Back control tactics

[MilesP4P]

I am going to keep a close eye on this thread in the hopes that people fill it up with their personal "go to" tactics,in the hopes that I can learn something new in terms of offense and then I can properly train the defense for each tactic and make myself more well rounded.

I personally never take the back. I train grappling primarily for mma and self defense and all too often (for my liking anyway) I see even the highest level of BJJ guys lose the back in MMA fights as well as in grappling competitions.

In these past few years we have seen great guys like GSP ,Askren and Khabib completely neglect the back in favor of employing folk style riding techniques in order to ground and pound their opponent and focus on mat returns.

Dont get me wrong I know a guy like Demian Maia makes it work, but when you see guys like Roger Gracie and Marcelo fail to finish people in fights with rear naked chokes, it kind of shakes my faith in the position(or my ability to maintain the position and get a finish from it) lol

I know what I am saying is blasphemous in the bjj world, but I think people with more MMA inclined thinking might see where I am coming from.

 

[rmongler]

There is unfortunately no resource that lets you search databases of fights by method of finish or by statistics of the same to easily find examples of what you want, but if you are willing to put in the time you can trawl through records like fightfinder to find things bit by bit.

Having had to do so for many different topics, i can say that there are a few guys in the MMA scene that specialize in RNC finishes than can be useful to study. Two names that come to mind immediately are Marat Gafurov and Kevin Lee.

One thing you often see in successful rnc finishers in the cage is the back-bow finish, where instead of staying back down, the attacker moves the opponent to his side (usually with a body triangle), and punches his top arm in (same side the body triangle is hooking his leg, to stop the turn in) and ratchets the opponent back, like a wrestler's bow-and-arrow. This is so he can put more weight and leverage into pushing his arm through the opponents defense, and have open space to fully hyperextend and put his hips into the choke. This can be done from the single-leg/cross-body ride as well. Can also switch sides or arms for the reverse guillotine/dragon sleeper.

You can see Gafurov and Lee frequently use this method, as well as how Chad Mendes finished Jeff Glover, or Vagner Rocha in several EBIs.

 

[kjg1672]

I hate having the body triangle done to me, unfortunately my legs are too short/thick to ever get it!

I can't body triangle, either. I have Marcelo legs.

 

[kjg1672]

I am going to keep a close eye on this thread in the hopes that people fill it up with their personal "go to" tactics,in the hopes that I can learn something new in terms of offense and then I can properly train the defense for each tactic and make myself more well rounded.

I personally never take the back. I train grappling primarily for mma and self defense and all too often (for my liking anyway) I see even the highest level of BJJ guys lose the back in MMA fights as well as in grappling competitions.

In these past few years we have seen great guys like GSP ,Askren and Khabib completely neglect the back in favor of employing folk style riding techniques in order to ground and pound their opponent and focus on mat returns.

Dont get me wrong I know a guy like Demian Maia makes it work, but when you see guys like Roger Gracie and Marcelo fail to finish people in fights with rear naked chokes, it kind of shakes my faith in the position(or my ability to maintain the position and get a finish from it) lol

I know what I am saying is blasphemous in the bjj world, but I think people with more MMA inclined thinking might see where I am coming from.

I have been training for 10 years and only for the past 2 years or so have I consciously tried to incorporate taking the back into my game. For some reason I've never been comfortable with it; I prefer to just pass guard and work an armbar, papercutter choke, kimura, etc. But it seemed like too big of a hole to have in my game. I now get the bow-and-arrow on occasion, but it's still pretty rare for me to RNC someone no-gi.

 

[MilesP4P]

I have been training for 10 years and only for the past 2 years or so have I consciously tried to incorporate taking the back into my game. For some reason I've never been comfortable with it; I prefer to just pass guard and work an armbar, papercutter choke, kimura, etc. But it seemed like too big of a hole to have in my game. I now get the bow-and-arrow on occasion, but it's still pretty rare for me to RNC someone no-gi.

Lol, glad to know I am not the only one who is not obsessed with taking the back.

I will admit this thread has made me privy to some new techniques and I plan on drilling them and creating defenses for them to round me out.

 

[rmongler]

Attacking the head and arm hold directly is another option.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I am going to keep a close eye on this thread in the hopes that people fill it up with their personal "go to" tactics,in the hopes that I can learn something new in terms of offense and then I can properly train the defense for each tactic and make myself more well rounded.

I personally never take the back. I train grappling primarily for mma and self defense and all too often (for my liking anyway) I see even the highest level of BJJ guys lose the back in MMA fights as well as in grappling competitions.

In these past few years we have seen great guys like GSP ,Askren and Khabib completely neglect the back in favor of employing folk style riding techniques in order to ground and pound their opponent and focus on mat returns.

Dont get me wrong I know a guy like Demian Maia makes it work, but when you see guys like Roger Gracie and Marcelo fail to finish people in fights with rear naked chokes, it kind of shakes my faith in the position(or my ability to maintain the position and get a finish from it) lol

I know what I am saying is blasphemous in the bjj world, but I think people with more MMA inclined thinking might see where I am coming from.

They are 2 different things...

In Mma is one thing, in sd is totally another thing, do not get this 2 mixed up...

In Mma you have 2 main things that made rnc much more difficult. 1. Gloves 2. Rules

If you remove the gloves, the rnc % will skyrocket.

2, rules, if you have someone’s back in a st confrtwtion, what the heck is stopping you from elbowing the shit out of the back of your opponents head? Or pulling the the hair up in order to make space to sink the choking arm? In a sf situation, a 1v1 of course, back control is the most dominant position, you can generate a lot of damage and not get hit back.

 

[dmwalking]

Oldie but a goodie

 

[dmwalking]

Another one

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Another one

James paredes was a nutcase, but this guy takes all the prizes...

 

[xMTDx]

Bow and arrow in gi and palm to palm choke without. A good tight body triangle never hurts either, especially if you are short like me and get a crushing effect from compact little legs

 

[TheGZA]

Fun fact: Ze Mario and Bob Backlund have the same finisher.

 

[tekkenfan]

this is something iv got to get better at i have horrible back control because i love to scramble and hate siting there fighting for choke as guys are hell bent on defending i also get more tired in this position than any other having to carry there weight using legs to pull them around

 

[tekkenfan]

My old coach. Beast.

your under phil? phils great he brought me out to austin back when i was a purple belt in 2011 for a month t train with bunch of his fighters its ad he left austin the gym kinda shut down after that it use t have tim kennedy, kamal shalaros, yves edwards, dustin portier was there too for a bit

 

[mattemate]

your under phil? phils great he brought me out to austin back when i was a purple belt in 2011 for a month t train with bunch of his fighters its ad he left austin the gym kinda shut down after that it use t have tim kennedy, kamal shalaros, yves edwards, dustin portier was there too for a bit

Yeah, he's in now Florida now. Haven't seen him in years but we message on FB now and then and I catch him on the phone to say hi once a year or so. I want to go by St. Augustine to train with him some time. It's hard to believe now but I've known Phil since 2001.

I train under Gabriel Martins at Integracao now. He's a phenom.

 

[tekkenfan]

Yeah, he's in now Florida now. Haven't seen him in years but we message on FB now and then and I catch him on the phone to say hi once a year or so. I want to go by St. Augustine to train with him some time. It's hard to believe now but I've known Phil since 2001.

I train under Gabriel Martins at Integracao now. He's a phenom.

yeah ill be back n orlando soon i need to go train with him man the sa gym in early 2011 was amazing had like 18 purples 10 browns 3 blacks for 2011 that was insane

 

[mattemate]

yeah ill be back n orlando soon i need to go train with him man the sa gym in early 2011 was amazing had like 18 purples 10 browns 3 blacks for 2011 that was insane

Which gym in San Antonio?
Man Kamal is a monster. I was there when he first started BJJ. I was either blue belt or almost blue belt. He snapped me down and neck cranked me from inside my guard and incouI coudo jack shit about it.
Khabib kicked his ass but he was actually the only guy Khabib couldn't take down

 

[tekkenfan]

Which gym in San Antonio?
Man Kamal is a monster. I was there when he first started BJJ. I was either blue belt or almost blue belt. He snapped me down and neck cranked me from inside my guard and incouI coudo jack shit about it.
Khabib kicked his ass but he was actually the only guy Khabib couldn't take down

i meant in austin i was there when kamal had his ufc debut he had a house that he turn down all walls and matted out and taught wrestling

san antontio is josh laubers gym

 

[mataleaos]

I am going to keep a close eye on this thread in the hopes that people fill it up with their personal "go to" tactics,in the hopes that I can learn something new in terms of offense and then I can properly train the defense for each tactic and make myself more well rounded.

I personally never take the back. I train grappling primarily for mma and self defense and all too often (for my liking anyway) I see even the highest level of BJJ guys lose the back in MMA fights as well as in grappling competitions.

In these past few years we have seen great guys like GSP ,Askren and Khabib completely neglect the back in favor of employing folk style riding techniques in order to ground and pound their opponent and focus on mat returns.

Dont get me wrong I know a guy like Demian Maia makes it work, but when you see guys like Roger Gracie and Marcelo fail to finish people in fights with rear naked chokes, it kind of shakes my faith in the position(or my ability to maintain the position and get a finish from it) lol

I know what I am saying is blasphemous in the bjj world, but I think people with more MMA inclined thinking might see where I am coming from.

I see where you're coming from for sure.

Also for what it's worth, the level of RNC defense has never been higher due to rule sets like EBI. On the flip side the methods for grip fighting and finishing the RNC are improving at a crazy rate. I can't think of anyone in MMA right now that is using truly high level grip fighting to get the RNC and the methods to get the RNC back when Roger and especially Marcelo were doing MMA are almost primitive in comparison. Marcelo also admitted to not training to finish the RNC with the gloves on and that was a big factor for him. It was also "the worst period in his life."

A huge leap with the RNC recently has been finishing it even against a tucked jaw. And as a choke too. Not just a face crank. Here's a video on that. Demian Maia has been using this in MMA, and many of the best in pure grappling are starting to do this also. If you watch Gordon Ryan or Felipe Pena doing RNCs they don't care if the chin or jaw is in there. They finish the strangle anyways.

I see the logic of where you're coming from and I don't even think it's a bad thing. However, I think being able to take the back, ride the back, and finish from the back are skills that a good grappler should have. The back isn't my #1 go-to but as a brown belt I feel like it would be ridiculous for me to not at least have decent back attacks, control, and finishing.

 

[mataleaos]

They are 2 different things...

In Mma is one thing, in sd is totally another thing, do not get this 2 mixed up...

In Mma you have 2 main things that made rnc much more difficult. 1. Gloves 2. Rules

If you remove the gloves, the rnc % will skyrocket.

2, rules, if you have someone’s back in a st confrtwtion, what the heck is stopping you from elbowing the shit out of the back of your opponents head? Or pulling the the hair up in order to make space to sink the choking arm? In a sf situation, a 1v1 of course, back control is the most dominant position, you can generate a lot of damage and not get hit back.

Exactly. Strikes to the head would open up so many RNC opportunities. And the gloves do make a huge difference although I think guys like Braulio Estima, Demian Maia, Gordon Ryan, Felipe Pena, to name a few are showing that you can finish solid RNCs without having to get underneath the opponent's chin. It takes techniques time to migrate from pure grappling into MMA but I think we will see pretty soon more people just finishing the RNC through the jaw in MMA.

Demian Maia went through a several year period where he wasn't subbing anyone. Then he started finishing the RNC through the jaw and started subbing everyone again.