American kenpo/freestyle vs. Shotokan (wkf/jka)

Thing is: Shotokan isn't nearly as useless as some people (who are somehow stuck in the early 1990s) believe.

I can attest to that statement. Story time, it's kind of long, sorry:

I have basically transitioned from boxing to Shotokan. I have sparred, and competed in boxing. I am not an expert but I am competent, and confident in a fight. However, I had to don a white belt like everyone else despite having previous fighting experience. When it came to sparring, and athleticism I have an edge up on mostly everyone.

Even as a white belt (I've been promoted) I was more or less toying with my fellow karateka. However, I sparred a black belt who is in his 60s. This black belt admits he is not big on fighting, and prefers kata. We sparred, and I am giving him some work full contact (obviously not with ill intent) and he doesn't seem to have a response. Then he steps off my center line and propels himself in the air into a snap kick, "Mae tobi geri"--- I think that is what he called it, I haven't been formally taught it. Anyways, for restraint purposes only he chose not to follow through, and connect with it.

I am big on analyzing when I fight, the only thing I could think in that moment was "It's over". I've been hit with some big shots by some heavy handed people in boxing, and when you're about to get gone you know. It happens fast but it seems like time slows, like watching the moments before a car accident. Furthermore, they were not propelling their entire body into the strike.

I admitted to him afterwards that he would have got me out of there if he wanted to connect, and he said "that was the only move I could think to catch you with, you have me beat on everything else." lol. This was an older black belt who almost exclusively practices kata. I am honest enough to admit that the technique he used would have been far from useless if he wanted to connect.

Shotokan is helping me a lot.
 
The only thing I would comment is that Michael Page is an elite full contact fighter. I don't know if it is a fair comparison. Yes, he did participate in point fighting, however, I think mentality is just as important as physicality in a fight. The way he approaches things may be different than pure or almost exclusively point fighting karatekas.

I came into Shotokan knowing pivots, circling out, and using angles. However, one big thing the style has helped me with is being explosive on a linear path and covering distance very quickly. We have seen the success Machida has had with "blitzing" his opponents. It may leave you open for counter arguably, but it offers very little time to think, and respond.

When learning this linear attack pattern for Shotokan, I was amazed at the distance they wanted me to attack from. I would tell them, I'm hesitant because I'm out of range (this coming from boxing and knowing "your range"). However, they broke that and I was able to blast forward to deliver my "choku zuki" or "gyaku zuki". Linear attacks can be very effective. I don't know which is better, personally. I can only speak on my experiences. Shotokan is a good style I believe.
 
I think one of the great things MMA has brought to various traditional styles, is how the art could or should be adapted: how to implement the techniques from your art into an open format such as MMA, or "the street", what techniques could probably be discarded, what techniques and strategies should be given more priority, and how to deal realistically with different types of attacks, whether they be standing striking, grappling or groundwork techniques, that are not based in the same style as the one being practiced.
I disagree, mainly because MMA is NOTHING like a street fight aside from the fact you may box AND grab. TMA is only for the street and will thus not be very useful in a ring.

I mean, come on, we all know the stories about MMA guys getting beat on the streets and streetfighters getting blown the eff out in the ring. Two pair of shoes as we say in Germany and it's also common knowledge here that your ringcraft will not translate very well to a street fight and vice versa, so I never got the "MMA=T3H STR33T" analogy anyway.
 
When learning this linear attack pattern for Shotokan, I was amazed at the distance they wanted me to attack from. I would tell them, I'm hesitant because I'm out of range (this coming from boxing and knowing "your range"). However, they broke that and I was able to blast forward to deliver my "choku zuki" or "gyaku zuki". Linear attacks can be very effective. I don't know which is better, personally. I can only speak on my experiences. Shotokan is a good style I believe.
This is interesting.
I went the other way round - from Shotokan to boxing (though briefly). And to be totally honest, I really suck at boxing. I'm too static, I don't cover well and my hooks are sloppy. So in sparring I'd get tagged by any decent in-fighter.
On one occasion I was getting lit up bad with hooks by someone with more experience, a lot worse than I expected from "light sparring". Long story short, I got real mad at the guy, sprung far back to create distance and then blitzed in with a gyaku. Broke his nose. Got punished for it later by the coach but I admit I was glad to see that some of that "useless" Shotokan stuff can work. You could say I was lucky but perhaps my opponent lowered his guard because I was out of boxing range and he did not expect me to cover distance like that. Your post made me realize this just now.
 
I disagree, mainly because MMA is NOTHING like a street fight aside from the fact you may box AND grab. TMA is only for the street and will thus not be very useful in a ring.

I mean, come on, we all know the stories about MMA guys getting beat on the streets and streetfighters getting blown the eff out in the ring. Two pair of shoes as we say in Germany and it's also common knowledge here that your ringcraft will not translate very well to a street fight and vice versa, so I never got the "MMA=T3H STR33T" analogy anyway.
While I agree MMA doesn't fully replicate a street fight, I think its a good indicator. Sure there's no rules in a street fight, but how much can it differ really? Without talking about multiple opponents or weapons, which will dramatically shift the dynamic. Are street fights any easier? OK so you can poke some in the eye, you can kick them in the ball, you can bit them. But if you cant jab someone in the face, how will you get your fingers(smaller weapon) into their eyes(smaller target). How will you kick them in the balls if you cant accurately land inside leg kicks or low front kicks(all similar). Not sure if I've described what I mean well but its just a thought. Fighting on the street doesn't automatically mean you don't need good basics
 
I disagree, mainly because MMA is NOTHING like a street fight aside from the fact you may box AND grab. TMA is only for the street and will thus not be very useful in a ring.

I mean, come on, we all know the stories about MMA guys getting beat on the streets and streetfighters getting blown the eff out in the ring. Two pair of shoes as we say in Germany and it's also common knowledge here that your ringcraft will not translate very well to a street fight and vice versa, so I never got the "MMA=T3H STR33T" analogy anyway.

do you really believe MMA and the streets/TMA is two completely different worlds? or are you just trying to stir the pot? the truth is it's like a venn diagram, there's a lot of overlap between the two
 
This is interesting.
I went the other way round - from Shotokan to boxing (though briefly). And to be totally honest, I really suck at boxing. I'm too static, I don't cover well and my hooks are sloppy. So in sparring I'd get tagged by any decent in-fighter.
On one occasion I was getting lit up bad with hooks by someone with more experience, a lot worse than I expected from "light sparring". Long story short, I got real mad at the guy, sprung far back to create distance and then blitzed in with a gyaku. Broke his nose. Got punished for it later by the coach but I admit I was glad to see that some of that "useless" Shotokan stuff can work. You could say I was lucky but perhaps my opponent lowered his guard because I was out of boxing range and he did not expect me to cover distance like that. Your post made me realize this just now.

Always great to hear your perspective on things. In boxing, I will admittedly have a lazy guard if I'm far enough out of range. The reason being is that I don't feel it necessary to expend energy holding a proper guard, and don't think I am in danger. The further away I am I'll use head movement as a primary defense.

However, blitzing catches quite a few guys off guard. I think this is because in boxing you're used to having your feet on the ground when punching, but with blitzing guys can bring both feet off the floor to come forward and lunge into the shot. It's just not something I can recall seeing in boxing, and if it's there it's not common at all.

The threat of attack in boxing comes from knowing a guy is in his range or position to strike. With blitzing you can cover range so fast it catches you off guard. It is in my view, a distance deception tactic. You think you're safe, but you find out soon enough you're not. I think it's a very underrated, and under utilized technique that I am trying to become good at learning Shotokan. Personally, I absolutely love it. lol
 
I disagree, mainly because MMA is NOTHING like a street fight aside from the fact you may box AND grab. TMA is only for the street and will thus not be very useful in a ring.

I mean, come on, we all know the stories about MMA guys getting beat on the streets and streetfighters getting blown the eff out in the ring. Two pair of shoes as we say in Germany and it's also common knowledge here that your ringcraft will not translate very well to a street fight and vice versa, so I never got the "MMA=T3H STR33T" analogy anyway.
Ok, we'll probably have to agree to disagree. But I'd rather face a TMAartist who typically is not used to or trains for full contact fighting than a MMArtist who knows what techniques are high percentage, and has drilled them and used them in full contact scenarios, in a street fight. Not saying this is absolute, but more often or not, when it comes to the physical activity of fighting, my money is on the person most used to actually fighting. I do acknowledge there is more to self defense than purely the physical aspect though - awareness, verbal, body posturing, avoidance, dealing with adrenaline etc.
 
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