Battles of posture + positioning:

[Sinister]

So I've been watching that WCK a lot because it's on late nights and takes place here in Vegas. What I notice when watching is that almost every fight is greatly effected by the Fighters' posture. For purposes of boxing, the way my partner and I like to phrase posture is "chin down, chest up." The "chest up" part being an important cue because a lot of bad things happen if you slouch and do not have the athleticism built-in to make up for being in a more poor position. This old rendition of Bendigo is a nice demonstration of good upper-body boxing positioning:

But it's pretty interesting that this REALLY stood out to me watching a muay thai circuit. Almost every fighter with very good posture had a distinct advantage. They secured lower angles easier, controlled distance easier, got hit flush significantly less, and due to there being no bend of their spines (you guys who have wrestling experience, think of HOW you achieve your takedown, at what point the opponent becomes weak to your leverage), they had much stronger stances in general. Now, it's difficult to find WCK bouts because they're so new and I've not seen very many online yet. But when looking up certain fighters I could see the same thing in other bouts where they were very successful. One of them is a guy with a Karate background (so it makes sense) named Joey Pagliuso, note the difference in simple efficiency of the delivery of his techniques against an opponent who had more experience as a Professional:



Yelle has pretty poor upper-body posture. Strong legs. But the general slouching of his shoulders results in the distinct inability to keep his chin out of harm's way. When he gets hit, he gets hit FLUSH...and HARD. Joey, on the other hand, isn't bothered by being hit nearly as much. Now, I have seen Joey get smacked around by Jack Thames, but it's of not that Thames also has very good posture despite flirting with being in bad position to draw his opponent out. But, Joey fought another guy in the WCK with poor posture in general and spanked him.

So I challenge you all to find a fight like this where posture makes a HUGE difference.

 

[Discipulus]

As in most of Kubo's recent fights. He doesn't necessarily hold that posture all the time, but he sinks back into a good defensive stance when he feels threatened, so that he rarely gets hit flush. And his positioning is always great. I used to see him fight and think he was getting into serious wars, but the more I watch him now, I realize that he's either not there to be hit, or isn't getting hit as hard as the other guy. So he usually emerges from seemingly frenetic fights unscathed, often with a KO win.

 

[PeterPain]

Ben Yelle oppen up alot in his combinations.
He will toss a left bring his left elbow high and lean foreward on his straight right exposing himself wide open for just about anything.

I said many time I despise conservatism in the trading game but there is a limit to it. When he does that right punch he is oppen for anything, if he kept his left arm side way or didn't lean foreward that much he wouldn't have drop the fight. As for the flying knee... If a train comes your way will putting your hands in front stop it? Nope, it won't. Thanks for trying.

Looking for video, of course posture make or break fights.

 

[Discipulus]

That was a really fun fight, by the way. I really like Pagliuso's use of the crazy overhand right. He comes forward a bit too much on it, but he seems to have a very good sense of where the ending position of that punch puts him, so he only throws it when he's confident that he'll wind up in a place that won't get him countered.

 

[PeterPain]

Andy Souwer/Faldir Chahbari comes to mind

Any Nathan Corbett fight, he usualy keeps composure.

 

[Sinister]

Ben Yelle oppen up alot in his combinations.
He will toss a left bring his left elbow high and lean foreward on his straight right exposing himself wide open for just about anything.

I said many time I despise conservatism in the trading game but there is a limit to it. When he does that right punch he is oppen for anything, if he kept his left arm side way or didn't lean foreward that much he wouldn't have drop the fight. As for the flying knee... If a train comes your way will putting your hands in front stop it? Nope, it won't. Thanks for trying.

Looking for video, of course posture make or break fights.

But this is about WHY Ben leaned forward. Not just that he did. Ben's posture is pretty atrocious. Every time he punches his shoulders come too far forward and it creates a pull on his neck. Neck is pulled, head comes up. He ends up backwards, chest down and chin up. Due to there not having been any effective correction or strengthening of that aspect of his physiology, he'll ALWAYS have that problem. What this meant against Joey is that he had TWO areas of attack, from underneath using his own positioning, or over the top due to Ben's head coming up. And he took good advantage of BOTH.

 

[Discipulus]

Also, I want to highlight something that Joey Pagliuso does that speaks to something I've been noticing recently.

I've been thinking of how kicks relate to punches in their mechanics. And one corollary that I have noticed is how the uppercut relates to kicks. The right round kick, especially the low kick, is similar mechanically to what Sinister calls the "Cuban" uppercut, or a normal right hand, in that as the technique is thrown, weight shifts to the left hip and the head moves downward and off-center to that side. The right front kick on the other hand (not the teep, but the front kick, mind you) is very similar to the standard uppercut, in which the head stays off-center to the right during the punch.

I point this out because, at 5:16 of the video (and in a slow motion replay at 7:51), Pagliuso is looking for the rear uppercut. Instead, Ben Yelle backs out of range, and Pagliuso throws the right front kick from the exact same position. Just shows how the two techniques work as the same attack from different ranges. Just thought I'd help show how good kickboxing relates to good boxing on many levels.

 

[Emites]

 

[Sinister]

Very good example Emites. Chandler isnt even what Id call a good MMA striker, Alvarez looked to have more tools. However, he was never in good enough of positions to use them. And when he was in bad positions, they were HORRIBLE, giving Chandler every advantage simply due to his better posture.

 

[Discipulus]

That's actually something I never noticed about that fight. Eddie gets dropped all the time. Perhaps now we know why.

 

[Sinister]

Right-o.

 

[Emites]

Very good example Emites. Chandler isnt even what Id call a good MMA striker, Alvarez looked to have more tools. However, he was never in good enough of positions to use them. And when he was in bad positions, they were HORRIBLE, giving Chandler every advantage simply due to his better posture.

One thing I really like about Chandler is his ability to keep his chin protected.
"Chin down, Chest Up" as you said. That's what saved him in the third round when he was getting beat on

Not to derail the thread, but what do you think Chandler is lacking in his striking

 

[ssullivan80]

So I challenge you all to find a fight like this where posture makes a HUGE difference.

Excellent thread. Here ya go, a couple K1 fights that I believe follow your point in this thread, and they are both SP's but drastically different in style.





And another recent MMA example where posture IMO played a significant role. Condit was considered the better striker in this bout.

 

[Discipulus]

Holy hell! The ref should have stopped that LeBanner-Abidi match in the third.

 

[SummerStriker]

And another recent MMA example where posture IMO played a significant role. Condit was considered the better striker in this bout.

I don't know if I agree that posture was the issue for Condit. I go through something similar to what happened in this fight alot - that being that I'm not that good of a grappler. If I think that I will have trouble stopping a takedown from a clinch because someone is too good, it really constrains how I move. Condit is like me +2. I really dig how he does things.

I think his issue was that GSP, being great, had reflexes that were too good and too much toughness to pick apart by sniping and he needed to engage more - but he was afraid to engage because he didn't want to get caught. His best strikes on GSP are when he really went for it, like the head kick combo.

I like Condit's stance. I think it is very versatile and functional.

 

[ssullivan80]

I don't know if I agree that posture was the issue for Condit. I go through something similar to what happened in this fight alot - that being that I'm not that good of a grappler. If I think that I will have trouble stopping a takedown from a clinch because someone is too good, it really constrains how I move. Condit is like me +2. I really dig how he does things.

I think his issue was that GSP, being great, had reflexes that were too good and too much toughness to pick apart by sniping and he needed to engage more - but he was afraid to engage because he didn't want to get caught. His best strikes on GSP are when he really went for it, like the head kick combo.

I like Condit's stance. I think it is very versatile and functional.

I think Condit's greatest weakness in his stand-up is his stance and posture. His striking is very versatile but he tends to get sloppy in his combos and leave's his chin hanging out there far to often IMO. I'd much prefer to see his posture and stance similar to Cerrone's. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DaGenius]

Haha. Ive been watching all these old WCK Muay Thai fights..Largely to see old friends either fighting or cornering when they were younger

Hands up, chin down.

 

[Sinister]

I don't know if I agree that posture was the issue for Condit. I go through something similar to what happened in this fight alot - that being that I'm not that good of a grappler. If I think that I will have trouble stopping a takedown from a clinch because someone is too good, it really constrains how I move. Condit is like me +2. I really dig how he does things.

I think his issue was that GSP, being great, had reflexes that were too good and too much toughness to pick apart by sniping and he needed to engage more - but he was afraid to engage because he didn't want to get caught. His best strikes on GSP are when he really went for it, like the head kick combo.

I like Condit's stance. I think it is very versatile and functional.

I have to say I really am developing a distaste for a fighter's ability being attributed to "reflexes." GSP is quick, no doubt about it, but he's a very difficult guy to PUT in position to be hit cleanly. That's not just because of his reflexes, that's because he understand distance and control of it. If you have to risk everything to hit a guy, you're not in good position. If he's making you work twice as hard from your beginning position to hit him, your beginning position needs to be adjusted.

 

[ssullivan80]

I have to say I really am developing a distaste for a fighter's ability being attributed to "reflexes." GSP is quick, no doubt about it, but he's a very difficult guy to PUT in position to be hit cleanly. That's not just because of his reflexes, that's because he understand distance and control of it. If you have to risk everything to hit a guy, you're not in good position. If he's making you work twice as hard from your beginning position to hit him, your beginning position needs to be adjusted.

Well said. Reflexive ability is really more valuable when your the guy getting caught out of position than the otherwise.

 

[SummerStriker]

I have to say I really am developing a distaste for a fighter's ability being attributed to "reflexes." GSP is quick, no doubt about it, but he's a very difficult guy to PUT in position to be hit cleanly. That's not just because of his reflexes, that's because he understand distance and control of it. If you have to risk everything to hit a guy, you're not in good position. If he's making you work twice as hard from your beginning position to hit him, your beginning position needs to be adjusted.

I agree with you. I was lazy with my description of GSP's skill.