An honest perspective about gun control from a former anti-2nd amendment citizen

They use “gun show loophole” just to denote sales between provate individuals. States that put forth universal background checks want you to transfer a firearm at an FFL if your buddy wants to shoot coyotes with your new 224 valkyrie AR15.

The term gunshow loophole is to whip up their base into a frenzy and make them fearful that 1000s of people are transfering guns weekly at the gun show unchecked. Similar to the media conflating “automatic” and “semi automatic” it’s designed to scare viewers

The sad part is it works very effectively. Personally, I don't think the core of the left really wants guns gone. The powers to be on the left aka chuck schumer and Diane finestein want people to vote for the left because any rational human being that believes the news should hate guns.

Our #1 enemy in this country is our main steam media which is now essentially coming out of San Fran. It's not the people
 
It's not "fuck it". It's that you can only do so much and when your "fixes" don't actually accomplish anything it's unwise to proceed. This isn't some random tweak of policy down at the factory job we're talking about. It's a Goddamn civil right that's not supposed to be infringed upon. The important legal term is "scrutiny" and the "We gotta do something!" crowd needs to be honest and acknowledge this aspect.

Feasible that there's existing legislation enacted under the guise of "fixing" gun violence? There's literally thousands of laws on the books in America. So it's a lie to say things haven't been done. Apparently what's not true is those past measures being effective enough such that we don't have to continue down the slippery slope.

I know the wording, thanks. Defense is the purpose for sure. But let's not confuse defense with service. In the plainest terms possible, it says the right to keep and bear arms belongs to the people. Only dishonesty makes that ambiguous. No idea what you mean by false equivalency here, but it lacks all reason to say people have a right to defend themselves but then to disallow the common tool that most effectively lets the weak and infirmed fight off the strong. Criminals are notorious for going after individuals they perceive as weaker than themselves. Lastly, the word is "arms" and firearms are certainly a sub-category of that. The right to keep in bear logically includes a choice. Takes a tremendous amount of ignorance to deny that some weapons are better suited for different people in different situations. One size most definitely does not fit all.
The only measure that they want as common sense is to start banning firearms, starting with semi autos, then pump shotguns and eventually anything with a magazine, leaving law abiding citizens with nothing but break action shotguns and single feed rifles.

They expanded the AWB text this time to state any single evil feature and it is banned. That’s the “something” they want
 
The only measure that they want as common sense is to start banning firearms, starting with semi autos, then pump shotguns and eventually anything with a magazine, leaving law abiding citizens with nothing but break action shotguns and single feed rifles.

They expanded the AWB text this time to state any single evil feature and it is banned. That’s the “something” they want


For my purposes here I'd rather focus on thought progression and problem-solving vs. arguing the motives of a group neither present nor well-defined. Since the laws being proposed won't have any impact on violent crime it stands to reason more and more bans would be demanded. Hard to imagine the gun-grabbers finally arrive at a statistically acceptable amount of death and injuries such that new laws won't be required.
 
It's that you can only do so much and when your "fixes" don't actually accomplish anything it's unwise to proceed. It's a Goddamn civil right that's not supposed to be infringed upon.

Feasible that there's existing legislation enacted under the guise of "fixing" gun violence? There's literally thousands of laws on the books in America. Apparently what's not true is those past measures being effective enough such that we don't have to continue down the slippery slope.

Defense is the purpose for sure. But let's not confuse defense with service. In the plainest terms possible, it says the right to keep and bear arms belongs to the people. No idea what you mean by false equivalency here, but it lacks all reason to say people have a right to defend themselves but then to disallow the common tool that most effectively lets the weak and infirmed fight off the strong. Lastly, the word is "arms" and firearms are certainly a sub-category of that. The right to keep in bear logically includes a choice. Takes a tremendous amount of ignorance to deny that some weapons are better suited in different situations.

I threw the second amendment wording in because it makes for an easy reference for me when im responding. I don't think I'm learning you up with my cut paste job.
Ignore the false equivalency comment, I was distracted as I was leaving my house and just trying to get the post out and I'm not sure where I was going with that(I still rock a flip phone so there's no forums on the go for me).

Look man, I can't name you an actual limiting gun law off the top of my head, so it sounds feasible. That word not strong enough for you? I was asking for examples but I'll concede the point anyways.

For sure some weapons are better suited to different situations. Home defense, probably a shotgun, wandering around a pistol. Long rifles for taking something at a distance. And in my opinion an ar type weapon for going on the offensive.

I'm not for taking guns, but if something isn't done I think that crowd will gain a stronger foothold.

You're right that the purpose in passing a law shouldn't be to make it LOOK like something is being done. And if a law is ineffective there is no real reason to keep it on the books. But if the attempted laws are ineffectual the stakes will keep being raised in what is attempted to be passed. If we don't continue down the "slippery slope" what way do we go? I'm not arguing for a slope but asking for a suggestion.

What type of laws do you think would be effective?

Are the bullets for personal defense weapons the same as for a more offensively designed weapon? My understanding of a country like Switzerland is that they limit access to ammunition. Maybe that's a better way to go about it? Its easy to shoot down ideas but you gotta throw some out yourself. If one side of the argument can't trust the other to take their concerns into account you have the two sides in competition instead of working towards a common goal.

I've already said I don't worry about the second amendment from a personal protection point of view. In my reading of it it is national defense based. But I know a whole lot of people do worry about it from that angle so Im all ears. But don't forget that amendments can be repealed and amended. My fear is that if the current violence problem, exacerbated by guns, isn't curbed that could be the way of the second. And I think it's there for something much more important than an individual here or there. Much the same way that I accept that guns in our population mean some people will be shot.

PS. If I could eliminate "arms" from our civilian population, I wouldn't.




Edited for clariry
 
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Look man, I can't name you an actual limiting gun law off the top of my head, so it sounds feasible. That word not strong enough for you? I was asking for examples but I'll concede the point anyways.

Ok. I'm must surprised I'd have to name some.
  • National Firearms Act of 1934 created an exorbitant tax on owning full-auto, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, and sound suppressors.
  • Gun Control Act of 1968 created categories of prohibited persons, banned mailorder sales by requiring background checks through a dealer.
  • Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 which banned sales of machine guns not registered by May, 1986.
  • 1994 Assault Weapons Ban that sunset after 10 years limited magazine capacity and combinations of features on rifles.
  • Everything on the state level saying when, where, how people can buy guns (eg. waiting periods, private sale background checks, registries).

You're right that the purpose in passing a law shouldn't be to make it LOOK like something is being done. And if a law is ineffective there is no real reason to keep it on the books. But if the attempted laws are ineffectual the stakes will keep being raised in what is attempted to be passed. If we don't continue down the "slippery slope" what way do we go? I'm not arguing for a slope but asking for a suggestion

What type of laws do you think would be effective?

If you want to decrease gun deaths I'd say end drug prohibition. It creates violence. No different than alcohol prohibition. Give that ten years and see how crime rates do. If we want to decrease mass murders that's fine too. But first we need to understand they are statistically rare and the arms being vilified aren't really killing that many people in the scheme of things. Here I don't know what you do. Smaller classes and more attention from adults might go further than some kid having to reload a couple extra times because of magazine capacity restrictions. I'd be interested in possibly punishing parents who allow unsupervised access to minors.


Are the bullets for personal defense weapons the same as for a more offensively designed weapon? My understanding of a country like Switzerland is that they limit access to ammunition. Maybe that's a better way to go about it?

Bullets and velocities vary. Lots of choices for ammo for one's gun. And it's pretty much all gonna kill you, depending on shot placement. Ammo is part and parcel with firearms. It's as protected as they are so this idea would be just as un-Constitutional.


I've already said I don't worry about the second amendment from a personal protection point of view. In my reading of it it is national defense based. But I know a whole lot of people do worry about it from that angle so Im all ears. But don't forget that amendments can be repealed and amended.

I'd say this those who want more gun control. The people's right to keep and bear has clearly already been greatly infringed upon. So repeal, amend, or accept the fact that no matter what you do there will be violence in this world and realize that it's easy to avoid for the most part.
 
OP I like to play the game of “what gun laws...” where I look and see what laws were broken where, the fact is psychotics can and do pass background checks, and in the case of my MIL passes a yearly psych exam, while lying about not being on any anti psychotic medications.

If you really want to get into the “our side” koolaid, this country has about 700,000 civilian owned machineguns (170,000 pre 1986 transferables and the rest are post 86 dealer stock) these evil actual machineguns have been used in three crimes since 1934, of which only one time did someone get shot. Had they not closed the registry in 1986 we most likely would have the same low low percent trend and never have bumpfire stocks, this might have made a difference last year.

Good ole gubbermint
It's a double-edged sword. If a shooter obtains a firearm legally, it's because the system has too many "loopholes" or the even stupider argument justifying that gun owners should be criminalized from the beginning, because some criminals start out as law-abiding citizens.

On the other hand, if a shooter obtains firearms illegally, then it's about how "all guns start as legal guns" and we're back to criminalization and government watch lists.
 
Still a fan just like basically every other Australian is.

It's quite funny how so many think the 2nd amendment is worth than the paper it's written on. It's clearly ineffective and overridden, I doubt anyone could say their right to bear arms has not been infringed.
Which is why people won't put up with anymore infringement.
 
If he sold it under the law we're talking about here he'd have to have done a background check and presumably there would be a record of that check where he had it done whether its at a police station or with a FFL.

No law is a silver bullet so of course there would be ways to get around it. But do you really think your average gang banger, the most likely type of person to commit a rime with a gun, is going to know how to build a gun from pipes and shit? If it took that much trouble to get a gun they'd probably settle for a knife or hammer.

The guys who know how to build guns are the gun nut types and they're generally not criminals.
You're headed deep into registration/government watch list territory. If you want to make it about just "universal background checks" the only thing it needs to prove is that the buyer isn't a criminal. When there are records of tombstone data, transfers and specific details of the firearm exchanged...that's a registry.
 
M1 carbine is not a "basic deer hunting rifle." It's a military semi-automatic carbine. It was mainly used by officers from ww2-vietnam. With the surplus of ammunition, it was a cheap target rifle for a while. Now, unfortunately for me, it's ~50c/round.

San Ysidro involved an uzi semi-automatic carbine.

Essentially, my problem with your thread is that you included two "scarier weapons" in your "lesser weapon" examples and failed to include the Vegas "scarier weapon" shooting.
The "basic deer hunting rifle" started out as a military rifle. Self-contained cartridges with powder, primer, casing and conical projectiles were pretty big game changers, not to mention repeating actions.
 
Damn, looks like I got to the party late.
 
The "basic deer hunting rifle" started out as a military rifle. Self-contained cartridges with powder, primer, casing and conical projectiles were pretty big game changers, not to mention repeating actions.
Absolutely, and if you look at it it becomes clearer, returning vets from WWI taught their kids to hunt with milsurp 1903 springfields and mausers, returning vets from WWII taught their kids to hunt with M1 garands, returning vets from Vietnam passed down the code of arms from the M1 carbine and M16, and our current vets prefer and pass down the use of the M4/current gen AR15.

My Grandfather was a combat vet in Korea, my dad is the best shooter with a 1911 I have ever met, as that was his Dad’s prederence. Milsurp has always been a strong driving force in the civilian market.
Ok. I'm must surprised I'd have to name some.
  • National Firearms Act of 1934 created an exorbitant tax on owning full-auto, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, and sound suppressors.
  • Gun Control Act of 1968 created categories of prohibited persons, banned mailorder sales by requiring background checks through a dealer.
  • Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 which banned sales of machine guns not registered by May, 1986.
  • 1994 Assault Weapons Ban that sunset after 10 years limited magazine capacity and combinations of features on rifles.
  • Everything on the state level saying when, where, how people can buy guns (eg. waiting periods, private sale background checks, registries).



If you want to decrease gun deaths I'd say end drug prohibition. It creates violence. No different than alcohol prohibition. Give that ten years and see how crime rates do. If we want to decrease mass murders that's fine too. But first we need to understand they are statistically rare and the arms being vilified aren't really killing that many people in the scheme of things. Here I don't know what you do. Smaller classes and more attention from adults might go further than some kid having to reload a couple extra times because of magazine capacity restrictions. I'd be interested in possibly punishing parents who allow unsupervised access to minors.




Bullets and velocities vary. Lots of choices for ammo for one's gun. And it's pretty much all gonna kill you, depending on shot placement. Ammo is part and parcel with firearms. It's as protected as they are so this idea would be just as un-Constitutional.




I'd say this those who want more gun control. The people's right to keep and bear has clearly already been greatly infringed upon. So repeal, amend, or accept the fact that no matter what you do there will be violence in this world and realize that it's easy to avoid for the most part.
Our Alcohol prohibition gave the world the best, most organized criminal force out there,

The Bootleggers
Mafia
Cartels
And street gangs

Came from a stupid puritanical concept of banning alcohol.
 
If kafir is bowing out I'll try to step in. For the most part I'm on your side of this argument but I don't think anything is gained by completely shutting down the other side. If the goal is to hinder acquisition of firearms by restricted individuals let's try approaching it from that end.

What would be effective ways (even if you found them to be unconstitutional) to limit firearm sales to these individuals?

A registry with penalty to a seller who disregards the law?
Registry of 3d printers?

The angle you're approaching from is attempting to limit the answer to "fuck it, let's not even try to fix it."

Taking into consideration what Cubo's already addressed along those lines, what about those registries would stop any of those crimes? The only thing those registries are good for would be to find the person that committed the crime with them.... which so far hasn't been the limiting factor with mass shootings.
 
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I personally believe we should do away with our military.
Do away with the nonsense narrative that our soldiers across the world who are in an oppressive positions of authority to citizens in other countries keeps us free and safe. Acknowledge there is a great chance that our presence in other countries is actually detrimental to american safety.

I believe we should arm every adult with military grade weapons, have an armory in every neighborhood, limit access to ammunition and part of a civics class should be an understanding that all of us are what keeps america free. The idea of a well regulated militia wasn't some last second tack on to the 2nd amendment, its a stand in for our military and it is essential to the nature of the amendment. The 2nd amendment is there for protection, not personal, but national. On top of that a strong sense of community and purpose is wonderful for mental health. I think firearms, powerful firearms, are a necessity of the safety of a nation but the fetishist way we approach them in this country is destructive and, I believe, needs to be addressed.

Beautiful post, but how did you arrive at limiting ammunition from all of the rest of this?
 
But don't forget that amendments can be repealed and amended. My fear is that if the current violence problem, exacerbated by guns, isn't curbed that could be the way of the second.

Wouldn't mean jack or shit if they did.... "The right to keep and bear..."
 
No. There's no legitimate evidence or proof of a gun show loop hole. Fake news buddy
Just saying that a Crowder video is not evidence of the contrary either. I haven't looked at the evidence in favor of, to be honest. But Crowder is extremely biased and dishonest.
 
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