BJJ and Judo have a lot to learn from each other.

[Seefoo]

Your premise is ludicrous. So BJJ 'evolved' to point of having no takedowns, aside from a rudimentary double or single leg from wrestling. They did not have high level throwing ability from the beginning and this aspect was neglected and deteriorated almost completely as the years went by.

I said they evolved away from Judo throws because jacket wrestling is all that effective when fighting bare-chested people in NHB, or living in a warm climate like Brazil where people rarely wear jackets and kimonos. So you had more wrestling-style takedowns emerge in BJJ. We saw a lot of that with Royce and Rickson in their NHB fights.

The 'exact same thing' would not have happened to Judo. Maybe they could have included some wrestling takedowns but why include that in the Judo curiculum and make it wrestling which operstes alot of the time on different principles?

Actually it would have because wrestling takedowns and throws are more efficient and easier to learn than highly technical Judo throws. This is why Kano and others put rules in place to purposely limit the spread of wrestling and grappling in Judo. No such rules existed in Bjj, which is why the sport is slowly turning more and more into submission grappling than the art that the Gracies showed the world in 1993.

The difference is clear, most BJJ rolling starts from a ground position. Judo bouts start standing in randori and from ground if training newaza. BJJ as it is essentially focussing on only half the Judo system basically forgoes any time with randori for newaza.
Also Judo does have takedowns below the waste, not in competition but they are still used and trained such as moroto gari.

Except competition Bjj also starts standing, and there's plenty of elite Bjj practitioners who have excellent takedown skills. There's also plenty of Bjj instructors who have wrestling bases and teaching wrestling to their students, so whatever stereotype that Bjjers have about having bad takedowns is a stereotype that isn't going to be very applicable in a few years.

Yes no leglocks but then BJJ hardly had them either until recently. So yes, Judo coukd follow suit and just become a kind of grappling mma like BJJ has had to but as they had a much more solid complete system to begin with there wasnt the need to bring in outside influences to make up for the glaring holes in BJJ such as the very poor standing grappling.

Nice excuse. It doesn't matter when and where something entered the system, what matters is where the systems stand TODAY. Today you'd have to be nuts to believe that Judo is a more complete grappling system than Bjj when it doesn't offer No-gi, below the waist takedowns, striking defenses, leg-locks, etc.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

.

Nice excuse. It doesn't matter when and where something entered the system, what matters is where the systems stand TODAY. Today you'd have to be nuts to believe that Judo is a more complete grappling system than Bjj when it doesn't offer No-gi, below the waist takedowns, striking defenses, leg-locks, etc.

this is a great point. the open source nature of modern BJJ contrasts with the more restrictive attitudes in modern judo. in my school, and i think this is typical of most bjj schools, we have judo throws, wrestling takedowns, aikido wristlocks, etc. If somebody brings in a new technique or training method that proves effective, no matter what it is, then it will quickly spread.

 

[Seefoo]

this is a great point. the open source nature of modern BJJ contrasts with the more restrictive attitudes in modern judo. in my school, and i think this is typical of most bjj schools, we have judo throws, wrestling takedowns, aikido wristlocks, etc. If somebody brings in a new technique or training method that proves effective, no matter what it is, then it will quickly spread.

Not only that, but Bjj schools will bring in Judo, MMA, and Sambo guys to run seminars at their gyms all the time which further encourages cross-training.

I don't think there's any Judo dojos are offering money for Bjj world champs or MMA grapplers to run seminars. I'll be happily surprised if I'm wrong.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

What has Seefoo been smoking?

 

[DatCutman]

What has Seefoo been smoking?

Life is balance. Light and dark. Yin and yang. Existence and void. Male and Female.

The Master and Seefoo.

 

[efficientjudo]

Not only that, but Bjj schools will bring in Judo, MMA, and Sambo guys to run seminars at their gyms all the time which further encourages cross-training.

I don't think there's any Judo dojos are offering money for Bjj world champs or MMA grapplers to run seminars. I'll be happily surprised if I'm wrong.

I think that part of this is down to mindset around paying for training - BJJ practitioners are accustomed to paying significant money for training and seminars, Judokas are used to not having to pay much at all, so the notion of paying extra for seminars generally doesn't go down well (hence can't afford to bring instructors in)
Teaching Judo in Judo clubs, I've never been asked for a private lesson - but within a couple of weeks of teaching Judo at a BJJ club, I had multiple beginners asking me if I can teach them private lessons.

 

[fighthug]

You said too much wrong. I think you do not know the BJJ. Penalize the guard position, who said that and where? As well ? This is the position that most has variation of opponent's ending in the BJJ.
The BJJ has all the falls of JUDO. For JUDO comes from the BJJ.
P.S: The Gracie did not fight fighters who did not know anything about ground or falls.
In UFC 1 Ken Shamrock knew ground fighting and falls. Dan Severn at UFC 4 knew falls and finalizations.
Rickson Gracie not even talking he crowded against Yoshinori Nishi who was a pupil of Masahiko Kimura

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Do you have some examples of elite bjj fighters having issues with taking folks to the ground?

As for Guard Pulling, I love it. It is simple and effective. If non-bjj grapplers have issues with it, too bad.

In BJJ? No, because the rules heavily discourage not following to the ground. In MMA its such a serious problem (guard pulls simply don't work when striking is allowed, or even when opponents are allowed to disengage) that every elite BJJ fighter who tries MMA studies wrestling (or occasionally judo). That alone should tell you how ineffective guard pulls are in general.

Guard pulling is simple and effective under BJJ rules. Its extremely ineffective under any other rule set (and the fewer rules, the less effective it becomes).

 

[Seefoo]

In BJJ? No, because the rules heavily discourage not following to the ground. In MMA its such a serious problem (guard pulls simply don't work when striking is allowed, or even when opponents are allowed to disengage) that every elite BJJ fighter who tries MMA studies wrestling (or occasionally judo). That alone should tell you how ineffective guard pulls are in general.

Guard pulling is simple and effective under BJJ rules. Its extremely ineffective under any other rule set (and the fewer rules, the less effective it becomes).

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

It occasionally works, but its success rate is extremely low (well under 10%). Go watch fights by Maia, Werdum, Roger Gracie, and any number of other elite BJJ'ers who lost against good strikers because they couldn't get the fight to the ground with guard pulls (or anything else). The success rate of guard pulls in MMA is much lower than double legs. If guard pulls worked even half as well as double legs then no BJJ'er would ever study wrestling (or even striking) - they'd just guard pull and finish the fight on the ground. However in practice they all study both wrestling and striking - because guard pulls are very low percentage.

Guard pulls have pretty much 100% success rate in BJJ competition, and less than 10% in MMA. Ask yourself why the difference.

 

[Seefoo]

It occasionally works, but its success rate is extremely low (well under 10%). Go watch fights by Maia, Werdum, Roger Gracie, and any number of other elite BJJ'ers who lost against good strikers because they couldn't get the fight to the ground with guard pulls (or anything else). The success rate of guard pulls in MMA is much lower than double legs. If guard pulls worked even half as well as double legs then no BJJ'er would ever study wrestling (or even striking) - they'd just guard pull and finish the fight on the ground. However in practice they all study both wrestling and striking - because guard pulls are very low percentage.

Guard pulls have pretty much 100% success rate in BJJ competition, and less than 10% in MMA. Ask yourself why the difference.

So we've gone from Guard Pulls not working at all in MMA to them working around 10% of the time...

Let's keep those goal posts moving!

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

So we've gone from Guard Pulls not working at all in MMA to them working around 10% of the time...

Let's keep those goal posts moving!

Well, I said less than 10% of the time, not 10% of the time. Beyond that, saying something doesn't work in MMA (or in most other things) means its very low percentage. Almost everything works on occasion. Closing your eyes and throwing a punch works less than 10% of the time too, but its not considered a good technique because it sometimes lands.

 

[SUPERGRAPPLER]

Judo, and the rules can get mad irritating. Gripping rules, defensive posture, etc.

BJJ is more lax, which I like. However, I prefer stand up grappling. It's weird, like them both for different reasons.

Same here!

 

[Seefoo]

Well, I said less than 10% of the time, not 10% of the time. Beyond that, saying something doesn't work in MMA (or in most other things) means its very low percentage. Almost everything works on occasion. Closing your eyes and throwing a punch works less than 10% of the time too, but its not considered a good technique because it sometimes lands.

Are you basing your "below 10%" on anything outside of your personal opinion? Additionally, I'm willing to bet that guard pulling works far more than throwing punches while your eyes are closed.

 

[nefti]

I perfer the folkstyle ground control game to judo.

 

[Ride-Fly]

Not only that, but Bjj schools will bring in Judo, MMA, and Sambo guys to run seminars at their gyms all the time which further encourages cross-training.

I don't think there's any Judo dojos are offering money for Bjj world champs or MMA grapplers to run seminars. I'll be happily surprised if I'm wrong.

To your comment about judo schools being more isolated, I recently started judo and BJJ at a dojo that teaches both. Because it has organic BJJ in the dojo, the judo school doesn’t bring in BJJ seminars at additional cost per se. But what is awesome about this place is that even the judo classes focuses a lot on ne waza, due to the BJJ influence. Although my dojo doesn’t bill itself as a Kosen Judo dojo, it is basically that.

 

[RJ Green]

judo's stuffed itself so far up its own ass it's basically a suicide by asphyxiation.

 

[Your Noodly Master]

Shit thread, we have done this a bunch of times gah.

Bjj is a ground grappling art, putting more on focus on takedowns is just going to make it into shitty judo.
Let the judokas judoka and the jiujitsuieros jiu jitsu.
If you need to get more well rounded then cross train.

Seriously people need to stop thinking they are smarter then they are.

Mike drop