best American bjj practitioners?

[thewhiterooster]

who do you think the 5 best bjj players are in the usa right now? 5 best of all time? (gi and no gi)

in no particular order:

now?
gordon ryan
keenan
Garry tonon
jt torres
mike musumemi

honorable mention:
orlando sanchez
nicky ryan

---

all time?
Rafael Lovato jr
Jeff glover
Robert drysdale
bill cooper
bj penn

honorable mention:
dean lister
Eddie bravo
bob bass
Ryan hall
matt serra

 

[mataleaos]

I'm gonna break your rules and go 6 and 6 instead of 5 and 5. Sorry.

Right now?

JT Torres
Mikey M.
Keenan Cornelius
Gordon Ryan
Edwin Najmi
Mackenzie Dern

Previous generation

Rafael Lovato Jr.
BJ Penn
Bill Cooper
Dean Lister
Matt Serra
Jeff Glover

I almost said Robert Drysdale but I don't know if he's considered American or not.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think Jeff Glover's achievements get overstated a bit just because everyone likes him so much. He's a good competitor, but I don't think he's ever won a really major tournament.

 

[thewhiterooster]

I think Jeff Glover's achievements get overstated a bit just because everyone likes him so much. He's a good competitor, but I don't think he's ever won a really major tournament.

you're probably right. and yeah I'm guilty of liking him a lot and probably holding him in higher regard than his accomplishments have shown. but "best American bjj practitioner" could be subjective. not necessarily ranking them based strictly off success in competition. I just really like his game, but I could swap him out for dean lister on my list.

 

[thewhiterooster]

Right now?

JT Torres
Mikey M.
Keenan Cornelius
Gordon Ryan
Edwin Najmi

Previous generation

Rafael Lovato Jr.
BJ Penn
Bill Cooper
Dean Lister
Matt Serra

I almost said Robert Drysdale but I don't know if he's considered American or not.

he's born in Utah and represented america in Abu Dhabi and the worlds. 'merican enough for me.

 

[Uchi Mata]

you're probably right. and yeah I'm guilty of liking him a lot and probably holding him in higher regard than his accomplishments have shown. but "best American bjj practitioner" could be subjective. not necessarily ranking them based strictly off success in competition. I just really like his game, but I could swap him out for dean lister on my list.

Lister has won ADCC twice. He's definitely one of the most successful American grapplers. Certainly more so than Glover.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'd probably add MacKenzie Dern to the list too.

 

[mataleaos]

you're probably right. and yeah I'm guilty of liking him a lot and probably holding him in higher regard than his accomplishments have shown. but "best American bjj practitioner" could be subjective. not necessarily ranking them based strictly off success in competition. I just really like his game, but I could swap him out for dean lister on my list.

I almost put Glover on my lidt. His biggest accomplishment is guillotine choking Robson Moura at ADCC for bronze and he was on fire that tournament. If he ate as clean as he did for that comp and had focused that hard his entire career, I have no doubt he would have been a multi-time ADCC finalist if not a winner at some point. He took training very seriously at that point in time (2011) and for the most part he never trained like a lot of these super elite guys trained.

I give Glover a lot of props for what he's given to the community. He helped to spread a lot of knowledge on the deep half guard, triangle chokes, rolling back attacks, and his darce/guillotine game. So even if the guy never won Worlds or ADCC, he helped develop and pioneer a lot of what is considered fundamental stuff in 2018, and I think he's overlooked for his technical contributions to the community.

 

[Based and White Pilled]

Dean Lister ftw

 

[dsdoubled]

BJ probably could've been the best/most decorated but then who knows if he would've been so special in MMA.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I almost put Glover on my lidt. His biggest accomplishment is guillotine choking Robson Moura at ADCC for bronze and he was on fire that tournament. If he ate as clean as he did for that comp and had focused that hard his entire career, I have no doubt he would have been a multi-time ADCC finalist if not a winner at some point. He took training very seriously at that point in time (2011) and for the most part he never trained like a lot of these super elite guys trained.

I give Glover a lot of props for what he's given to the community. He helped to spread a lot of knowledge on the deep half guard, triangle chokes, rolling back attacks, and his darce/guillotine game. So even if the guy never won Worlds or ADCC, he helped develop and pioneer a lot of what is considered fundamental stuff in 2018, and I think he's overlooked for his technical contributions to the community.

This is why I put him in the same category as Ryan Hall, which is 'more influential than great'. The first deep half material I ever saw was his DVD, and it changed my game (deep half became my go-to for blue and most of purple belt, and it's still one of my main escape transitions). You have to remember too that when those Paragon guys really got big they were doing a lot of no-gi specific stuff which wasn't really emphasized by the community at the time. I tend to think of Americans leading the emphasis on no-gi as a separate way of practicing BJJ, and they were at the forefront of that movement (along with, giving credit where it's due, Eddie Bravo).

 

[cjd]

(1) Gianni Grippo probably deserves an honorable mention at least. He's a two-world medalist at black, 3x pan champion (plus a close out), nogi pan champion, nogi world medalist, 2x world pro champion, in addition to numerous titles at IBJJF opens.

(2) While I largely agree with the assessment of Glover (and Hall), it's worth mentioning that the most active periods of their career predate the rise of the current IBJJF hegemony. Grappler's Quest titles were a *big* deal back in the day (obviously not on par with IBJJF worlds, but probably more prestigious than an IBJJF open), and they both have closets full of those. Guys who started after 2010 and 2011 really don't seem to appreciate that. There's a bit of an apples-to-oranges thing; it was a very different era, but I'd put their careers at that point up there against all but the biggest colored belt superstars of today.

 

[JustTheTip]

In BJJ:
Tim Spriggs
Keenan Cornelious
Rafael Lovato
Micheal M.
DJ Jackson
Orlando Sanchez
Gianni Grippo
JT Torres
Mackenzie Dern


Some of you guys' lists are complete BS. They have people who haven't medalled in any significant BJJ tournament since Purple.

 

[mataleaos]

This is why I put him in the same category as Ryan Hall, which is 'more influential than great'. The first deep half material I ever saw was his DVD, and it changed my game (deep half became my go-to for blue and most of purple belt, and it's still one of my main escape transitions). You have to remember too that when those Paragon guys really got big they were doing a lot of no-gi specific stuff which wasn't really emphasized by the community at the time. I tend to think of Americans leading the emphasis on no-gi as a separate way of practicing BJJ, and they were at the forefront of that movement (along with, giving credit where it's due, Eddie Bravo).

I agree 100%

 

[mataleaos]

(1) Gianni Grippo probably deserves an honorable mention at least. He's a two-world medalist at black, 3x pan champion (plus a close out), nogi pan champion, nogi world medalist, 2x world pro champion, in addition to numerous titles at IBJJF opens.

(2) While I largely agree with the assessment of Glover (and Hall), it's worth mentioning that the most active periods of their career predate the rise of the current IBJJF hegemony. Grappler's Quest titles were a *big* deal back in the day (obviously not on par with IBJJF worlds, but probably more prestigious than an IBJJF open), and they both have closets full of those. Guys who started after 2010 and 2011 really don't seem to appreciate that. There's a bit of an apples-to-oranges thing; it was a very different era, but I'd put their careers at that point up there against all but the biggest colored belt superstars of today.

Great points regarding Grippo.

Honestly though I'm not sure Glover and Hall should be linked together. Hall may be more influential but Glover stopped competing in IBJJF after he won either Pans or Worlds at brown belt (I forgot which) but he got bronze at ADCC in 2011 with 3 submissions along the way, and he's beaten guys like Caio Terra and Robson Moura. Glover was one of the first guys to boycott the IBJJF, although he did compete under their rules when he beat Caio Terra in the gi and lost to Bruno Malfacine on points in superfights.

I don't really think it's fair to put Glover's resume and Hall's resume in the same folder. I do agree though that their influence supersedes their accomplishments on paper.

 

[Balto]

(2) While I largely agree with the assessment of Glover (and Hall), it's worth mentioning that the most active periods of their career predate the rise of the current IBJJF hegemony. Grappler's Quest titles were a *big* deal back in the day (obviously not on par with IBJJF worlds, but probably more prestigious than an IBJJF open), and they both have closets full of those. Guys who started after 2010 and 2011 really don't seem to appreciate that. There's a bit of an apples-to-oranges thing; it was a very different era, but I'd put their careers at that point up there against all but the biggest colored belt superstars of today.

Yeah people forget that Americans did not do IBJJF much at all until about ten years ago. There were hardly any events in America. The Pans and Worlds were both in Brazil, and traveling there for those tournaments was pretty much our exposure to IBJJF. It was also far and expensive so not many Americans were traveling to Brazil period. It was seen as a luxury to be able to make the trip.

The NAGA and GQ invitational brackets and superfights were a really big deal in that era. Also ADCC North American trials drew some of the best American talent.

It's kind of crazy to think back to then compared to now. People are always complaining about the IBJJF, but they have no idea how much better run things became once they entered the American tournament scene.

Those old NAGA and GQ events were nuts. It seemed like the rules were changing from tournament to tournament, if not match to match. There seemed to be no standard on whether you could grab clothing in no gi or not. That led to some people grappling in nothing but tight vale tudo shorts to minimize the effect of any potential clothing grabs.

There was no set competition area either. For those superfights they'd just have people gather around the middle of the mat and sit in a circle cross legged. However big that was in the middle was the area. When competitors went to the edge they'd just keep going into the crowd. Maybe the ref would stop it or maybe the crowd would just push them back like an underground pit fight or something.

It was kind of cool in a way, but it's a lot nicer to go to organized tournaments now versus the old school FEMA disaster camp with a mat in the middle style that ran past midnight.

 

[Uchi Mata]

In BJJ:
Tim Spriggs
Keenan Cornelious
Rafael Lovato
Micheal M.
DJ Jackson
Orlando Sanchez
Gianni Grippo
JT Torres
Mackenzie Dern


Some of you guys' lists are complete BS. They have people who haven't medalled in any significant BJJ tournament since Purple.

TLI associations aside, it is unfair to exclude those guys. Especially Spriggs, his career has been very solid. Even though he hasn't won any big tournaments at black belt, in this era of single superfight style cards you have to look not only at tournament wins but also who someone has beaten, and he's beaten guys like Keenan, Murilo Santana, Leo Nogueira, Luis Panza, Erberth Santos, and Yuri Simoes. Some big names on that resume.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yeah people forget that Americans did not do IBJJF much at all until about ten years ago. There were hardly any events in America. The Pans and Worlds were both in Brazil, and traveling there for those tournaments was pretty much our exposure to IBJJF. It was also far and expensive so not many Americans were traveling to Brazil period. It was seen as a luxury to be able to make the trip.

The NAGA and GQ invitational brackets and superfights were a really big deal in that era. Also ADCC North American trials drew some of the best American talent.

It's kind of crazy to think back to then compared to now. People are always complaining about the IBJJF, but they have no idea how much better run things became once they entered the American tournament scene.

Those old NAGA and GQ events were nuts. It seemed like the rules were changing from tournament to tournament, if not match to match. There seemed to be no standard on whether you could grab clothing in no gi or not. That led to some people grappling in nothing but tight vale tudo shorts to minimize the effect of any potential clothing grabs.

There was no set competition area either. For those superfights they'd just have people gather around the middle of the mat and sit in a circle cross legged. However big that was in the middle was the area. When competitors went to the edge they'd just keep going into the crowd. Maybe the ref would stop it or maybe the crowd would just push them back like an underground pit fight or something.

It was kind of cool in a way, but it's a lot nicer to go to organized tournaments now versus the old school FEMA disaster camp with a mat in the middle style that ran past midnight.

Certainly true that NAGA and GQ were a much bigger deal than people recall, but it's important to remember too that they were largely just strong regional tournaments. The best Brazilians didn't come up for them, and at the time there was even less parity than there is now between Brazilian and American grapplers. Jeff Glover won a lot of GQs, but how many elite guys did he have to beat to win those belts? If you look at his record, at least the incomplete list BJJ Heroes has, his best wins are Robson Moura and Caio Terra. Great wins for sure, but Caio's a lot smaller than him. Robson is his only win against an elite guy at his weight class. Like I said, Glover was a big influence on the American BJJ scene, but (partially for reasons outside his control with all the big tournaments being in Brazil during his competitive peak) he's nowhere near an all time great based on his actual achievements.

 

[Balto]

Americans and Brazilians definitely did not compete together as much back then, but I'm not entirely sure there was so much less parity. It just seems that way because we think of IBJJF Pans and Worlds as the top guys, and no Americans were there to even win.

But if you look at ADCC (which the Americans have always done), there is no parity gap between the current decade and the last. In the last decade the Americans had ADCC golds from Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr, Jeff Monson, Dean Lister, and Robert Drysdale. In the current decade we've had Orlando Sanchez, Mackenzie Dern, JT Torres, and Gordon Ryan. It's not much different at all.

I think the Americans have always been at a high level but just weren't really competing with the Brazilians as much previously.

 

[thewhiterooster]

Americans and Brazilians definitely did not compete together as much back then, but I'm not entirely sure there was so much less parity. It just seems that way because we think of IBJJF Pans and Worlds as the top guys, and no Americans were there to even win.

But if you look at ADCC (which the Americans have always done), there is no parity gap between the current decade and the last. In the last decade the Americans had ADCC golds from Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr, Jeff Monson, Dean Lister, and Robert Drysdale. In the current decade we've had Orlando Sanchez, Mackenzie Dern, JT Torres, and Gordon Ryan. It's not much different at all.

I think the Americans have always been at a high level but just weren't really competing with the Brazilians as much previously.

if I may dove tail off this post, in 1995 there was no mundials. the Brazilians decided to come to Southern California and start the pan ams (which basically were the mundials back then). one reason they wanted to do it in America is to mop the floor with everyone and show the Americans how their proud countries sport is done. marcio feitosa was undefeated at the time. bob bass beat him in the finals. the Brazilians were so distraught and embarrassed with this, they did not keep a record of the '95 pan am games. their records start in '96.