80/20, honey hole, 411, mondern leg locks? I need help!

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I've been out of the loop for a couple of year's. I was playing around with my son and went 50/50 on him (I'm the self proclaimed king here, IMO)

He transition from several different positions, tapping me at will with heal hooks and toe holds (my gout foot, jackass!) I had NO offensive.

Is the 50/50 out dated? He (smart ass) said to look up "modern legs." I did, it's a bit overwhelming. It appears leg locking has gone the way of the guard? Meaning, many, many versions, butterfly, spider, worm, etc.

I also got the impression in no-gi people pull leg locks vs pulling guard? Are leg locks taking priority over the closed guard in no-gi?

BTW, I'm speaking no-gi here.
 
I've been out of the loop for a couple of year's. I was playing around with my son and went 50/50 on him (I'm the self proclaimed king here, IMO)

He transition from several different positions, tapping me at will with heal hooks and toe holds (my gout foot, jackass!) I had NO offensive.

Is the 50/50 out dated? He (smart ass) said to look up "modern legs." I did, it's a bit overwhelming. It appears leg locking has gone the way of the guard? Meaning, many, many versions, butterfly, spider, worm, etc.

I also got the impression in no-gi people pull leg locks vs pulling guard? Are leg locks taking priority over the closed guard in no-gi?

BTW, I'm speaking no-gi here.

The modern no gi game is really heavy on leg locks, at least if Hh are allow.
 
I've been out of the loop for a couple of year's. I was playing around with my son and went 50/50 on him (I'm the self proclaimed king here, IMO)

He transition from several different positions, tapping me at will with heal hooks and toe holds (my gout foot, jackass!) I had NO offensive.

Is the 50/50 out dated? He (smart ass) said to look up "modern legs." I did, it's a bit overwhelming. It appears leg locking has gone the way of the guard? Meaning, many, many versions, butterfly, spider, worm, etc.

I also got the impression in no-gi people pull leg locks vs pulling guard? Are leg locks taking priority over the closed guard in no-gi?

BTW, I'm speaking no-gi here.

Since you're the DVDreview guy. I recommend downloading the digitsu app and downloading some of the leg lock apps. I've downloaded the ashi garami fundamentals and Roli Delgado's illegal leg locks. I've been drilling the crap out of my ashi. From the ashi you move from position to position. It's a good app and some good instructionals.
 
I've been out of the loop for a couple of year's. I was playing around with my son and went 50/50 on him (I'm the self proclaimed king here, IMO)

He transition from several different positions, tapping me at will with heal hooks and toe holds (my gout foot, jackass!) I had NO offensive.

Is the 50/50 out dated? He (smart ass) said to look up "modern legs." I did, it's a bit overwhelming. It appears leg locking has gone the way of the guard? Meaning, many, many versions, butterfly, spider, worm, etc.

I also got the impression in no-gi people pull leg locks vs pulling guard? Are leg locks taking priority over the closed guard in no-gi?

BTW, I'm speaking no-gi here.
To answer your questions in order:
50/50 isn't obsolete, but it's rightly considered worse than other leglocking positions where it's not... 50/50, and instead you have the advantage. Particularly people are seeking out outside ashi garami and the 4-11 (or the honey hole, inside sankaku, whatever). When you're in 50/50, most modern guys want to transition to either outside ashi, where they can't defend their leg with the other leg, or 80/20, where your knee is out so they can't heelhook you. Most people don't seek it out anymore although you do see battles fought there when that's where they end up.

Yes, leglocking has diversified and gained a lot of technical development like guard work. There are several main positions you should acquaint yourself with: Ashi garami (basic leglock control), outside ashi garami, and 4-11/honey hole/inside sankaku are the 3 most important. There's also cross ashi garami, ushiro ashi garami, butterfly ashi, and others - but they're more used as transitory positions.

A lot of no gi guys do favor leg locks as a primary method of attack, and they use shin guard and butterfly guard to enter into them. Closed guard is more rare but is still very powerful, partly because it's really hard to get leglocked while you have it!

The Grapplearts Modern Leglocking system thingie is the most comprehensive instructional on the modern system I've seen so far, but I've heard great things about Roli Delgado's Illegal Leglocks, and Reilly Bodycomb's No Kurtka Vol 2 is cheap as hell and will help with your submission mechanics and escapes (but not go as in depth on positioning).
 
Thanks for the info guys! I'm going to study up on the danaher death squad. I have Rob Biernacki BJJ Formula. I've only been able to get through the first dvd. I thought Ryan Hall talk a lot, but damn! Maybe, if I'm out for surgery again I'll get a new leg lock dvd? I have Dean Lister dvd (just found.)

I'm 51, with four neck and one back surgery. I roll once a week with my son (gi.) I was taken by surprise when we started rolling no-gi.
I was hesitant, afraid of the constant neck control. I'll continue to roll with the gi. No-gi we'll start in a lock lock position, go from there.
 
To answer your questions in order:
50/50 isn't obsolete, but it's rightly considered worse than other leglocking positions where it's not... 50/50, and instead you have the advantage. Particularly people are seeking out outside ashi garami and the 4-11 (or the honey hole, inside sankaku, whatever). When you're in 50/50, most modern guys want to transition to either outside ashi, where they can't defend their leg with the other leg, or 80/20, where your knee is out so they can't heelhook you. Most people don't seek it out anymore although you do see battles fought there when that's where they end up.

Yes, leglocking has diversified and gained a lot of technical development like guard work. There are several main positions you should acquaint yourself with: Ashi garami (basic leglock control), outside ashi garami, and 4-11/honey hole/inside sankaku are the 3 most important. There's also cross ashi garami, ushiro ashi garami, butterfly ashi, and others - but they're more used as transitory positions.

A lot of no gi guys do favor leg locks as a primary method of attack, and they use shin guard and butterfly guard to enter into them. Closed guard is more rare but is still very powerful, partly because it's really hard to get leglocked while you have it!

The Grapplearts Modern Leglocking system thingie is the most comprehensive instructional on the modern system I've seen so far, but I've heard great thingsw about Roli Delgado's Illegal Leglocks, and Reilly Bodycomb's No Kurtka Vol 2 is cheap as hell and will help with your submission mechanics and escapes (but not go as in depth on positioning).

I've noticed something of a minor resurgence with 50/50 recently in no-gi since it's become such an advanced position in the gi. Felipe Pena vs. Gordon Ryan at ADCC and Gianni Grippo used it to great effect vs. Justin Rader the other day at FTW Pro. I think you're going to see more people figure out how to integrate 50/50 leg attacks with the standard ashi garami attacks, since 50/50 is basically ashi with both legs over.
 
I've been out of the loop for a couple of year's. I was playing around with my son and went 50/50 on him (I'm the self proclaimed king here, IMO)

He transition from several different positions, tapping me at will with heal hooks and toe holds (my gout foot, jackass!) I had NO offensive.

Is the 50/50 out dated? He (smart ass) said to look up "modern legs." I did, it's a bit overwhelming. It appears leg locking has gone the way of the guard? Meaning, many, many versions, butterfly, spider, worm, etc.

I also got the impression in no-gi people pull leg locks vs pulling guard? Are leg locks taking priority over the closed guard in no-gi?

BTW, I'm speaking no-gi here.

First thing, pet peeve: 'heal hook' is not a thing. 'heel hooks' are.

As for your question...there's a ton to learn. I would not say 50/50 is outdated, but it's certainly not the preferred attacking position for most leg lockers just because (as the name implies) it's fairly equal. Using the Danaher terminology, I'd say the hierarchy of preferred positions is inside sankaku > outside ashi > ashi garami > 50/50. And those 4 constitute the main leg entanglements you need to know about. There's not simple map or system of how to approach all those, as you correctly noted it's a lot like asking 'how do I play open guard'. I'd advise starting with learning how you need to maintain and defend each of those positions, as that will give you a solid grounding for applying the finishes later on (it'll also save you from your son). Unfortunately there's not a lot of great material out there, a lot of what you see on YouTube is total crap. Hayden's 80/20 DVD has some good defensive ideas as a starting point, though I don't buy everything he says. I learned most of what I know by chasing DDS seminars and just woodshedding it a lot with @ijustwannasurf. It's become a huge part of the no-gi game (bigger than closed guard for sure, and possibly superseding sweeping from open guard), so don't expect it to be fast or easy to learn. But it's a hell of a lot of fun.
 
I learned most of what I know by chasing DDS seminars and just woodshedding it a lot with @ijustwannasurf. It's become a huge part of the no-gi game (bigger than closed guard for sure, and possibly superseding sweeping from open guard), so don't expect it to be fast or easy to learn. But it's a hell of a lot of fun.

It's a ton of fun. I'm about 2.5 years into putting serious time and effort into this stuff, and it really is like learning a whole new martial art while trying to combine it into one you already know. Super difficult but very rewarding.

I think a really fun aspect that we haven't seen too much of yet is a more more seamless integration of heel hooks with sweeping, passing, and kimuras, triangles, amrbars, darces, guillotines, etc. We've seen some of this but there's a lot more room.
 
It's a ton of fun. I'm about 2.5 years into putting serious time and effort into this stuff, and it really is like learning a whole new martial art while trying to combine it into one you already know. Super difficult but very rewarding.

I think a really fun aspect that we haven't seen too much of yet is a more more seamless integration of heel hooks with sweeping, passing, and kimuras, triangles, amrbars, darces, guillotines, etc. We've seen some of this but there's a lot more room.

how would you chain upper body subs with Hh? Any particular entry I could look around to chain them together?
 
how would you chain upper body subs with Hh? Any particular entry I could look around to chain them together?
Oliver Taza is a brown belt under Firas Zahabi and John Danaher. Do yourself a favor and check out these matches. It's really clear when he does it.




 
how would you chain upper body subs with Hh? Any particular entry I could look around to chain them together?
Easiest entry for me is Kimura or Americana from side, then when they open up and move, you can backstep right into honey hole
 
It's a ton of fun. I'm about 2.5 years into putting serious time and effort into this stuff, and it really is like learning a whole new martial art while trying to combine it into one you already know. Super difficult but very rewarding.

I think a really fun aspect that we haven't seen too much of yet is a more more seamless integration of heel hooks with sweeping, passing, and kimuras, triangles, amrbars, darces, guillotines, etc. We've seen some of this but there's a lot more room.
I just started integrating this stuff about 2 months ago. So much to learn. The well is deep.
 
how would you chain upper body subs with Hh? Any particular entry I could look around to chain them together?
I know I sent those Taza videos so I'll try and explain a little bit more. So John Danaher is always saying "use your whole body to attack their whole body" which in a way is not anything new. And using leg locks to help your sweeping and passing isn't exactly anything new either.

But the way we're seeing it done is new and improving all the time. So Eddie Cummings' whole thing was always "I attack the legs because people leave them open" and when people like Sergio Hernandez, Denny Prokopos, or Mike Davila protect their legs, Eddie will take a 2-on-1 and front headlock and move to the back.

Garry Tonon, Gordon Ryan, and Oliver Taza all display moving between upper body and lower body attacks very well. For some reason the way that Taza does it looks the cleanest to me in terms of explaining it. In sub-only, I would say the major control positions are the seabelt grip, front headlock (guillotine/darce) style grips, kimura grips, and ashi garamis (not the exact position but all of the entagled leg positions where one of their legs is trapped between yours)

Oliver Taza does the best job I think of tying together those exact 4 positions in almost every match, and he's the person I show people when I talk about how clean moving from the uper to lower body can look. Partially because Taza never stops moving, and even touches and goes a lot of sub attempts, and so you really get to see him bounce back and forth between all these upper and lower body controls more than the rest of the major sub-only guys.

I guess that sort of turned into a Taza dickriding post but hopefully those matches I posted made sense. Some major lower to upper body transitions are the leg drag or knee slice to saddle, and the saddle back to the kneeslice. If you don't know any others, those are 3 good ones.
 
@DVD review guy definitely check this out: For the most up to date leg lock stuff that looks at it as position before submission with a hierarchy then you really won't find better: http://www.grapplearts.com/modern-leglock-formula/

To answer your 50/50 question, I would not say it's entirely outdated. The way of finishing heel hooks is different and much better than even 5 years ago. The days of twisting laterally and moving the heel 'across your chest' are gone, and now the best way is to bring your shoulder back to crunch their toes towards their butt, and then bridge into the side of their knee if needed. This way of finishing basically kills their ability to spin out to escape. Before, when we twisted, them spinning out of the escape was easier of them. We also know now how to basically immobilize and pin their hips. If you watch the Danaher guys heel hook people, the guys on defense maybe at most get half a spin or one spin before they tap. Usually no spin.

So to tie this back to the 50/50, that position made a lot of since when you needed to twist to finish, because both of your legs being outside of their hip could help slow down their rotation. Now that we can better pin the hips and better finish the heel hook, it's not as helpful. The inside/inverted heel hook is by far the most powerful leg lock and the 50/50 was and is still a great way to get it. But the 50/50 is a knowledge based position. Whoever knows more or is better at it usually wins. With heel hooks now the knowledge is so high that the 50/50 is basically a shootout. That wasn't so 5-10 years ago.

I think there's almost always a time and place for basically everything including the 50/50. I play it sometimes but for the most part the 4-11/saddle/honeyhole/inside sankaku (whatever the fuck people are calling it) is the top dog position for the inside/inverted heel hook. It's also the best leg entanglement for switching back to passing, taking the back, or even using the position to take darces or arm triangles.

Easiest entry for me is Kimura or Americana from side, then when they open up and move, you can backstep right into honey hole
Do you ever do that north south kimura (say their right arm) and if you're getting resistance on the grip breaking, you step your left leg in between their legs and hop down with your right knee right below their right knee and you're right in the saddle/4-11?
 
@DVD review guy


Do you ever do that north south kimura (say their right arm) and if you're getting resistance on the grip breaking, you step your left leg in between their legs and hop down with your right knee right below their right knee and you're right in the saddle/4-11?

Yes but its dangerous vs scramblers. I mainly hit it off side or sitting on their head if I can get a grip break. I had a pretty big lead in a match in competition and was just riding out in the bottom when the dude went for this transition and put me in a lot of trouble. After that I incorporated it into my game and have used it in competition a few times.
 
Using the leg drag and the backstep pass as your nexus points.

A detail that made a huge difference for me on my backstep was posting on my opponent's near collarbone or neck and then keeping my backstep leg engaged so that my hips are off the ground. This kills whatever reverse half attacks your opponent has, creates more space for a leg entry, and makes the re-step more dynamic such that you can often step over right into mount, take the back, or find a kimura on the transition.
 
A detail that made a huge difference for me on my backstep was posting on my opponent's near collarbone or neck and then keeping my backstep leg engaged so that my hips are off the ground. This kills whatever reverse half attacks your opponent has, creates more space for a leg entry, and makes the re-step more dynamic such that you can often step over right into mount, take the back, or find a kimura on the transition.
As you're stepping into the 4-11/saddle? Another thing it makes harder is the darce. I used to go ahead and grab the leg when back stepping into it and you're opening up your elbow and guys will snag you neck fast. That simple collarbone post makes that harder.
 
As you're stepping into the 4-11/saddle? Another thing it makes harder is the darce. I used to go ahead and grab the leg when back stepping into it and you're opening up your elbow and guys will snag you neck fast. That simple collarbone post makes that harder.

It's a hub position where the saddle is one option. I really like it because it engages your opponent right at the crux of the high/low game (the space between the knee and hip). So, you will always have one of four attacks to choose from depending on where your hip is in relation to your opponent: scoop your knee under his knee and enter the saddle; shrimp high and kick out for the backstep pass; do a hard re-step into 3/4 mount (or directly try and take the back); re-step and try to beat your opponent to an undehook or kimura grip. The active posting on the collar bone effectively pins your opponent while you assess and/or defeat any pesky shin-shin elevator.
 
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