BJJ and Judo have a lot to learn from each other.

Judo:

Turtle position:
Background:
This is completely anti-Jiu-Jitsu and I understand and agree. As you might already know, the turtle position sometimes is not that simple to defeat (in a quick way), in other words, in Judo if the opponent doesn't do anything (in a timely manner) against a turtle defense then the referee will restart the match standing. Judokas that are very good standing usually don't like to spend to much energy on the ground so they just turtle until the referee do something about it.
Solution:
Penalty whenever the opponent turtles and/or give more newaza (ground grappling) time, if the Judoka that turtles doesnt want newaza then he should restart the match standing via escaping and get back to his feet.

Jiu-Jitsu
Background:
While I understand that the true spirit of BJJ is the ground grappling, the fact of the matter is that in order to go to the ground you need to have a very good standing grappling as well. Of course if you are competing against opponents without grappling/wrestling experience (e.g. gracies) then you don't need an exceptional at standing grappling but nowadays it's pretty obvious how elite BJJ guys are having a very hard time to get a fight to the ground when they are fighting other good wrestlers/grapplers that decide to not go to the ground with them.
Solution:
Some people think they should penalize pulling guard, which it's pretty stupid to be honest. Pulling guard is still a technique that might or not might work. What needs to change is very clear and I know this will never happen since it's against the "spirit" of BJJ but come on think about it, if the opponent doesn't want to go to the ground why you would force him to do so? That's unnatural just like Judo restarting to standing is unnatural as well. What would be the benefit here? well, the guys that are exceptional on the ground will find out that they are having a very hard time and will need to improve their standing game, and the guys who prefer the standing game will find out that sooner or later they will end up on the ground and they will need improve their ground game as well. This will only result in much better well-rounded grapplers.

I would think you could give them a limited amount of time to attack from guard. They can't use it as a defensive. I don't think laying on your back with your legs wrapped around a guy is very pleasing from a spectator standpoint, nor does it promote a good strategy for self defense.

However, the same issue I have with the gripping rules in that you have to attack in a certain period of time (Judo) may transfer over. I don't know how to implement a rule without making it overly prone to penalties. Perhaps remove the clock from both sports? That way stalling isn't a thing.

Point accumulation, submission or pin only?
 
I've thought about taking up Judo again. I liked boxing training but the fitness side of the training was so intense!
 
For which was so intense --- Judo or boxing?
Boxing! I was only learning it for self defence but the 1st 45 mins at least was a hard warm up followed by running and then circuits, consisting of push ups and sit ups and lunges and all sorts. I'm used to circuit training, but they catch you slowing down for a second and an instructor would on on your ass!

It was a legit boxing club with amateurs fit as a fiddle.

I tried Judo as a young child, which was just a brisk warm up followed by just technique from what I remember.
 
Boxing! I was only learning it for self defence but the 1st 45 mins at least was a hard warm up followed by running and then circuits, consisting of push ups and sit ups and lunges and all sorts. I'm used to circuit training, but they catch you slowing down for a second and an instructor would on on your ass!

It was a legit boxing club with amateurs fit as a fiddle.

I tried Judo as a young child, which was just a brisk warm up followed by just technique from what I remember.

Hell yeah, training to someone else's tempo can be a pain. When the coaches call out combinations and have me keep pounding the bag it can drag. He loves the jab hook from orthodox (1-3). For a three minute round I'm throwing a lot of punches back to back on the same arm. Talk about burn.

Boxing is a lot about relax-contract. You can build up a lot of carbon with the pace. Then we start huffing and puffing.

Grappling (judo) has periods of isometric contraction. We are contracting but we're not moving. I think this allows us to slow down our ventilation, and perhaps not tire out so quickly?

Judo can be a bitch too, if you keep doing back to back Randori. lol

I might get back into it as well. I like that I can use my muscular strength too with grappling.

If I get back into it, one thing I will carry over from boxing to Judo is the jump rope. Skipping rope is a valuable tool for any combat sport/martial art I think. lol
 
You may not have noticed, but judo is a sport. It's almost entirely focused on how to win judo matches and take medals home.

sure and it's a great sport. just responding that from my literal experience of a judo/bjj learning exchange, the judo school had a lot more to learn from bjj and less to offer in return. the main problem as I saw it was that the judo instructors had many misconceptions about what BJJ was. for example, it was clear that they thought that BJJ guys only started from the knees or pulled guard (our head coach was a state champion wrestler, and we almost always start standing in sparring). further, I had to really pry to get their head BB to explain to me how to properly pin somebody from kesa gatame. however, whenever we went to their school we taught things like attacking the turtle from The Truck, attacking from butterfly guard, over/under passing -- all things that I think scaffold really well from existing judo knowledge.
 
sure and it's a great sport. just responding that from my literal experience of a judo/bjj learning exchange, the judo school had a lot more to learn from bjj and less to offer in return. the main problem as I saw it was that the judo instructors had many misconceptions about what BJJ was. for example, it was clear that they thought that BJJ guys only started from the knees or pulled guard (our head coach was a state champion wrestler, and we almost always start standing in sparring). further, I had to really pry to get their head BB to explain to me how to properly pin somebody from kesa gatame. however, whenever we went to their school we taught things like attacking the turtle from The Truck, attacking from butterfly guard, over/under passing -- all things that I think scaffold really well from existing judo knowledge.
For sure. With some exceptions, judo very much exists in its own bubble now. BJJ guys, in my experience, are much more often thinking about how they can incorporate moves from other places.

Having said that, the judo club you mentioned seems a bit of a strange one.
 
My uneducated opinion about the current state of stand up in jiu jitsu is that the IBJJF (whose power has beginning to decrease) has a vested interest in keeping it distinct from wrestling and judo. I would not be surprised if one of it's goals is to cooperate with the IOC and eventually turn BJJ into an olympic sport. To avoid what was going to happen to wrestling (i.e. discontinuation) they have to not make it too much like another type of grappling art.

Interestingly I remember reading about how some judo tournaments are allowing more play on the ground to accommodate the popularity of bjj.

There is absolutely zero, 0 chance that BJJ will ever be an olympic sport. We already have the original which is Judo in the olympics so why would they introduce a Judo substyle like BJJ, especially one focussed on groundfighting which they already thought was too boring for the olympics and demephasized in Judo.

What COULD happen in your second point is that there may be a rule amendment in olympic Judo that allows more newaza ground fighting. Then more Judoka might train BJJ to sharpen their ground game that would be great.
 
There is absolutely zero, 0 chance that BJJ will ever be an olympic sport. We already have the original which is Judo in the olympics so why would they introduce a Judo substyle like BJJ, especially one focussed on groundfighting which they already thought was too boring for the olympics and demephasized in Judo.

What COULD happen in your second point is that there may be a rule amendment in olympic Judo that allows more newaza ground fighting. Then more Judoka might train BJJ to sharpen their ground game that would be great.

It's fair to say that Bjj has evolved far beyond being a sub style of Judo. Bjj is an evolving and ever changing art, Judo is a pretty stagnated art (in the states it's experiencing a slow but steady death).

As for Bjj becoming an Olympic sport, given its rapid rise in popularity, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. Also I wouldn't be surprised if people prefer watching it over Olympic Judo.
 
As for Bjj becoming an Olympic sport, given its rapid rise in popularity, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. Also I wouldn't be surprised if people prefer watching it over Olympic Judo.

The only people that watch Olympic Judo are the major Judo nations, just like the only people that watch BJJ comps are the people training it - neither are spectator sports. I believe BJJ would benefit from keeping away from the Olympics.
 
There is absolutely zero, 0 chance that BJJ will ever be an olympic sport. We already have the original which is Judo in the olympics so why would they introduce a Judo substyle like BJJ, especially one focussed on groundfighting which they already thought was too boring for the olympics and demephasized in Judo.

What COULD happen in your second point is that there may be a rule amendment in olympic Judo that allows more newaza ground fighting. Then more Judoka might train BJJ to sharpen their ground game that would be great.

Equally possible is that "grappling" (gi and no gi) is added to the program under the auspices of UWW as a sub style of wrestling.

There's also the World Combat games, The World Beach games etc
 
I rather prefer a BJJ that has a rule of no going to ground unless thrown or taken down. Makes for more exciting matches and a good carry-over to MMA/ SD. Let's face it, pulling guard in MMA matches with PRIDE rules is dangerous, what more if it's a street scenario.
 
I rather prefer a BJJ that has a rule of no going to ground unless thrown or taken down. Makes for more exciting matches and a good carry-over to MMA/ SD. Let's face it, pulling guard in MMA matches with PRIDE rules is dangerous, what more if it's a street scenario.
Stalling one the feet needs to be addressed first. We have too much zero action standup yeasg matches in bjj already. Just see the Ramos vs lepri debacle that got acb cancelled.
 
I rather prefer a BJJ that has a rule of no going to ground unless thrown or taken down. Makes for more exciting matches and a good carry-over to MMA/ SD. Let's face it, pulling guard in MMA matches with PRIDE rules is dangerous, what more if it's a street scenario.

Why, because of that sacro saint ''what would happen in a street fight''. Most of the action is on the ground. Most of those important takedowns end up with the guy under in half guard which is pretty much what would happen if he had pulled guard. I know that some throws will get you straight to side control but you don't see a lot of them at high level.

BJJ is a guard passing vs sweeping contest. The gi makes it really tough to pass the guard, this is the main issue why some matches are boring.

In sub only and in most no gi events there's people pulling guard all the time and they are stuffed with action. The boring part is when they try to get the takedown and nothing happens for 2-3 minutes.
 
It's fair to say that Bjj has evolved far beyond being a sub style of Judo. Bjj is an evolving and ever changing art, Judo is a pretty stagnated art (in the states it's experiencing a slow but steady death).

As for Bjj becoming an Olympic sport, given its rapid rise in popularity, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. Also I wouldn't be surprised if people prefer watching it over Olympic Judo.

It has evolved beyond it roots but it is still basically Judo newaza.
The general public do not care to see nor understand the intricacies of submission grappling. They understand throws.
If they wanted to have groundfighting in the olympics, rather than introduce a new sport that few people get where their just rolling on the ground, they can just add more time for groundwork in Judo. You have the best of both worlds, elite throws and standing grappling and more Judo guys adding ground skills from BJJ to their arsenal.
If BJJ 'gets in' to the olympics it will be as an added ingredient to Judo groundwork.

And lol at the idea of BJJ ever competing even a fraction with Judo globally.
 
It has evolved beyond it roots but it is still basically Judo newaza.
The general public do not care to see nor understand the intricacies of submission grappling. They understand throws.
If they wanted to have groundfighting in the olympics, rather than introduce a new sport that few people get where their just rolling on the ground, they can just add more time for groundwork in Judo. You have the best of both worlds, elite throws and standing grappling and more Judo guys adding ground skills from BJJ to their arsenal.
If BJJ 'gets in' to the olympics it will be as an added ingredient to Judo groundwork.

And lol at the idea of BJJ ever competing even a fraction with Judo globally.

Nah, BJJ is what Judo would have been if Kano didn't hate newaza and just let Fusen Ryu and the Kosen ruleset run wild and unchecked for decades. BJJ absorbs new things, and Judo makes a rule to avoid dealing with new things.

I will admit that the Olympics and the rules associated with it have changed Judo for the worst, so its probably for the best that BJJ stay far away from it.

As for BJJ competing with Judo globally, give it time. Like I said, Judo is on its last legs here in the states, and there's evidence of its decline in other parts of the world as well.
 
Bjj and Judo goes well together.

The other instructor in my club is bjj BB 1 degree and judo 2 Dan
We have 3 judo BB and one judo brown belt that train with us bjj: they are progressing in bjj ranking: they are level brown, purple or blue bjj belt.
 
Nah, BJJ is what Judo would have been if Kano didn't hate newaza and just let Fusen Ryu and the Kosen ruleset run wild and unchecked for decades. BJJ absorbs new things, and Judo makes a rule to avoid dealing with new things.

I will admit that the Olympics and the rules associated with it have changed Judo for the worst, so its probably for the best that BJJ stay far away from it.

As for BJJ competing with Judo globally, give it time. Like I said, Judo is on its last legs here in the states, and there's evidence of its decline in other parts of the world as well.

No, BJJ is what Judo is if they forgot how to throw and spent all their time rolling and did challenge fights on the Brazilian beaches.

Not surprising Judo has declined in the US. They have a strong national wrestling program already and the exposure to mma means people have heard of BJJ. But the US is the exception.

Globally, if you want a complete system with standing grappling and submissions Judo is the only choice. Maybe can supplememt with some BJJ later for those who want to up their ground game.

Judo is part of the education system in alot of places and has many national training and competition programmes and olympic and world opportunities. In Russia for example Judo is on the up and up.
No one really cares globally what a niche sport in the US snd Brazil is doing with BJJ and that wont change.
What I think would be good is more BJJ seminars and exchange programmes in the Judo circuit, to learn from the ground specialist nephews of Judo and what they have added to newaza.
 
No, BJJ is what Judo is if they forgot how to throw and spent all their time rolling and did challenge fights on the Brazilian beaches.

They didnt forget how to throw, they had to switch to takedowns and wrestling because of Vale Tudo and NHB fighting. The exact same thing would have happened to Judo if not for direct interference of Kano who worked to prevent Judo from adopting effective grappling techniques from outside sources. The Brazilians embraced those outside influences and made the overall art better.

Not surprising Judo has declined in the US. They have a strong national wrestling program already and the exposure to mma means people have heard of BJJ. But the US is the exception.

Well that and wrestlers tended to hand Judokas their lunch before Judo changed their rules.
Globally, if you want a complete system with standing grappling and submissions Judo is the only choice. Maybe can supplememt with some BJJ later for those who want to up their ground game.

How can Judo be a complete grappling or submission system when it doesn't teach leg locks or takedowns from below the waist?
 
They didnt forget how to throw, they had to switch to takedowns and wrestling because of Vale Tudo and NHB fighting. The exact same thing would have happened to Judo if not for direct interference of Kano who worked to prevent Judo from adopting effective grappling techniques from outside sources. The Brazilians embraced those outside influences and made the overall art better.



Well that and wrestlers tended to hand Judokas their lunch before Judo changed their rules.


How can Judo be a complete grappling or submission system when it doesn't teach leg locks or takedowns from below the waist?

Your premise is ludicrous. So BJJ 'evolved' to point of having no takedowns, aside from a rudimentary double or single leg from wrestling. They did not have high level throwing ability from the beginning and this aspect was neglected and deteriorated almost completely as the years went by.

The 'exact same thing' would not have happened to Judo. Maybe they could have included some wrestling takedowns but why include that in the Judo curiculum and make it wrestling which operstes alot of the time on different principles?

The difference is clear, most BJJ rolling starts from a ground position. Judo bouts start standing in randori and from ground if training newaza. BJJ as it is essentially focussing on only half the Judo system basically forgoes any time with randori for newaza.
Also Judo does have takedowns below the waste, not in competition but they are still used and trained such as moroto gari.

Yes no leglocks but then BJJ hardly had them either until recently. So yes, Judo coukd follow suit and just become a kind of grappling mma like BJJ has had to but as they had a much more solid complete system to begin with there wasnt the need to bring in outside influences to make up for the glaring holes in BJJ such as the very poor standing grappling.
 
Back
Top