Law Affirmative Action Abolished: U.S Supreme Court Outlaws Racial Discrimination In College Admissions.

Previous investigation into the subject of discrimination has found no evidence of discrimination only because the investigation was not objective. There is an incentive to keep the status quo.

And you point to extracurriculars as if the Asian students DON'T have any - that they are only test scores and grades. But that's not true at all.

These students that are suing also have all the extracurriculars. PLUS higher test scores on average .

So logic dictates if you eliminate extracurrciular, test scores and grades, the only other deciding factor is: race.

An Asian student has to have better scores than black people, Latinos AND white people.

If that is not discrimination, then what is?

Your analysis is flawed because you're weighing all extracurriculars as equally attractive. As I've said in other posts - if you have 10 kids with the piano on their application then the 4-10th people are less attractive because you already have stronger representatives at that instrument. Whereas if you have another 4 applicants with the drum, you might take slightly less academically qualified students with drums because you want piano and drum, not just all piano.

Also, what I've been reading suggests that schools want applicants with really amazing talent in a few areas. These schools get so many elite academic applicants that they can pass on many of them in order to offer opportunities to talent in other areas.

Additionally, all of these things are measured against how you achieved them. If someone has great SAT scores but they've spent all of their energy on pursuits that bolster SAT performance or they've been tutored/coached to maximize those scores. it's less attractive than someone with slightly lower SAT scores but who achieved them without the additional assistance.

What's more incredible - a well coached basketball player sinking 10 free throws in a row or someone who's never played the game sinking 8 out of 10 on their first try?

All of that appears to matter in academic admissions because it adds context and nuance to raw numbers. People want to reduce it to raw numbers and race when that just suggests that they don't really understand the criteria that schools are applying to their admissions decisions.
 
This claim makes zero sense. If you have 2 applicants, and all else is equal, but you are then allowed to consider race, which effectively becomes the "tiebreaker", how is race not the deciding factor?

Because it's highly unlikely that all else is equal. It's extremely unlikely that both applicants have the same economic background, attended the same high school and took the same classes, went through the same trials and tribulations, overcame the same hurdles and pursued the same out of school interests.

And if you have 2 extremely talented yet identical applicants then you wouldn't be choosing between them. You'd take both and not admit less attractive candidates. There's no upper or lower bound on how many students they can admit. They can admit 5000 one year and 6000 the next, if they wished.
 
I don't know which alternate reality you're from, but ALL the Asian-Americans I knew from school had jobs, and NONE of of them had their college tuition or any other expenses paid for by their parents.

What, do you think they're trust fund babies or something? o_O

That's interesting because most of the Asian-American kids I knew in high school that went on to top tier colleges came from upper middle class backgrounds and definitely didn't have jobs in high school, unless those jobs were selected to make their college applications more attractive.

Are you referring to kids you knew in high school or the ones you met in college?
 
What's more incredible - a well coached basketball player sinking 10 free throws in a row or someone who's never played the game sinking 8 out of 10 on their first try?
The second is more incredible but I would imagine the basketball coach whether he's Kzyaekfpoiej or however you spell his name at Duke, Popovich for the Spurs so on and so forth would take the first guy... ESPECIALLY if that first guy is a throwback low post center.
 
Move along, nothing to see here. And how does one acquire a 5.3 gpa? I thought 4.0 was the limit, but i never breached a 3.2, so what do I know?

Some schools have different tracks with weighted GPAs.

I'm assuming this school has 3 tracks.

If you're on the lowest rack your max GPA is a 4.0 and the highest track is a 6.0

The logic is the kid who's taking Physics and Calculus with a B+ average should not be graded lowered against somebody in the same grade taking Earth Sciences and Algebra 2 with an A-
 
to paraphrase Panamaican, Asians (and to a good degree whites as well but ESPECIALLY asians) have treated college admissions as if it was a set of instructions to a piece of furniture: take all honors course, score high on these 3 test, play these 2 instruments = auto enrollment in any college anywhere.

and when thats not the way it works it pisses everybody off because thats the lie highschools and educators have been preddling for the last 50 years. I was a good student in school but i wasnt what you'd call ELITE TIER. my GPA sat at 3.0, i played sports but wasnt distinguished in them, and my extracurriculars were JROTC, CAP, and working at a golf course to fund my fishing habit. Hell, my SAT score was only 1300 something (back in 99 when 1600 was the money shot) although my ACT was extremely high...i got accepted to University of fricking Chicago. maybe it was because i was black (i actually still am) or maybe it was because i play the Bassoon. in that case, i honestly think i beat out a bunch of other students because i had a talent that WASNT over represented. You play the piano? awesome, so do half of the people applying. the other half has violin or cello. Bassoon? MY MAN!

Ladies prefer Bassoon players anyway. we got better fingering skills.
 
to paraphrase Panamaican, Asians (and to a good degree whites as well but ESPECIALLY asians) have treated college admissions as if it was a set of instructions to a piece of furniture: take all honors course, score high on these 3 test, play these 2 instruments = auto enrollment in any college anywhere.

and when thats not the way it works it pisses everybody off because thats the lie highschools and educators have been preddling for the last 50 years. I was a good student in school but i wasnt what you'd call ELITE TIER. my GPA sat at 3.0, i played sports but wasnt distinguished in them, and my extracurriculars were JROTC, CAP, and working at a golf course to fund my fishing habit. Hell, my SAT score was only 1300 something (back in 99 when 1600 was the money shot) although my ACT was extremely high...i got accepted to University of fricking Chicago. maybe it was because i was black (i actually still am) or maybe it was because i play the Bassoon. in that case, i honestly think i beat out a bunch of other students because i had a talent that WASNT over represented. You play the piano? awesome, so do half of the people applying. the other half has violin or cello. Bassoon? MY MAN!

Ladies prefer Bassoon players anyway. we got better fingering skills.
This is the way my mom was too (she's Japanese)

She always wanted me to highlight that I played classical piano for a decade as well as saxophone and the baritone horn on scholarship and admission applications and I finally lost it once and was like "unless I get to send in video to show how good I am good job, I'm in the pot with another 10,000 Asian kids that play the fucking piano, maybe if you let me play fucking football I would be getting in on an athletic scholarship to be a lineman cause I'm 6'4" as a fucking 15 year old and over 300lbs already"

Was the first time I swore at a parent so... we all can probably imagine what happened next.
 
The second is more incredible but I would imagine the basketball coach whether he's Kzyaekfpoiej or however you spell his name at Duke, Popovich for the Spurs so on and so forth would take the first guy... ESPECIALLY if that first guy is a throwback low post center.

You might be mistaken though. NBA teams frequently draft on potential, not just previous accomplishments. Because they think they can make that person into something great. Sometimes it pans out and the team looks like a genius, sometimes it doesn't.

But at the elite college level - everyone is smart even if they're not all identically smart. So even the potentials that don't achieve greatness will still be pretty good. So the schools can take risks because there are no "busts" in their business.

It's not like Harvard is passing on a 1550 SAT to admit a 900. They're passing on a 1550 to admit a 1250 or 1300. Well, that 1250/1300 student is still plenty smart and will still represent the Harvard name very well in the post-collegiate world. (don't kill me because I'm not using the 2400 scale)

And the thing that gets disregarded, imo, is the really elite brains aren't getting passed over by anyone. It's the pretty good but not quite OMG-level brains that are having this problem.
 
You might be mistaken though. NBA teams frequently draft on potential, not just previous accomplishments. Because they think they can make that person into something great. Sometimes it pans out and the team looks like a genius, sometimes it doesn't.
I realize this but I feel in the analogy you used at least, most would go with the 10 out of 10 over the dude that had never seen a basketball before just cause they figure he comes with other skills like maybe he's a new Pippen type on defense or he's a stretch 5 type that can not only play on the low block like Shaq or Embid but can also hit the 3 the way Kevin Love can.

panamaican said:
But at the elite college level - everyone is smart even if they're not all identically smart. So even the potentials that don't achieve greatness will still be pretty good. So the schools can take risks because there are no "busts" in their business.

It's not like Harvard is passing on a 1550 SAT to admit a 900. They're passing on a 1550 to admit a 1250 or 1300. Well, that 1250/1300 student is still plenty smart and will still represent the Harvard name very well in the post-collegiate world. (don't kill me because I'm not using the 2400 scale)

And the thing that gets disregarded, imo, is the really elite brains aren't getting passed over by anyone. It's the pretty good but not quite OMG-level brains that are having this problem.
I get all this. I just think it's weird as a whole how Asians aren't really rolled into the "white" category and at the same time also aren't considered POC quite often. It's just weird to me.
 
It's not like Harvard is passing on a 1550 SAT to admit a 900. They're passing on a 1550 to admit a 1250 or 1300. Well, that 1250/1300 student is still plenty smart and will still represent the Harvard name very well in the post-collegiate world. (don't kill me because I'm not using the 2400 scale)
you're showing your age. I dont believe in the 2400 scale either. Pandering to snowflakes. We had 1600 and we LIKED it dammit!
 
you're showing your age. I dont believe in the 2400 scale either. Pandering to snowflakes. We had 1600 and we LIKED it dammit!
I can't remember what my gen had... I just know I scored WAY better on my ACT but am on the west coast so schools barely look at the ACT score if you had both that and the SAT
 
I realize this but I feel in the analogy you used at least, most would go with the 10 out of 10 over the dude that had never seen a basketball before just cause they figure he comes with other skills like maybe he's a new Pippen type on defense or he's a stretch 5 type that can not only play on the low block like Shaq or Embid but can also hit the 3 the way Kevin Love can.


I get all this. I just think it's weird as a whole how Asians aren't really rolled into the "white" category and at the same time also aren't considered POC quite often. It's just weird to me.

I've found that they are included in POC except when someone is using them as a wedge against the other group. This lawsuit being a prime example, to me. It's not being brought by Asians. It's being brought by a white gentleman who wants to change the overall college admissions process and he's leveraging Asian Americans against black Americans to do it (he also brought the U. of Texas lawsuit that he lost).

In my experience, the Asian discrimination groups work hand in hand with the other ethnic minority discrimination groups. But my experience is distinctly legal in origin.

I suppose the more interesting question is - where do Asians want to be? They're not going to be rolled into the white category, do they want to be in the POC category or do they want to distance themselves from that appellation and everything that comes with it?
 
I suppose the more interesting question is - where do Asians want to be? They're not going to be rolled into the white category, do they want to be in the POC category or do they want to distance themselves from that appellation and everything that comes with it?
As an Asian, or half, the only real answer I have is I would like the shit that Asians went through to be actually acknowledged. I realize blacks were royally fucked with and still are but Asians were essentially slave labor to build the railroads, the Japanese internment camps had families that owned property seized from them when they were sent to the camps never returned or paid out for it, and places like Seattle, which is lulzy, had laws on the books well into the 70s dictating where Asians could reside which is why what's considered our version of Chinatown, the International District, is so fucking big and in the shittiest oldest part of the city.
 
I get all this. I just think it's weird as a whole how Asians aren't really rolled into the "white" category and at the same time also aren't considered POC quite often. It's just weird to me.
i get it. I have probably 4 or 5 cousins that can and do pass for white, and my own daughter has blue eyes and strawberry blonde hair and will DEFINITELY pass for white. Being creole has that effect though, you get some kids that pop out different enough for the dad to sweat a bit lol.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PassFail
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooBlack
 
i get it. I have probably 4 or 5 cousins that can and do pass for white, and my own daughter has blue eyes and strawberry blonde hair and will DEFINITELY pass for white. Being creole has that effect though, you get some kids that pop out different enough for the dad to sweat a bit lol.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PassFail
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooBlack
I've always been in that goofy spot with a full blown Japanese mother but Eastern European mix for a dad.

His Romanian and Czech grandparents were over 6 feet so I was 6'3" and over 300lbs going into high school and everyone thought I was Mexican, Native, or an Islander so I get it.
 
As an Asian, or half, the only real answer I have is I would like the shit that Asians went through to be actually acknowledged. I realize blacks were royally fucked with and still are but Asians were essentially slave labor to build the railroads, the Japanese internment camps had families that owned property seized from them when they were sent to the camps never returned or paid out for it, and places like Seattle, which is lulzy, had laws on the books well into the 70s dictating where Asians could reside which is why what's considered our version of Chinatown, the International District, is so fucking big and in the shittiest oldest part of the city.

Not to minimize anything but I think the Japanese did get reparations for the internment camps and it was extended to the descendants of those who passed away before it was collected. 1988.


I find the Asian American situation interesting in that they have a very strong internal community, appear (emphasis on "appear" because I don't actually know) to lean towards seeking majority approval and distancing themselves from the other minority populations in certain circumstances. Yet there is an awareness that the majority doesn't actually treat them as equals either. How the overall community balances that is interesting to observe since they don't throw their hat in fully with either group (although they predominantly vote Democrat) but are also less than 7% of the population so they lack the numbers to push their own agenda. I suppsoe the disparity within the Asian community is a large driver of that coupled with the fact that they are far more immigrant than native born (90% immigrant). For comparison's sake, Hispanics are only ~40% immigrant, 60% native. Blacks and Whites are both <10% immigrant and 90%+ native born.

As the Asian population becomes more native born in origin, I wonder how these things will shift.
 
Those should be gating factors. You shouldn't be considered without crossing certain (high) thresholds. But to blindly favor someone who scored 95% as opposed to some who scored 90% (as an example)...that would be folly, in my opinion.

Intelligence in this scenario is like height in the NBA. You need a certain amount to be worth talking about. If you are 5'2"...that's an easy choice...not happening. But just having a lot of height does NOT make you good.

There are LOTS of people who can kick the dogshit out of standardized tests...but lack drive, creativity, people skills and things that tend to really make one stand out in the real world. I say this as a fairly antisocial programmer: simply being Mr. Smarty-Pants will not get you very far...yah, you need that, but it's not enough.

honestly, that describes me a bit. i'm not the smartest guy around, but i ended up acing both of my interviews just before graduating college. our recruit told me that i was the #1 selection for both employers who interviewed our class. i'm a naturally outgoing and gregarious guy. normally in most jobs, they train you in the way they want you to perform, so getting along with others, and fitting in is usually a huge part in being hired.
 
As an Asian, or half, the only real answer I have is I would like the shit that Asians went through to be actually acknowledged. I realize blacks were royally fucked with and still are but Asians were essentially slave labor to build the railroads, the Japanese internment camps had families that owned property seized from them when they were sent to the camps never returned or paid out for it, and places like Seattle, which is lulzy, had laws on the books well into the 70s dictating where Asians could reside which is why what's considered our version of Chinatown, the International District, is so fucking big and in the shittiest oldest part of the city.

asians are gonna take over the ID again.. my colleagues and i are gonna gentrify the shit out of it.. starting with the koda condos.. :)
 
to paraphrase Panamaican, Asians (and to a good degree whites as well but ESPECIALLY asians) have treated college admissions as if it was a set of instructions to a piece of furniture: take all honors course, score high on these 3 test, play these 2 instruments = auto enrollment in any college anywhere.

and when thats not the way it works it pisses everybody off because thats the lie highschools and educators have been preddling for the last 50 years. I was a good student in school but i wasnt what you'd call ELITE TIER. my GPA sat at 3.0, i played sports but wasnt distinguished in them, and my extracurriculars were JROTC, CAP, and working at a golf course to fund my fishing habit. Hell, my SAT score was only 1300 something (back in 99 when 1600 was the money shot) although my ACT was extremely high...i got accepted to University of fricking Chicago. maybe it was because i was black (i actually still am) or maybe it was because i play the Bassoon. in that case, i honestly think i beat out a bunch of other students because i had a talent that WASNT over represented. You play the piano? awesome, so do half of the people applying. the other half has violin or cello. Bassoon? MY MAN!

Ladies prefer Bassoon players anyway. we got better fingering skills.

This is a good point, and I am glad that you are still black, something Michael Jackson could not say at the end.

While I think it is somewhat unfair because the Asian students are very focused and work extremely hard, you have an army of the highest gpa, hardest classes, piano playing clones that have very similar attributes, so when admissions sees something different, they jump on it. But I get the anger and frustration that would come with all that hard work, perfect gpa, perfect sat scores-only to be beat out by someone with a 3.0 gpa because they are not one of the Asian clones. I mean, you all have the same perfect scores, so to change things up, they will only accept a few of these perfect students and go with someone a little differen, even if there chances of the highest level of success are greatly reduced.

But the damn internal and external pressure on these Asian kids to excel, only to come up short because there are too many perfect students just like them has to suck the big one. I guess I was lucky to be a mediocre student that was a legacy at Washington and Jefferson.
 
Your analysis is flawed because you're weighing all extracurriculars as equally attractive. As I've said in other posts - if you have 10 kids with the piano on their application then the 4-10th people are less attractive because you already have stronger representatives at that instrument. Whereas if you have another 4 applicants with the drum, you might take slightly less academically qualified students with drums because you want piano and drum, not just all piano..

You're analysis is flawed yourself because you are making the (false) assumption that the Asian students' extracurriculars are different. You are making the assumption that all the Asians students have are instruments. You're basically being biased - "oh the Asian student? He must be a math geek that plays violin or cello."

But I saw some of the Asians students extras and not all of them fit that mold.
 
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