International [Arab-Israeli Conflict, v4] Israel Sets Goal of Doubling the Jewish Population on the Golan Heights

[Phr3121]

Alas, we live in reality, where real actions have real consequences, and you don't have a Time Machine.

Yeah, that is nice Jewish/Israeli propaganda (link). Like the Israelis have no fault in the matter. Did the Israelis not extend their border after their wars with the Arabs? Why? Go back to the borders of the 1947 agreement. Take the 'action' on behalf of the Palestinians if they mean what they say. They are the ones in a position to do it. It is their country. But they won't...

 

[12ga.]

Yeah, that is nice Jewish/Israeli propaganda (link). Like the Israelis have no fault in the matter. Did the Israelis not extend their border after their wars with the Arabs? Why? Go back to the borders of the 1947 agreement. Take the 'action' on behalf of the Palestinians if they mean what they say. They are the ones in a position to do it. It is their country. But they won't...

offtopic: I can't believe someone from Oklahoma is tuned into to this issue. I picture Christian zionism all the way coming out of there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

 

[abiG]

You know the answer. It would mean recognition of Israel, which the Palestinians refuse to recognize.

Again you choose to simply post zionist propaganda in the middle of an otherwise intelligent post, why?

Regardless of what Israel's little mouthpieces like to tell the world, the truth is that the Palestinian leadership accepted Israel, two states, along with resolutions 242 and 338 in 1988. The whole world knows this, so your/@Arkain's claim is useless.

And let's not forget what took place on the White House lawn in 1993. Clinton, who was a 'ready to die for Israel' level of zionist himself remarked prior to this event:

"The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die," Clinton, who avoided the Vietnam War, said to cheers at a Hadassah children's charity fund-raising dinner Monday.

Anyways, the rest truly is history, the world knows this too and you should go learn it now.

Good luck.

 

[trolldum]

So there is no hope for agreement? So sad to hear that. Israel will have a hard time in trying to stop the expansion of the West Bank settlements considering the fact that two largest of them are populated by ultra-orthodox Jews with 6-7 children on the average. If something bad happens, Palestinians can always count on PR victories in Western media. If that's what satisfy them, then who are we to judge them and their strategy?

 

[Phr3121]

offtopic: I can't believe someone from Oklahoma is tuned into to this issue. I picture Christian zionism all the way coming out of there.

No, not a Christian Zionist. Please. I'm Catholic. I'm older and wiser now. No, not everyone in Oklahoma is a 'redneck' who can't point to Israel on a map. I have traveled through much of the world and spent 20 years with the U.S. Army. So, political issues that may turn into a war do interest me. Don't want to see U.S. soldiers loosing their lives for bullshit causes like Iraq.

 

[Phr3121]

Again you choose to simply post zionist propaganda in the middle of an otherwise intelligent post, why? Regardless of what Israel's little mouthpieces like to tell the world, the truth is that the Palestinian leadership accepted Israel, two states, along with resolutions 242 and 338 in 1988. Anyways, the rest truly is history, the world knows this too and you should go learn it now.

Wacky was as wacky is.

Did the Palestinians really accept Israel or was that just propaganda like the Israelis like to do? I hear 'naïve' calling in the background. If that is true, why do we find ourselves in our current dilemma in Israel? Wake up girl!

. Definition: "The term UN Resolutions 242 and 338 refers to two resolutions approved by the UN Security Council. Resolution 242 was approved after the 1967 war (11/67) while Resolution 338 was approved during the 1973 war (10/73)."

. Background: "UN Resolutions 242 and 338 call for the peaceful resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict through territorial compromise. The acceptance of the Resolutions by Arab elements indicates their recognition of Israel."

So, where do we stand on resolution 242 and 338 today? I don't see it. Can you show it to me? Where is the 'territorial compromise'? I guess it voids the Arab 'acceptance' and 'recognition' clause. The Israelis fucked that up yet again. No surprise there. They follow that Nazi reasoning to a tee. Again, they have become the very thing they hate. You should know that.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

 

[abiG]

Wacky was as wacky is.

Did the Palestinians really accept Israel or was that just propaganda like the Israelis like to do? I hear 'naïve' calling in the background. If that is true, why do we find ourselves in our current dilemma in Israel? Wake up girl!

. Definition: "The term UN Resolutions 242 and 338 refers to two resolutions approved by the UN Security Council. Resolution 242 was approved after the 1967 war (11/67) while Resolution 338 was approved during the 1973 war (10/73)."

. Background: "UN Resolutions 242 and 338 call for the peaceful resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict through territorial compromise. The acceptance of the Resolutions by Arab elements indicates their recognition of Israel."

So, where do we stand on resolution 242 and 338 today? I don't see it. Can you show it to me? Where is the 'territorial compromise'? I guess it voids the Arab 'acceptance' and 'recognition' clause. The Israelis fucked that up yet again. No surprise there. They follow that Nazi reasoning to a tee. Again, they have become the very thing they hate. You should know that.

You are probably a good guy, but this is ridiculous. I can't google and read stuff for you.

Yes, in 1988, Arafat was at several peace conferences saying the same thing he said at the UN that very year. The zionists never wanted a deal that included Palestinians anywhere in their promised land. They pretend this and accuse the Arabs of not accepting deals which is what they are guilty of themselves. The zionists, for the next five years insisted that the Palestinians never agreed to their own state which was crap. During this time they went on to bulldoze multiple homes and replace these homes with white only/European only/'Jew' only settlements on land they knew was not theirs. This is exactly what Hitler envisioned for Europe.

That said, here we are on the fucking White House Lawn in 1993:

The historic agreement WAS SIGNED! Two states were going to be a reality, so what the hell happened to this agreement and the accompanying resolutions you are inquiring about?

Rabin was murdered, not by Arabs, by zionists. The whole thing went to shit because of the zionists who then went on with more killing and land theft as the world just watched in horror, as we still do to this day.

Again, peace prior to the complete ethnic cleansing of the native population from the Nile to the Euphrates is not possible once you understand this issue. Everything else is a zionist talking point.

 

[Phr3121]

You are probably a good guy...

Yes, I'm one of the good guys. Rabin, Jews killing Jews, nothing new there. Arafat, a worthless piece of shit who has probably done more harm than good to the Palestinian cause.

 

[abiG]

Yes, I'm one of the good guys. Rabin, Jews killing Jews, nothing new there. Arafat, a worthless piece of shit who has probably done more harm than good to the Palestinian cause.

Way to miss the point. Later.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The question was: "What exactly are they holding out for anyway? Realistically, what could possibly be better than Bill Clinton's proposal?"

There's absolutely nothing in your entire response that's even remotely be close to being an answer to that question.

It's now been nearly two decades since Camp David, and I have yet to see a single proposal from anyone, including the most fervent supporters of Israel and Palestine through THREE iterations of this discussion thread, that's more realistic and workable to both sides than what Bill Clinton put forth in 2001.

If you have one, I'd love to hear it.

I have a crazy solution personally.

West Bank and Gaza become self governing autonomous zones, not a sovereign state, like Israel wants. But in exchange the Palestinians refugees get to exercise their right of return to Israel. Here's the kicker though, they don't get Israeli citizenship but instead Palestinian citizenship and are only allowed to vote in the elections of the Palestinian territories. In addition Palestinian citizenship, granted to the returning refugees and all currently in Palestine, get a Schengen zone-like access to Israel and vice versa. They can move freely for work or travel or what have you without barriers.

If this is not enough to placate the fears of the Zionists of a Palestinian take over of their democracy then add in a stipulation which requires that the Israeli Prime Minister must be a Jew and the Knesset must have a Jewish majority. Israelis and Palestinians both agree to a set of civil liberties which are protected regardless of which side of the border they are on.

This way, Palestinians have self governance in their remaining territories, Israel maintains its Jewish democracy, and both have access to all of historic Palestine.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Would be nice if you can invent a Time Machine to go back to 1948 and somehow prevents the Arabs from flushing that plan down the toilet, isn't it?

Given our hindsight we know the Palestinians should've taken that deal but at the time it was a shit deal. It gave slightly over half the land to the Jews who were slightly less than a third of the population and this after the Zionists had already been displacing Arabs for decades.

They were already aggrieved and saw a shitty deal in front of them, its not surprising they weren't happy. But at this point there's no argument that, given hindsight, they should've taken it. The deals only got worse and worse. At least the Native Americans agreed to shitty deals before getting fucked over again and again and again.

 

[superpunch]

I have a crazy solution personally.

West Bank and Gaza become self governing autonomous zones, not a sovereign state, like Israel wants. But in exchange the Palestinians refugees get to exercise their right of return to Israel. Here's the kicker though, they don't get Israeli citizenship but instead Palestinian citizenship and are only allowed to vote in the elections of the Palestinian territories. In addition Palestinian citizenship, granted to the returning refugees and all currently in Palestine, get a Schengen zone-like access to Israel and vice versa. They can move freely for work or travel or what have you without barriers.

If this is not enough to placate the fears of the Zionists of a Palestinian take over of their democracy then add in a stipulation which requires that the Israeli Prime Minister must be a Jew and the Knesset must have a Jewish majority. Israelis and Palestinians both agree to a set of civil liberties which are protected regardless of which side of the border they are on.

This way, Palestinians have self governance in their remaining territories, Israel maintains its Jewish democracy, and both have access to all of historic Palestine.

The Palestinian people elected hamas though. Given that, how is an open travel agreement between Israel and the Palestinians at all possible?

 

[Islam Imamate]

The Palestinian people elected hamas though. Given that, how is an open travel agreement between Israel and the Palestinians at all possible?

Sure there's reason to be weary of such an agreement, especially given the historic trouble making of the Palestinians in Jordan and Lebanon. But presumably if the conflict is resolved that's much less of an issue.

Besides, most Palestinians are incredibly dissatisfied with Hamas. Trump got elected in the US and he had historically low approval ratings initially and Clinton likely would have too. Its the same deal the Palestinians saw Hamas as the lesser of evils in their desperate position. Not to mention Hamas has not held an election since 2006 IIRC so its not like they've received steady support.

 

[12ga.]

No, not a Christian Zionist. Please. I'm Catholic. I'm older and wiser now. No, not everyone in Oklahoma is a 'redneck' who can't point to Israel on a map. I have traveled through much of the world and spent 20 years with the U.S. Army. So, political issues that may turn into a war do interest me. Don't want to see U.S. soldiers loosing their lives for bullshit causes like Iraq.

Yes very sad we are bleeding men and money (and brunt of much Terrorism) to support Israeli and Brutal dictators like KSA's ambitions. I read a book long ago called Imperial hubris by CIA head of bin Laden desk and goes through history of all this growth of terrorism and lays a lot of blame on US policy I happen to agree with.

I'm older as well and I don't recall all this terrorism in the 70s and 80s. Sure they blew our Barack's up in 83 Beirut and Reagan was smart enough to GTFO an not turn it into a crusade. Today it's all neo-cons destroying dozens of countries and causing world wide mayhem. It's like Arms makers own policy not logic.

 

[cincymma79]

Yes very sad we are bleeding men and money (and brunt of much Terrorism) to support Israeli and Brutal dictators like KSA's ambitions. I read a book long ago called Imperial hubris by CIA head of bin Laden desk and goes through history of all this growth of terrorism and lays a lot of blame on US policy I happen to agree with.

I'm older as well and I don't recall all this terrorism in the 70s and 80s. Sure they blew our Barack's up in 83 Beirut and Reagan was smart enough to GTFO an not turn it into a crusade. Today it's all neo-cons destroying dozens of countries and causing world wide mayhem. It's like Arms makers own policy not logic.

It was worse then
There was no internet to bring it to you daily
Don’t be daft

 

[12ga.]

The Palestinian people elected hamas though. Given that, how is an open travel agreement between Israel and the Palestinians at all possible?

When you're abused for decades you might get radicalized. Greek, French, and other resistors who terrorized the nazis and thier supporters are lauded as heroes not the Vichy french who gave in - they are losers. How are Palestinians exempted from this idea? The place is literally unlivable according to UN place is poisoned with no potable water. Its under a total blockade where no one gets out and nothing get in Irael doesn't want. I don't blame them getting militant. Laying down Ghandi style never did them any good either like in first intifada.

 

[JbModest]

I have a crazy solution personally.

West Bank and Gaza become self governing autonomous zones, not a sovereign state, like Israel wants. But in exchange the Palestinians refugees get to exercise their right of return to Israel. Here's the kicker though, they don't get Israeli citizenship but instead Palestinian citizenship and are only allowed to vote in the elections of the Palestinian territories. In addition Palestinian citizenship, granted to the returning refugees and all currently in Palestine, get a Schengen zone-like access to Israel and vice versa. They can move freely for work or travel or what have you without barriers.

If this is not enough to placate the fears of the Zionists of a Palestinian take over of their democracy then add in a stipulation which requires that the Israeli Prime Minister must be a Jew and the Knesset must have a Jewish majority. Israelis and Palestinians both agree to a set of civil liberties which are protected regardless of which side of the border they are on.

This way, Palestinians have self governance in their remaining territories, Israel maintains its Jewish democracy, and both have access to all of historic Palestine.

I have a better solution. The Gulf states purchase each property in the Wes Bank tindividually from the owners. They then hold a lottery and displaced Palestinians move into those properties. This as Israel withdraws from West Bank except for buffer zone. A corridor is made between the West Bank and Gaza. Of course, the West Bank settlers would never agree to it and neither would anyone else. The situation is basically hopeless.

 

[cincymma79]

I have a better solution. The Gulf states purchase each property in the Wes Bank tindividually from the owners. They then hold a lottery and displaced Palestinians move into those properties. This as Israel withdraws from West Bank except for buffer zone. A corridor is made between the West Bank and Gaza. Of course, the West Bank settlers would never agree to it and neither would anyone else. The situation is basically hopeless.

Give the West Bank to them
Give Gaza what they currently have with the caveat they lose a tenth of a mile for each rocket they fire

 

[JbModest]

Give the West Bank to them
Give Gaza what they currently have with the caveat they lose a tenth of a mile for each rocket they fire

There will always be radicals who fire rockets. The Palestinians would lose all their land.