Break down the Philly Shell defense for me.

Jesus christ now i know why i stick to Muay thai!! .......This boxing science shit is harder than college calculus!!!
 
Thanks guys, hope this helps if you come across this style, i.e. Kabuki ever knocks on your front door lookin' for a scrap

any of that rant unclear to you guys in some spots? I wrote it in a bit of a hurry
 
I think most people who watch some boxing and or some MMA strikers will have seen the hitman stance sometime before.
 
any examples of where it's been used in MMA effectively? Or even with little success? I don't just mean guys dropping their left and being lazy, are there any skilled MMA guys who use the shoulder roll (and is it even practical for MMA?)
 
Brandon MacRea said:
any examples of where it's been used in MMA effectively? Or even with little success? I don't just mean guys dropping their left and being lazy, are there any skilled MMA guys who use the shoulder roll (and is it even practical for MMA?)
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I use this effectively in standup and mma style training against various levels of opponents. I have not fought sanctioned mma, but i have done various standup.

I have devloped my own technique getting a lot out of the lead of my opponents. This includes foot traps from silat, throws from judo and some greco as well.

I am a southpaw and in standup and mma i actually catch and ride or parry or evade their straight right and follow up with my own. During mma style work i use the lead hand to strike as said above also to fence creating space other uses include: take an underhook, bicep control, wrist control, control the hip, take a single, take a barsager, stuff an arm drag. My rear hand(left) i use to strike, fence, neck clinch, bicep control, wrist control, take an overhook, take an underhook. My preference is an overhook or underhook.
My lead leg is critical. I either footrap to do a modified silat kenjit, possibly stuffing my opponents lead arm as i slam him. OR i put my foot in the front to do a judo uki-goshi.
Arm drags to both sides can be effectivelly set up as well as duck unders.

My STRATEGY is to use it in an unmatched lead so if he is RIGHT i use it in a southpaw stance i work bilaterlaism so if he is LEFT i fight right. The problem with fighting lefties is that they are used to fighting rightys, but i prefer fighting unmatched and mix it to matched mid round.

If a guy studies you on film he may find counters, this is why combos are imperative and to make everything on the subconcious level. In general it is unconventional and if you study your own game you may make it work for you.

ok the secrets out?
 
Very interesting stuff, peregrine, thanks
 
another reason i use it is i train with sticks/blades and the chamber i often use is around mid stomach to chest. this makes my transition from armed to unarmed contact smoother.
 
triplex429 said:
jesus christ he's fast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ08H3PnLTA
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Yeah, hence the glaring weakness of the philly shell. People see mayweather and RJJ fighting this style, and set out to copy them. They fail to appreciate that it's generally a bad idea, unless you've got tremendous speed and reflexes.

The other weakness is that it leaves you much more open for takedowns and kicks, which is why you virtually never see it used in MMA or in MT.

IMHO, best left alone, unless you want the entertainment value or are a boxer with unusual speed.
 
Zankou said:
The other weakness is that it leaves you much more open for takedowns and kicks, which is why you virtually never see it used in MMA or in MT.

IMHO, best left alone, unless you want the entertainment value or are a boxer with unusual speed.
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can you elaborate on this. i do understand holding your lead hand across your stomach would leave you more vulnerable to getting your arm trapped possibly meaning a takedown or back attack, but a modified version of it similar to jun fan style stance still protects you from body kicks and the awareness of the need to block the back attack will likely prevent that.

please explain your point.
 
Brandon wrote a lot of great stuff about it. Like he said, most guys SHOULD NOT try it. I see a lot of new guys try to show off with this style and get tagged repeatedly. If you can become proficient at it or are using it as a way to bait or piss off your opponent, go for it. If you're just trying to look cool, let it go.
 
peregrine said:
can you elaborate on this. i do understand holding your lead hand across your stomach would leave you more vulnerable to getting your arm trapped possibly meaning a takedown or back attack, but a modified version of it similar to jun fan style stance still protects you from body kicks and the awareness of the need to block the back attack will likely prevent that.

please explain your point.
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It doesn't protect effectively against kicks. To protect against kicks, you want to be able to deflect them with both your forearm and your upper arm, cocked together in a "v", with the elbow pointed forward. If you just let somebody kick straight into your top arm, as will happen if you keep the lead hand low, it will (a) put your arm at serious risk of being broken; and (b) not really protect the body or head much at all, because the arm is going to be just knocked aside.
 
not everyone can use this style...i think u have to have a certain amount of athleticism or a combination of athleticism and body type.

not that people can't use it in instances or against certain people; but to consistently use it as ur chief style is a bad idea for people w/avg or below avg physical skills... or someone who in my exp does not have some lankiness/ranginess to him
 
good shit mcraea......I use this sytle alot.......intermixing it between my regular stance when just boxing. someof the pointer on fighing inside with it helped me, even thow now I know I have already seen it executed by just put it off ass instinct. Whne boxing I love the crouching style with fast feet, It makes way for low jabs, wild punches, and good feint setups.
awsome post.!!
 
Brandon MacRea said:
Never heard it called the "philly shell" but oh well. I read this thread before school this morning and it was on my mind all day. Rory, one of my trainers, uses this style very effectively so I have some limited experience with it, though I don't practice it myself, this is just what I've observed and found worked for him in sparring and worked against him when I'm in the ring with him.

Just want to say that most guys shouldn't even consider this style, while James Toney and Mayweather have had huge success with it (and De La Hoya even toys with it sometimes), those guys are the elite of the boxing world. This may not be too coherent as I'm just typing off of the top of my head and whatever goes into this post is just what popped into my thoughts at the time. Okay, here goes...

"Philly Shell"

basic things to note:

- Left hand held just above the waist, around stomach-height, held across the midsection (sometimes held at 90 degrees but not always) so that your left fist is nearly touching your right elbow

- right hand held high, you should be easily able to hold your chin between your thumb and pointer finger. Your elbow should be a couple of inches from the right of your belly button and very tight to your body

- Bury your chin in your left shoulder and roll it slightly forward

- your stance should be very "Sideways" (for boxers this is the norm but MMA guys may not be familiar with it so much - not saying you should use this in MMA of course hah), and you should carry your back foot somewhat in the bucket (slightly sideways)

- Very mobile stance, keep a "thumbtack under your heels" (i.e. don't plant your feet but you're not exactly on your toes either, there should be enough room for a thumbtack to fit under there). That isn't to say this style is restricted to outside fighting, James Toney makes great use of it on the inside, but it is primarily a defensive/counter-punching style and movement/footwork are both integral to good defense

- Keep your head in line or slightly outside of your opponent's left shoulder to further frustrate their attempts to establish the right hand when you're in close. This also works to put "pressure without punching" on your opponent, which will make them feel obligated to punch at such a close range. With your head outside of their left shoulders, slipping the jab is a small, easy movement, and their right hand is often not a viable shot in this position, so you're relatively safe. Still, being so close to them, they'll often feel obligated to throw leather (even in a less-than-ideal position like the one they're now in) which means more countering opportunities as they over-reach and get frustrated

some benefits I've noted with my limited experience with this style:

- jabbing from the waist (well not quite but it's from way down low) is very sneaky and will often catch your opponent and throw him off as it is a punch coming from below his field of vision. The punch you don't see is the one that hurts you, so a stiff jab can do some damage here as well as score consistently

- Left arm, being held so low, acts as an effective "shield" against body attacks (i.e. any efforts to hit that spleen as was discussed recently in another thread)

- inside fighting makes their body accessible to your short left hook. It won't be an overly powerful punch because you'll be somewhat crowded, but a) you'll score and b) body punches are about PLACEMENT not power, so don't think it won't hurt 'em. If you can create distance well with your left shoulder in addition to your "body shield" low-left, combined with effective use of the shoulder roll, it means you have little to worry about from their right side at all (where your left hook will be digging) other than the uppercut

- very solid defense if you can manage the shoulder roll, advanced head movement and right hand parry (however, often the shoulder roll will leave the punch glancing off of the crown of your head. It won't hurt, but it MAY score. Some of the advanced head movement tricks i.e. turn your turn away from a punch to move your chin out of range actually make the punch look more damaging that it is so be mindful that you will be undamaged physically, but it may hurt you in the judges eyes)

- big countering opportunities. The shoulder roll defense is used best to defend your opponent's cross and then twisting back with a right hand of your own (or an uppercut if you're in close) followed by a left hook to the body (as their right hand may be slow coming back, you could hit the liver and freeze them)

possible weaknesses to exploit (stuff that I've found that works when faced with these guys):
- If faced with this style, work their left shoulder HARD. Slam hooks and stiff jabs into the meat of their shoulder (doubling up from shoulder/head works nicely for either punch), being mindful of their right hand (turn your punches over fully to force your shoulder up to cover your chin against the cross). Try to keep outsider of their left shoulder (they'll be trying to same so it can end up you two jockeying for that sweet spot) so that it is aligned with your own left hand. This puts their "sneaky" low left in plain sight, right infront of you, forcing it to be your focus (considering the right hand is now less of a problem because you're so far to their left side) so you won't get caught and suprised by it. If you want to throw a right hand, that's fine and definitely does it's damage, just be wary of their shoulder roll/right hand counter - it's their bread and butter.

Eventually after a round or two of concentrating blows on that left shoulder, you'll "numb" their shoulder and blunt it's effectiveness, possibly even totally shutting out their jab and hook.

When you're working their shoulder, you aren't scoring, so these need to be power punches or they'se just a waste of your time/effort. Your goal here is DAMAGE, not points

- Use a consistent jab to occupy their right hand. They may not be as quick countering your jab with their left because it has to travel further than normal, so exploit that. Just watch out for the right hand parry/straight right hand counter. Mix in feints and hooks off of the jab to overload their right hand's workload and you'll land with some regularity

- Target the body often and with BAD INTENTIONS. Dig the straight right to the body lots! You'll either hit their body (awesome), or worst case scenario is that you'll whack their low left arm, which only helps build up the damage you're trying to do and slow them down even more

- counter their jab with your right hand. It's a bit toughter to roll their shoulder to absorb the right hand when they're retracting the jab with the same arm, not to mention the right hand parry/straight right hand is a great often unexpected parry in itself

All I can think of for now hope some of this is helpful and makes sense
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Thanks bro. Awesome post.
 
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