best American bjj practitioners?

[Italianissimo]

Chris Moriarty, at least in the top 15. Unfortunately he retired when still very young

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Finally, having done those old tournaments, IBJJF tournaments are a revelation. You can show up an hour before your division starts, check your weight, get warm, and go home two hours later. You can literally squeeze a tournament in between things on a Saturday morning/afternoon, instead of waiting around for 15 hours to have a match.

How times have changed, if you win a scooter I don't think the IBJJF will let you do victory laps with it on the mat anymore either

 

[lechien]

What about Hillary Williams?

She won 4 wolrds and 6 pan ams

 

[mataleaos]

he may not have won any of the top titles but his style is much to playful he isnt a serious competitor sadly but u cant deny him back from 2007-20010 watch him vs leo viera when he was at the top from 2007-20010 he was a top 4 guy at his division by far no gi

if you are gonna include bill cooper then you absolutely have to include jeff who did alot better than bill did in his career

What?!

This is just false. Glover may be more famous and he may be a bigger name in the community, but even Jeff will tell you that he wasn't able to sub Bill once Bill got past blue belt. Bill was a legit prodigy and by all accounts one of the most naturally talented grapplers of all time.

Bill is one of 6 Americans in the male adult division to make the finals at Worlds. BJ Penn, Rafael Lovato Jr. Bill Cooper. JT Torres. Edwin Najmi. Mikey M.

That's it. Well I guess you can include Robert Drysdale. But it's a small club.

Jeff never even competed in the Worlds at black belt. Bill made the finals in 2008 against Sergio Moraes and mowed through 4 guys in probably the most packed division to get there (middleweight), and submitted world champs like Otavio Sousa.

Unfortunately Bill has sort of become the American Terere, and drug addiction and knee surgeries sort of cut his potential short, but there was a time when Bill going into any tournament could have easily been a favorite after Marcelo Garcia. I'm still bummed we never got to see those 2 compete. That match would have been a barn burner. Jeff is the man too so not hating.

One of the best matches of all time

 

[JustTheTip]

It is unfair to include "potential" in any argument of the best. Plenty of competitors in every sport peaked early and assuming a competitor would continue to improve at the same rate throughout their career is unrealistic. Some of you guys lists are leaving off competitors who grinded for years winning against the top talent in BJJ and instead including guys that haven't won one major BJJ tournament at BB.

 

[mataleaos]

It is unfair to include "potential" in any argument of the best. Plenty of competitors in every sport peaked early and assuming a competitor would continue to improve at the same rate throughout their career is unrealistic. Some of you guys lists are leaving off competitors who grinded for years winning against the top talent in BJJ and instead including guys that haven't won one major BJJ tournament at BB.

Are you talking about mine? Because the list isn't just about accomplishments, although that's the main thing I'm looking at. Although I'm also leaving a bit of room for creativity, contributions to the overall game and the community, innovations to the sport, etc. I'm sure if you go by accomplishments alone, you could change my list a lot. But TS asked about who we thought was the best, and to me it's not just accomplishments. For example, I almost included Dave Camarillo.

Anyways I feel like my list was pretty fair when looking at all of the above. Of course it's not a perfect list, but I'm not just going b accomplishments. In no particular order.

For now I said:

JT Torres (ADCC champion, Worlds finalist, Pans winner)

Mikey M. (3rd American male to win Worlds. You might say it's not in a super deep weight class and wouldn't argue with you. He did win the chip though so I felt like putting him here.)

Keenan Cornelius (ADCC runner-up; Pans champion, has contributed a ton of techniques and knowledge to the grappling community.)

Gordon Ryan (1st American ADCC 88kg winner and ADCC Absolute runner-up)

Edwin Najmi (One of 6 American men to make the adult black belt finals, and I find his game to be entertaining as fuck to watch. I think he will do big things.)

Mackenzie Dern (ADCC champ and Worlds champ)

DJ Jackson and Tim Spriggs should probably be on this list replacing some of these names if we're only talking about accomplishments. I admit that. They're both beats and have great accomplishments. Justin Rader maybe too should be up there.

For my previous era list I said:

Rafael Lovato Jr. (Worlds champ and evolved his game several times over the years and is still very relevant to this day)

BJ Penn (Worlds champ and although he left the sport very early, he repped it in the UFC at the highest levels of MMA and I'm fine with putting him in the list).

Bill Cooper (Worlds runner-up and helped innovate the deep half guard, the darce choke, leg riding back attacks, rolling kimuras and guillotines, and is one of the most creative grapplers of all time. Has a lot of 'first in IBJJF histories" too.)

Robert Drysdale (ADCC champ and Worlds champ; also pioneered a lot of stuff that we take for granted today)

Dean Lister (ADCC weight class and ADCC Absolute champ. More of a strict no-gi guy but pioneered a lot of leg lock stuff.)

 

[JustTheTip]

I wasn't referring to you specifically but I disagree with your list.
The question is who is the best in BJJ. List Gordon Ryan's accomplishments in BJJ.What innovations has he brought to BJJ? I don't believe he has any. If the question was best Americans in Grappling, then maybe Gordon Ryan would belong. It is unfair to say guys with no accomplishments in BJJ at BB(Hall,Gordon Ryan,etc) are among the greatest when there are guys out there that have been beasting against the best and winning in BJJ for years now that aren't. If the thread was "What BJJ do you like the most?" then your list would make sense.

 

[Silverblur]

I wasn't referring to you specifically but I disagree with your list.
The question is who is the best in BJJ. List Gordon Ryan's accomplishments in BJJ.What innovations has he brought to BJJ? I don't believe he has any. If the question was best Americans in Grappling, then maybe Gordon Ryan would belong. It is unfair to say guys with no accomplishments in BJJ at BB(Hall,Gordon Ryan,etc) are among the greatest when there are guys out there that have been beasting against the best and winning in BJJ for years now that aren't. If the thread was "What BJJ do you like the most?" then your list would make sense.

I think most people are including adcc as BJJ, and really the only distinction is semantic.

 

[Ryo]

I would put Sean Roberts in this discussion. But I am biased.

 

[freakroor]

Jake Shields is up there for sure

 

[mataleaos]

I wasn't referring to you specifically but I disagree with your list.
The question is who is the best in BJJ. List Gordon Ryan's accomplishments in BJJ.What innovations has he brought to BJJ? I don't believe he has any. If the question was best Americans in Grappling, then maybe Gordon Ryan would belong. It is unfair to say guys with no accomplishments in BJJ at BB(Hall,Gordon Ryan,etc) are among the greatest when there are guys out there that have been beasting against the best and winning in BJJ for years now that aren't. If the thread was "What BJJ do you like the most?" then your list would make sense.

I mean Gordon won adcc twice. He’s not a catch wrestler or Sambo guy right? Adcc isn’t a “Bjj tournament” but look at the names that he beat there? They also aren’t catch or sambo guys. They’re Bjj guys right?

I just didn’t see Gordon at ADCC beat Danis, Romulo, Xande, Keenan, Cyborg, Jones, Aly, and go the distance with Pena and beat Yuri shortly after, and think to myself that Gordon wasn’t a top 5 American. All those guys are BJJ guys too, and not Catch, Judo, or Sambo guys. I get that the ADCC rule-set isn't pure BJJ, but if you're a BJJ guy beating top BJJ guys, then are you not a top BJJ guy?

So legit question. If BJJ only means gi, and Gordon beat Dani’s no-gi, but Danis has more Bjj accomplishments, then would you put Danis over Gordon? Because unlike Gordon, Danis won Worlds at brown belt and has a few notable gi wins at black belt too. Would that make Danis the better/more accomplished BJJ practitioner?

 

[mataleaos]

I would put Sean Roberts in this discussion. But I am biased.

Roberts is awesome. I can't tell you how many times I watched this highlight as a blue belt to get motivated!

 

[tekkenfan]

What?!

This is just false. Glover may be more famous and he may be a bigger name in the community, but even Jeff will tell you that he wasn't able to sub Bill once Bill got past blue belt. Bill was a legit prodigy and by all accounts one of the most naturally talented grapplers of all time.

Bill is one of 6 Americans in the male adult division to make the finals at Worlds. BJ Penn, Rafael Lovato Jr. Bill Cooper. JT Torres. Edwin Najmi. Mikey M.

That's it. Well I guess you can include Robert Drysdale. But it's a small club.

Jeff never even competed in the Worlds at black belt. Bill made the finals in 2008 against Sergio Moraes and mowed through 4 guys in probably the most packed division to get there (middleweight), and submitted world champs like Otavio Sousa.

Unfortunately Bill has sort of become the American Terere, and drug addiction and knee surgeries sort of cut his potential short, but there was a time when Bill going into any tournament could have easily been a favorite after Marcelo Garcia. I'm still bummed we never got to see those 2 compete. That match would have been a barn burner. Jeff is the man too so not hating.

One of the best matches of all time

i dont doubt he doesnt sub bill bills alot bigger too doesnt he walk around in low 190s or high 180s? vs jeffs 140s t 150s

 

[mataleaos]

i dont doubt he doesnt sub bill bills alot bigger too doesnt he walk around in low 190s or high 180s? vs jeffs 140s t 150s

Nah man Bill walks in the 170s and Glover walks around in the 150s, although he's a vegan now so he's probably walking in the 140s. Bill has been competing at lightweight and featherweight (once) since he returned in 2016. He just did lightweight this weekend.

Franjinha and Jeff used to always hope Bill would lose his matches so he would train more. he would show up once a week and wreck everyone then go skate and ride bikes for the rest of the week.

Regardless, Bill is the more accomplished gi guy. Jeff has more no-gi accomplishments. But ironically after a lot of training with both of them I think Jeff has a more unique gi game and Bill has a more unique no-gi game.

 

[tekkenfan]

u should kn

Nah man Bill walks in the 170s and Glover walks around in the 150s, although he's a vegan now so he's probably walking in the 140s. Bill has been competing at lightweight and featherweight (once) since he returned in 2016. He just did lightweight this weekend.

Franjinha and Jeff used to always hope Bill would lose his matches so he would train more. he would show up once a week and wreck everyone then go skate and ride bikes for the rest of the week.

Regardless, Bill is the more accomplished gi guy. Jeff has more no-gi accomplishments. But ironically after a lot of training with both of them I think Jeff has a more unique gi game and Bill has a more unique no-gi game.

ow that 20 pounds even is a huge difference especially in smaller divisions

but theres a difference in accomplishments and whos the best or most talented some guys dont compete near as much

 

[mataleaos]

u should kn

ow that 20 pounds even is a huge difference especially in smaller divisions

but theres a difference in accomplishments and whos the best or most talented some guys dont compete near as much

You're preaching to the converted. That's been my argument for throwing out some names in my list that maybe aren't as big or as accomplished as some others.

 

[mataleaos]

I wasn't referring to you specifically but I disagree with your list.
The question is who is the best in BJJ. List Gordon Ryan's accomplishments in BJJ.What innovations has he brought to BJJ? I don't believe he has any. If the question was best Americans in Grappling, then maybe Gordon Ryan would belong. It is unfair to say guys with no accomplishments in BJJ at BB(Hall,Gordon Ryan,etc) are among the greatest when there are guys out there that have been beasting against the best and winning in BJJ for years now that aren't. If the thread was "What BJJ do you like the most?" then your list would make sense.

My bad I missed the bolded.

I don't know that he has innovated a ton of stuff that he wouldn't credit to John Danaher.

The thing with Gordon is like...I used to doubt him big time. But at some point I realized I was being a hater. No matter what you think about his personality, the kid came out and forced everyone to talk about him among the greats right now. He hasn't done anything at black belt in the gi yet, but I would suggest that it's crazy to think that he won't. He's going to have success in the gi. A guy with his grappling ability and work ethic isn't going to magically start to suck just because he puts on a jacket and pants instead of shorts and a shirt.

Also after rolling with him in the gi and feeling his pressure and that it's comparable to every other top guy I've ever rolled with I would say he is going to do really good in the gi whenever he debuts.

 

[yetanother]

Keenan is by far the american who influenced gi BJJ the most. The worm guard is a super legit guard that's used by (and against) the very best.
Musumeci Mikey has the newest gi world championship (OTOH he has it at roosterweight)

 

[mataleaos]

Keenan is by far the american who influenced gi BJJ the most. The worm guard is a super legit guard that's used by (and against) the very best.
Musumeci Mikey has the newest gi world championship (OTOH he has it at roosterweight)

I would also agree that Keenan is the most influential gi grappler for America. For no-gi I think probably the Paragon dudes with the early aspects of 'modern jiu-jitsu' and now the Renzo/DDS guys. But for the gi I don't think any Americans have innovated and brought as much to the community in terms of technique as Keenan has.

 

[JustTheTip]

I think most people are including adcc as BJJ, and really the only distinction is semantic.

Huge difference. The question was who is the best American in BJJ. ADCC is a different sport. Same reason why we aren't including Olympic Wrestlers,Judo,or Sambo champions. Gordon's main attacks are illegal in BJJ. So how is he the greatest in BJJ?