Best Judo throws to KO or wind the oppponent (why Judo still beats BJJ and most other styles)

[TheMaster]

Could you elaborate on judo in a multiple attacker situation?

Could you elaborate how judo excels with guillotines / front head locks?

I was going to post some good gifs to illustrate but will just explain.
So if we are talking Judo itself in multiple attacker situations, basic template is foot sweep or throw the attacker. As had been described if done properly he should be finished or hurt on landing, if not then soccer kick or stomp to finish.

If against more than one guy the ability to remain standing when you throw is of immense value. It should he obvious you cannot afford to tie yourself to one guy for more than a few moments. A good impact throw or leg sweep will allow you to immediately move to face the next attacker.
So basic template: footsweep/throw -stomp/soccer kick if necessary- move and repeat to next guy. Mix in standup palm strikes also on the feet, aim to break the nose or palm heel the jaw or behind the ear (dont damage those hands with closed fists).

Obviously using Judo TDD to keep it standing is itself vital and using standup is an option if you have standup skills.

Front headlocks/guilotines/standing holds - Judo excels in standing grappling so the control and off balancing and risk of throw means the setups are going to be better and more solid than done by a guy who does not have that skillset or ability and is just looking for the submission.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

I have trained with and competed against (retired) division 1 wrestlers and black belt judokas. I’ve never felt more helpless or in fear of a KO slam than a high level Greco Roman wrestler.
This thread is reminding me that pulling guard might be the best way to survive a fight against a person at this level.
I might have to take my chances with the lava and hypodermic needles.
At the same time, my wrestling isn’t that bad. Even wrestling in my pajamas against judokas, my low single is pretty effective. I can bail out to a safe guard position if I need to.
This is all theoretical of course. I haven’t been in a street fight since high school. I’ve never used my jiu Jitsu skills for self defense other than when I was attacked by a 6 year old kid.

 

[Ghost in the Dark]

 

[KnightTemplar]

Nice finish. But the bouncer probably got arrested and charged with Actual Bodily Harm. Or even GBH depending on how serious the moron's injuries were.

One of the first things any bouncer learns is never fight outside the club itself unless you really have to. If you throw someone out and they start ranting and threatening you from the street - let them. Once you leave the doorway to engage some retard, you've effectively lost any claim to self-defence you can make.

I've no sympathy for the idiot who got curb-stomped. If you're dumb enough to pick a fight with a bouncer, you deserve everything you get.

 

[dormammu]

Hory shit, he dieded

 

[Chungungo]

In Montreal I met this russian judoca who used to Te Guruma everyone and was a perfect point between hard landing but not so dangerous as an Osoto Gari. The last one can get you in jail, Harai the same.

 

[TheMaster]

Concussion with Yoko Otoshi (2:30)



Is telling how far removed modern mma is in some regards from real fighting that sacrificial throws (i.e where you go down and 'sacrifice' position using momentum and leverge to throw the opponent) are basically non existant in mma. The true purpose of these throws is to ko and stun (risk of killing someone on concrete) opponent by throwing them at force to the ground.
Soft mats mean the power of these techniques and their real world applicability is basically invisible.

 

[kpoz12]

 

[StanClarker]

Concussion with Yoko Otoshi (2:30)



Is telling how far removed modern mma is in some regards from real fighting that sacrificial throws (i.e where you go down and 'sacrifice' position using momentum and leverge to throw the opponent) are basically non existant in mma.

Haven't learned these yet, but I've been made aware of them. The sacrifice throws are not recommended for a 'real' fight as far as I can tell. The reason is simple. They (you) sacrifice your standing position and commit to the technique by 'sacrifice,' which puts you in an inferior position control wise, temporarily.

The true purpose of these throws is to ko and stun (risk of killing someone on concrete) opponent by throwing them at force to the ground.

I don't know where you got that. All judo throws follow the overall guiding objectives. And one of those cardinal rules is safety in design. Safety in full execution. I guess it's PC in MMA forums to confuse Judo with it's Ju Jutsu fore-bearers.

Soft mats mean the power of these techniques and their real world applicability is basically invisible.

This is true. But we in our dojo are exposed to the circumstances of falling on hard wood gym floors. It's surprising how wll one can take or make such a fall with the proper technique.

Bottom line though, Judo throws are not meant to KO or injure the uke or recipient. PERIOD.

What happened in the video post was that the players are resisting too much instead of utilizing greater mobility (boxing equivalent of footwork), and hand releases & changing grips, setting up counter throws, etc. This is where Judo competition players stray from the object of the art, which is 'gentleness,' as opposed to forcing technique by physical aggression. I saw a great video on YT with a Japaneses Judo pro demonstrating this against a sequence of all kinds of opponents.

The latter is what you are after in Judo. Technique > Aggression. Gentleness against Aggression.

 

[StanClarker]

a, ha. Over @ TSF, they ragged on me for saying Judo would melt in front of a striker. In MMA actually, the reverse is more accurate given the absolute awful striking form of typical MMA strikers.

Thank you.

 

[StanClarker]

Try it on a freestyle wrestler see how it goes for you.

I think wrestlers are far more likely to gain a KO. They are physically driving, slamming the opposition into the ground. So I agree with this and earlier posts about the dangers of wrestling

It's also true, the posts, that altering the standard Judo technique can cause it to be more dangerous &/or potentially damaging to the opposition, as some of the examples posted show.

In a self defense situation, the inability of the attacker to fall contributes to or will cause injury on a sliding scale depending on what happens. Same for these tournament or competition players who struggle directly against their opponents throw, compromising their break fall and the proper, safe nature of the throwing action.

Interesting thread. Also shows the bias here for the aggressive, full contact type behavior sported by MMA.

 

[Chungungo]

Haven't learned these yet, but I've been made aware of them. The sacrifice throws are not recommended for a 'real' fight as far as I can tell. The reason is simple. They (you) sacrifice your standing position and commit to the technique by 'sacrifice,' which puts you in an inferior position control wise, temporarily.


I don't know where you got that. All judo throws follow the overall guiding objectives. And one of those cardinal rules is safety in design. Safety in full execution. I guess it's PC in MMA forums to confuse Judo with it's Ju Jutsu fore-bearers.


This is true. But we in our dojo are exposed to the circumstances of falling on hard wood gym floors. It's surprising how wll one can take or make such a fall with the proper technique.

Bottom line though, Judo throws are not meant to KO or injure the uke or recipient. PERIOD.

What happened in the video post was that the players are resisting too much instead of utilizing greater mobility (boxing equivalent of footwork), and hand releases & changing grips, setting up counter throws, etc. This is where Judo competition players stray from the object of the art, which is 'gentleness,' as opposed to forcing technique by physical aggression. I saw a great video on YT with a Japaneses Judo pro demonstrating this against a sequence of all kinds of opponents.

The latter is what you are after in Judo. Technique > Aggression. Gentleness against Aggression.

You´re a human being that can decide, is pretty easy to throw somebody in a bad way if you want, specially in self defense.

This is why I prefer body shots if I have to strike someone in a street fight. They'll double up but still be conscious, so less chance of them splitting their head open when they hit the ground. RNC is more difficult to apply, but even safer, as I can just put the schmuck in the recovery position once he's out.

My instructor worked as a bouncer, and his go-to move was Thai leg kicks. He could drop most people with one shot, and they were in too much pain to continue fighting. But there weren't any serious injuries. So no police involvement

He´s smart, I have always think the same and regular people cannot stand a good low kick, leave alone 2 or 3.

 

[Headkicktoleg]

$10 says I can pull guard faster than you can throw me.

 

[Blake_UK]

I think wrestlers are far more likely to gain a KO. They are physically driving, slamming the opposition into the ground. So I agree with this and earlier posts about the dangers of wrestling

It's also true, the posts, that altering the standard Judo technique can cause it to be more dangerous &/or potentially damaging to the opposition, as some of the examples posted show.

In a self defense situation, the inability of the attacker to fall contributes to or will cause injury on a sliding scale depending on what happens. Same for these tournament or competition players who struggle directly against their opponents throw, compromising their break fall and the proper, safe nature of the throwing action.

Interesting thread. Also shows the bias here for the aggressive, full contact type behavior sported by MMA.

I think the problem with Judo (and other MAs that are also sports) is that the sporting side has watered down both the techniques and the ethos too much.

Judo throws trained purely for self defence purposes are hard as hell. I used to to train Krav with a Judo brown belt (who was also an ammy boxer) and the throws were trained specifically to “end” a street fight (we trained in t shirts and he would instruct the thrower to hold the neck/jaw for example to slam the head).

And a lot of the BJJ fanboys don’t like to admit that it suffers as much from this problem as any other. Pulling guard should be illegal frankly.

 

[StanClarker]

Holy cow, I'm popular today.

I think the problem with Judo (and other MAs that are also sports) is that the sporting side has watered down both the techniques and the ethos too much.

I've run across this theme in my meanderings. But actually what I've seen to date, is that it's MMA that's watered down.

Judo throws trained purely for self defence purposes are hard as hell. I used to to train Krav with a Judo brown belt (who was also an ammy boxer) and the throws were trained specifically to “end” a street fight (we trained in t shirts and he would instruct the thrower to hold the neck/jaw for example to slam the head).

I read a little bit about Jigoro Kano and you're off base 'cause you've missed the point. As confirmed re MMA by so many of the negative comments I received here about Judo philosophy. I've addressed your concern when joined Sherdog. Why I picked Judo. Context, simply is your answer.

And a lot of the BJJ fanboys don’t like to admit that it suffers as much from this problem as any other. Pulling guard should be illegal frankly.

Sure. Same w sacrifice throws. IMO. But you've moved to picking the art apart instead of mastering it's offerings. Boxing has weak points. But for a striking style that takes one from zero to pragmatism, it's tops as far as I can see. And for sure, one can rely one of it's aspects and easily be let down.

I can see all of your points, in looking at BJJ as an outsider, that whole guard thing worried me. This is the benefit in Judo concentrating on the throw, not getting mixed up in all that mess. Counter view is that the BJJ guard serves a purpose... just like the Judo serves a purpose. Just like the boxing guard serves a purpose for self defense even though I would leave them at the gym.

This is a very interesting thread topic particularly because Judo isn't that popular comparatively speaking. TKD and the like are all over the place where I live. Boxing is accessible. BJJ has dropped off and is now largely done by the MMA outfits here are part of their style component.

 

[Blake_UK]

I've run across this theme in my meanderings. But actually what I've seen to date, is that it's MMA that's watered down..

I agree that MMA has watered down many other styles but to be fair its mostly for the better imo in terms of real world applicability. Yes that is not always the case as its still a sport - the 1v1 aspect/soft floor/timed rounds/no "nasty" things like throat or groins strikes etc etc - but its still better in terms of time in vs results than the vast majority of TMAs.

I read a little bit about Jigoro Kano and you're off base 'cause you've missed the point. As confirmed re MMA by so many of the negative comments I received here about Judo philosophy. I've addressed your concern when joined Sherdog. Why I picked Judo. Context, simply is your answer.

I am coming more from the straight self defence perspective. I know their are different styles/ethos in Judo (as with almost all MAs) but for me any self defence training should focus on one thing only; finishing the fight in your favour as quickly and safely as possible. My point is taking a selection of the best Judo throws and tweaking them to a street style is highly effective (more so than a lot of BJJ imo).

But you've moved to picking the art apart instead of mastering it's offerings.

That's true (and I am not knocking those that take the time to really engage) but the reality of modern life is most peeps have the opportunity to train 2 or 3 x a week, maybe 4 or 5 if they are lucky. Plus you need to do cardio and weights. If I could I genuinely would love to spend a year in Thailand or somewhere similar just training 6 hours a day in MT and Judo/wrestling (or whatever your preferred MA) but that isn't gonna happen. So for 90% of peeps SD needs to be easy to learn, quick to understand and simple to apply (without being an A+ athlete).

Counter view is that the BJJ guard serves a purpose... just like the Judo serves a purpose. Just like the boxing guard serves a purpose for self defense

I agree it all serves a purpose - its about prioritizing the most effective parts and getting rid of the weak links. A lot of TMAs have fallen down when they've been really tested because they have failed to do this.

Judo isn't that popular comparatively speaking

Which is a big shame imo. I think partly that is down to the fact that Olympic judo is the predominate form and partly that BJJ has been so successful. Plus TMA's have a bad rep and Judo has wrongly been lumped in with stuff like TKD.

 

[StanClarker]

I agree that MMA has watered down many other styles but to be fair its mostly for the better imo in terms of real world applicability. Yes that is not always the case as its still a sport - the 1v1 aspect/soft floor/timed rounds/no "nasty" things like throat or groins strikes etc etc - but its still better in terms of time in vs results than the vast majority of TMAs.

Yeah, that's the MMA party line... expected. And I'm not impressed with the MMA outfits in my area. Though I must add MMA has not a huge following, limited here.

 

[StanClarker]

I am coming more from the straight self defence perspective. I know their are different styles/ethos in Judo (as with almost all MAs) but for me any self defence training should focus on one thing only; finishing the fight in your favour as quickly and safely as possible. My point is taking a selection of the best Judo throws and tweaking them to a street style is highly effective (more so than a lot of BJJ imo).

I don't see the problem you do. Neither our judo dojo nor the boxing club nearby are selling self defense expertise. I addressed your issue with my first posts about the girl boxing challenge. We junior judoka see it all pretty much the same way as those boxing girls.

And to follow on, that Hard2Hurt guy had some interesting videos starting out talking from a police officer perspective. The people in my circle basically understand you tailor the art to specific circumstances. Same idea that a boxing straight feed right into Morote? Seoi Nage.

TMA gets a bad rep, and also an exploited one by MMA because you have these all people finding instant salvation in some philosophical sounding karate style name... and so on. It's only adult to look into what you're doing... not just going through some rote activity.

And strangely enough when I began posting here with that thoughtfulness about Judo, I was put down. MMA has it's own brand of McDojo-ism... I'm sparring, I'm hitting heavy swinging tire bags... I'm doing real martial arts. NAh, you're just using muscle.

 

[StanClarker]

I am coming more from the straight self defence perspective. I know their are different styles/ethos in Judo (as with almost all MAs) but for me any self defence training should focus on one thing only; finishing the fight in your favour as quickly and safely as possible. My point is taking a selection of the best Judo throws and tweaking them to a street style is highly effective (more so than a lot of BJJ imo).

I only looked into BJJ survey wise, yet I don't see the criticism you do. I also think the BJJ in MMA makes for some of the better martial arts.

Sure, and I said this when I started posting that Judo was kinda under-rated. Then the response was I was being too TMA. You have the BJJ advocates who say BJJ is developed more for practicality.

Both statements are correct. But first note there is great overlap between Judo & BJJ on many fronts. Second, Judo's emphasis which I won't repeat is aimed at doing something different and potentially more effective than certain technique or whatever in BJJ. BJJ likewise.

Personally I like Judo better than BJJ... but in being thoughtful, I would never write off BJJ. The only thing I categorically don't like about BJJ is the Gracie ego (which isn't limited to the Gracie's) position of BJJ is the best martial art. That is outright false. And same has been proven in MMA sporting wise. And same w wrestling w none other that Askren's death defying take down against Maz.

 

[StanClarker]

That's true (and I am not knocking those that take the time to really engage) but the reality of modern life is most peeps have the opportunity to train 2 or 3 x a week, maybe 4 or 5 if they are lucky. Plus you need to do cardio and weights. If I could I genuinely would love to spend a year in Thailand or somewhere similar just training 6 hours a day in MT and Judo/wrestling (or whatever your preferred MA) but that isn't gonna happen. So for 90% of peeps SD needs to be easy to learn, quick to understand and simple to apply (without being an A+ athlete).

For sure, the limited time & energy TMA, certainly Judo, make allowance for that. At the same time it becomes or can become a trap for the casuals. That what I liked about that girl boxing challenge where these gals were coming from non-fighter, non-combatant even down to personality. And the boxing workouts were a big wake up call. Some just didn't warm up to that... and so remained 'girlish.' Same w people donning a gi and bowing, etc. then walking through the class stuff thinking they're going places.

We don't do kata at our dojo even though another Judo club here does kata. Personally, I don't see the need for kata in Judo. I think it's better we start w philosophy of the founder... and learn the techniques properly... how they work, not just step a, b,...etc. And I don't think Judo kata is required for black-belt. Maybe depends on school.