that. If the fence had been breached the orders were to kidnap soldiers and to kill as many Jews as possible. Whats wrong with firing guns at these bastards doing that?

 

[Victor Maitland]

Cheers , Don !
so much for the MAGA stuff

 

[Islam Imamate]

Wait a sec, the Iranians have made deals with ISIS?

I think in the case of the Iranians he meant their support for other radical groups like Hezbollah and the Iraqi Shiite militias. Don't know how bad those guys are with Christians though. The Iraqi Shiite militias have a reputation for nasty reprisals against Sunnis(though apparently it wasn't as bad as expected in the wake of the fall of ISIS) but I've never heard of the Shiite groups going after Christians.

In fact I think Hezbollah even has a Christian brigade among their ranks and a popular Christian Lebanese singer, Julia Boutros, even composed these songs in honor of Hezbollah and their war of resistance against Israel in 2006. She donated the proceeds($3 million, three times the original goal) to the families of the Hezbollah fighters who died in addition to the civilian families affected by that conflicted in South Lebanon.


So @InternetHero should not underestimate the closeness between some of the Christian Arabs and their Muslim neighbors, in many cases they side with them over Israel. Which is not to say everything is fine and dandy over there between Arab Christians and Muslims either to be fair.

 

[salamander]

I think in the case of the Iranians he meant their support for other radical groups like Hezbollah and the Iraqi Shiite militias. Don't know how bad those guys are with Christians though. The Iraqi Shiite militias have a reputation for nasty reprisals against Sunnis(though apparently it wasn't as bad as expected in the wake of the fall of ISIS) but I've never heard of the Shiite groups going after Christians.

In fact I think Hezbollah even has a Christian brigade among their ranks and a popular Christian Lebanese singer, Julia Boutros, even composed these songs in honor of Hezbollah and their war of resilience against Israel in 2006. She donated the proceeds($3 million, three times the original goal) to the families of the Hezbollah fighters who died in addition to the civilian families affected by that conflicted in South Lebanon.


So @InternetHero should not underestimate the closeness between some of the Christian Arabs and their Muslim neighbors, in many cases they side with them over Israel. Which is not to say everything is fine and dandy over there between Arab Christians and Muslims either to be fair.

Very informative. Thank you for this perspective.

 

[trolldum]

In fact I think Hezbollah even has a Christian brigade among their ranks and a popular Christian Lebanese singer, Julia Boutros, even composed these songs in honor of Hezbollah and their war of resistance against Israel in 2006. She donated the proceeds($3 million, three times the original goal) to the families of the Hezbollah fighters who died in addition to the civilian families affected by that conflicted in South Lebanon.

Maronite militias in South Lebanon sided with Israel in every conflict in last 40 years. After they were defeated by Hezbollah, there was nobody authentic left to represent them. Thousands of them are living in Israel now.

First major conflict was, surprise, surprise, against Palestinians that settled in their region, basically occupied it and used to attack Israel. Back when they were also trying to overthrow the government of Jordan.

Coalition of largest Sunni and second-largest Maronite political blocks blamed Hezbollah for the conflict against Israel. But largest Maronite party was with Shia against Israel. They are divided over the issue.

In Israel, Arab Christians have more positive view of the country than Arab Muslims. Both would rather live in Israel than in Palestine.

Survey: 60% of Arab Israelis have positive view of state

“The bottom line is there is more identification with Israel than with a possible Palestinian state,” said one of the survey's directors.

A survey of Arab citizens of Israel has found more positive attitudes to the state and its institutions than was previously thought.

Sixty percent surveyed said they had a favorable view of the state, while 37% said their view was unfavorable.

The poll, whose findings were released Wednesday, was conducted by the Israel office of the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung, the Konrad Adenauer Program for Jewish-Arab Cooperation at Tel Aviv University’s Dayan Center and Keevoon, a research, strategy and communications company.

The poll, conducted last month, surveyed 876 citizens of Israel and 125 east Jerusalem permanent residents. It had a margin of error of 2.25%.

Broken down by religion, 49% of Muslims view the state favorably compared with 48% unfavorably, while 61% of Christians view it favorably compared to 33% unfavorably.

Ninety-four percent of Druse view the state favorably compared to 6% unfavorably.

In the view of Michael Borchard, Israel director of the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung, one of the most significant findings came in response to the question posed to citizens, “Which term best describes you?” The largest number, 28%, replied “Israeli Arab” while 11% said “Israeli,” 13% said “Arab citizen of Israel” and 2% said “Israeli Muslim.” Only 15% said “Palestinian” while 4% said “Palestinian in Israel,” 3% said “Palestinian citizen in Israel” and 2% said “Israeli Palestinian.”

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/S...b-Israelis-have-positive-view-of-state-506150

 

[cincymma79]

It does because the mother was being criticized for going off to protest at all but dodge noted

Anyway, it was her brother who brought the baby to the tent. Sure it was foolish but people do foolish things when they've been deprived of dignity and hope and basic necessities. I'm not an uncle yet but if I was and my brother left his baby with me to go off to a protest where he might die, I might do something stupid myself.

Oh my god with this shit
Seriously fuck off with his
Can you draw us a diagram of anything a Palestinian does that is their fault? Rape? Well they’re oppressed so they rape. Murder? Well they’re oppressed so the murder. Almost 100% if their population support horrific sharia law shit? Well they’re oppressed.

 

[InternetHero]

I think in the case of the Iranians he meant their support for other radical groups like Hezbollah and the Iraqi Shiite militias. Don't know how bad those guys are with Christians though. The Iraqi Shiite militias have a reputation for nasty reprisals against Sunnis(though apparently it wasn't as bad as expected in the wake of the fall of ISIS) but I've never heard of the Shiite groups going after Christians.

In fact I think Hezbollah even has a Christian brigade among their ranks and a popular Christian Lebanese singer, Julia Boutros, even composed these songs in honor of Hezbollah and their war of resistance against Israel in 2006. She donated the proceeds($3 million, three times the original goal) to the families of the Hezbollah fighters who died in addition to the civilian families affected by that conflicted in South Lebanon.


So @InternetHero should not underestimate the closeness between some of the Christian Arabs and their Muslim neighbors, in many cases they side with them over Israel. Which is not to say everything is fine and dandy over there between Arab Christians and Muslims either to be fair.

I don't doubt it, as for the reasons, perhaps they are positive and negative.

On the positive side surely before the Saudi's started to export explicitly fascist notions, many ancient Christian and Muslim communities have lived together in fairly good faith for many centuries.

Add to that, most Muslims are not into the violence and radicalism, because many know Allah does not want to wipe people from the earth for vindictive and stupid human reasons (tax them? perhaps). As well, most have to see what Al-Qaeda in Iraq and ISIS did to communities and have to freak out a bit.

Anyone who wonders about evil in the world ought to read about what AQ did to people. Nothing holy about that, they were looking to other spirits.

I kind of digress though.

The negative in short may be that Christians duly know they are better off having the non-moderate Muslims seeing them as loyal supports of Nationalism, and the same God of Abraham, against a foreign enemy. Lest what happened in Bethlehem repeat itself.

I'm painting in very broad strokes though, and hopefully in good faith.

I really do not know the nuisances, and I am not that interested. Not from a sense of apathy, quite the opposite. Everything about how much everyone hates the Jews, or the Muslims, or the Jews, Muslims, Christians on whatever side they take on Israel is really disheartening.

Give peace a chance, believers have far bigger enemies in the land of the living than each other, but get fooled into fighting over 10% when their real foes would dispose of 90%.

 

[InternetHero]

Wait a sec, the Iranians have made deals with ISIS?

I did not mean to indicate that, and on reading my post again, I do not see that.

Which part was confusing? I'll try to clarify if necessary.

 

[salamander]

I did not mean to indicate that, and on reading my post again, I do not see that.

Which part was confusing? I'll try to clarify if necessary.

Not that Lebanese or Syrian or Egyptian Christians are fans of Israel either, most are not, but a lot more will see the danger of Saudi Arabia and Iran, who are active in destroying their ancient communities in Syria and Egypt through hidden hand payments from the Saudi's, Iranians, and Turkish payments to ISIS, other radical groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and other bad actors willing to use community intimidation and when that fails open violence to cause trouble.

I know the shi/sunni divide may not be as uniformly stark as it is played up to be, but the bolded part gave me a pause. I'm not too confident in my knowledge of this dynamic, which is why I asked.