Economy 12 Years and $34 Billion Later, Canada's Trans Mountain Pipeline Expansion Is Set To Complete.

I really doubt it. Anything liberals have touched has always been a disaster for as long as I can remember. And then, no matter what they blame the Conservatives.
Chretien was in surplus 7 of 10 years. Martin was in surplus 2 of 2 years. Harper was in surplus 2 of 8 years. You are accusing others of doing what you do yourself, blaming others for your own fiscal incompetence.

There have been some fiscally conservative Conservative premiers (Lougheed and Klein in Alberta, Davis and Harris in Ontario) but I don't remember a fiscally conservative Conservative prime minister in my lifetime.
 
Chretien was in surplus 7 of 10 years. Martin was in surplus 2 of 2 years. Harper was in surplus 2 of 8 years. You are accusing others of doing what you do yourself, blaming others for your own fiscal incompetence.

There have been some fiscally conservative Conservative premiers (Lougheed and Klein in Alberta, Davis and Harris in Ontario) but I don't remember a fiscally conservative Conservative prime minister in my lifetime.

Those are usually surpluses to their budgets. They're also often spun politically. Like how Wynne's defecit is 75% larger than reported.

But anyway, one of Harper's efforts was to spend on the military.

Regardless, too, I trust what Harper was about 1000x more than what Trudeau is about that is for sure.
 
Those are usually surpluses to their budgets. They're also often spun politically. Like how Wynne's defecit is 75% larger than reported.

But anyway, one of Harper's efforts was to spend on the military.

Regardless, too, I trust what Harper was about 1000x more than what Trudeau is about that is for sure.
Harper gets no points from me for being a neocon who wanted Canada in the Iraq war when he was in opposition; war mongering is fiscally irresponsible.

I'm thinking the closest that there was to a federal fiscal conservative Conservative in my lifetime was Joe Clark, and his own party stabbed him in the back.
 
Harper gets no points from me for being a neocon who wanted Canada in the Iraq war when he was in opposition; war mongering is fiscally irresponsible.

I'm thinking the closest that there was to a federal fiscal conservative Conservative in my lifetime was Joe Clark, and his own party stabbed him in the back.

What is your opinion on Andrew Scheer?
 
Chretien was in surplus 7 of 10 years. Martin was in surplus 2 of 2 years. Harper was in surplus 2 of 8 years. You are accusing others of doing what you do yourself, blaming others for your own fiscal incompetence.

There have been some fiscally conservative Conservative premiers (Lougheed and Klein in Alberta, Davis and Harris in Ontario) but I don't remember a fiscally conservative Conservative prime minister in my lifetime.

Harper carried us through the 08 economic crisis and we came out better than any country in the world. The surplus he left Trudeau was lied about by the liberal party and CBC and then pissed away so Trudeau could buy his way in the UN and pay off terrorists
 
Harper carried us through the 08 economic crisis and we came out better than any country in the world. The surplus he left Trudeau was lied about by the liberal party and CBC and then pissed away so Trudeau could buy his way in the UN and pay off terrorists

I agree with this take.
 
What is your opinion on Andrew Scheer?
I can evaluate him only on his talk because he has not been in a position to take any action.

In terms of his talk, I disagree with his flip flop on the Paris Climate treaty. He should have followed Trump.

He agrees with Trudeau on having Canadian troops in Ukraine, and I want them out. Foreign adventures amount to pissing away money.

He talks like he wants to be a drug warrior, more money to be pissed away for no tangible benefit.

I'm still waiting for a fiscal conservative to emerge federally.
 
Harper carried us through the 08 economic crisis and we came out better than any country in the world. The surplus he left Trudeau was lied about by the liberal party and CBC and then pissed away so Trudeau could buy his way in the UN and pay off terrorists
What terrorist?
 
Gentlement, I believe you have gone wildly off-tangent here.

Not a bad premise for a separate "Who's the better Canadian PM" discussion thread though.
 
I can evaluate him only on his talk because he has not been in a position to take any action.

In terms of his talk, I disagree with his flip flop on the Paris Climate treaty. He should have followed Trump.

He agrees with Trudeau on having Canadian troops in Ukraine, and I want them out. Foreign adventures amount to pissing away money.

He talks like he wants to be a drug warrior, more money to be pissed away for no tangible benefit.

I'm still waiting for a fiscal conservative to emerge federally.

I agree his change of stance on Paris Climate Change was disappointing. Probably one of the most costly and inefficient programs I've ever seen.

I understand his stance regards to the troops in Ukraine. I think a unified coalition curtailing Putin's influence is a good idea. I don't know however if boots on the ground is the most effective way.

I haven't seen him talk much about drugs. I know he said he doesn't think legalizing marijuana is a good idea but his party has to be realistic about the issue (I'm for legalization). I wrestle myself with what to do in regards to hard drugs.

Out of all the options though Singh, Trudeau or Scheer I would vote Scheer in a heartbeat.
 
Gentlement, I believe you have gone wildly off-tangent here.

Not a bad premise for a separate "Who's the better Canadian PM" discussion thread though.

Nothing new on the pipeline front though. We can get back on topic when someone makes a move :)
 
The great pipeline debate: Why isn’t more oil refined in B.C.?
Jack Knox / Times Colonist | APRIL 29, 2018​

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Workers construct the Trans Mountain pipeline from Edmonton to Burnaby in 1952.

Here’s where the economic and environmental arguments clash.

Those who want to ship Alberta oil from B.C. say being shut out of Asian markets costs Canada billions of dollars.

That runs smack into the argument that shipping Alberta’s heavy oil from the West Coast is a disaster waiting to happen. Opponents say an ocean spill of diluted bitumen would be far more damaging than one of diesel, gasoline or other refined products.

The obvious question, then: Why not solve the conflict by refining oil here instead of shipping it abroad?

Because the business case can’t be made, say some. Because B.C. has enviro-protested itself out of the game, say others. Because Canada got left behind in the refinery race years ago and is too far back to catch up.

Pfft, says Victoria’s David Black, who continues to push a proposal for a north coast refinery that he argues would address both the economic and environmental concerns.

OK, first, let’s look at the status quo.

Canada has just 14 fuel refineries today (though a 15th, the Sturgeon facility near Edmonton, is gradually going into production). That compares with the 1970s, when the Great White North had 40 refineries before oil-price shocks prompted a switch to other sources of energy — electricity, natural gas — and forced automakers to produce cars with better fuel economy. As a result, demand fell and smaller refineries closed, says Natural Resources Canada.

Analyst Dan McTeague of Gasbuddy.com also cites moves — acquisitions and mergers leading to monopolies — by Big Oil, whom asleep-at-the-switch Ottawa allowed to concentrate refining in the U.S. at the expense of Canadian fuel security.

Still, Canada actually refines more petroleum products than it consumes. The Prairies and Eastern Canada are largely self-sufficient. The two refineries in Newfoundland and New Brunswick have far more capacity than is needed for domestic use.

The western refineries depend on the oilpatch, but the eastern ones rely largely on crude from Atlantic Canada and abroad. Even if they could get access to Alberta crude — in 2017 TransCanada Pipelines gave up on the proposed Energy East line linking Alberta to New Brunswick — the easternmost refineries aren’t set up to handle heavy oil from Wild Rose Country.

B.C. is the outlier among the provinces, consuming almost three times as much fuel — 200,000 barrels per day, according to the Canadian Fuels Association — as it has the capacity to refine.

The province used to have seven refineries but now has just two, a 55,000-barrels-per-day facility in Burnaby and a 15,000 BPD one operated by Husky in Prince George. Chevron sold its Burnaby operation, which produces gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, to Alberta-based Parkland in 2017.

About half of the refined products B.C. uses travel from Alberta: 50,000 BPD via the existing Trans Mountain line and a similar amount by rail and truck, the fuels association says.

The rest, 30,000 barrels a day, including biofuels, comes from beyond Canada’s borders, mostly from Washington state’s five refineries. There are four within 60 kilometres of Victoria — the Phillips 66 refinery at Ferndale, near Bellingham, the nearby BP refinery at Cherry Point, and the Shell and Tesoro refineries at Anacortes — with a combined capacity of 590,000 BPD.

Note that none of the product from Washington’s refineries is shipped overseas; almost 90 per cent is sold in the U.S., the rest in Canada. Also note that just over half the product travelling through the existing 300,000 BPD Trans Mountain pipe is crude that gets diverted to the Washington refineries via the Puget Sound spur line from Sumas. Effectively, they’re buying our oil and selling it back, refined, at a premium.

So why not build a refinery to service B.C.? Because the North American market as a whole is already over capacity. “We have too many refineries,” says Brian Ahearn, vice-president of the fuels association. Demand for gasoline and diesel is flatlining or declining. Vehicles are more fuel-efficient. Bio-fuels, all of which are imported (most renewable diesel comes from Singapore) have made inroads.

The association’s website puts it this way: “Proposals exist to build modern, high-efficiency refinery operations on the West Coast. The price tag: upward of $15 billion each. The payback period: 25 to 30 years. Although petroleum is expected to remain a key transportation fuel for at least four more decades, an investment of $15 billion comes with significant risks. Which is why there is no rush of investors, private or public.”

Gasbuddy’s McTeague, a former member of Parliament, mentions other factors, including the political climate: The “shenanigans” of pipeline opponents have made Vancouver Island, Vancouver and the coast a “no-go zone” for petro-investment. “Unfortunately, we now have a tattoo branded on our communities.”


Also, when Canada goes out of sync with the U.S. in penalizing refineries for missing hard-to-reach emissions targets, the economics chase business south of the border, he says. McTeague wouldn’t be surprised to see more Canadian refineries close.

Even without the political/environmental hurdles, the business case isn’t great, he says. “The economics of building refineries are not the best.” There’s not enough of an internal market, or enough of a distribution network in place, to warrant the investment. (Note that Alberta’s new refinery went ahead only with provincial government guarantees.)

OK, the domestic market isn’t great, but what about the foreign market? The whole point of the Trans Mountain expansion, adding 590,000 BPD capacity to the existing 300,000, is to allow greater access to the Pacific Rim.

Trans Mountain itself says market conditions will determine where — B.C., Washington, California, Asia — the heavy oil from the new pipeline ends up, but most is expected to go “for export off the dock.” The industry has its eyes across the Pacific.

“The opportunity is Asia and India,” Ahearn says.

If that opportunity exists (pipeline opponents doubt it does) is it to sell those countries refined product, or just unrefined diluted bitumen? If it’s the former, there would be competition from the big refineries on the Gulf Coast and elsewhere in the U.S. that are already rigged with the expensive cokers and other gizmos that are needed to handle heavy oil (heavy oil might be expensive to process, but it’s more versatile than light, tight shale oil).

That’s not to mention competition from the refineries in Asia itself. India, which plans to increase its refining capacity by 77 per cent over 12 years, has one complex whose capacity is 60 per cent that of all of Canada.

“The question is: Can a Canadian refinery make refined product, ship it over there and land it at a competitive price?” Ahearn asks.

David Black believes the answer is “yes.” Since 2012, the Victoria businessman has been pushing a proposal for a refinery in northern B.C., one that he believes would allay many of the fears surrounding the shipment of diluted bitumen from the coast.

Sited 13 kilometres north of Kitimat, the Kitimat Clean refinery, when fully built out, would be one of the largest refineries in the world. When announced, the goal was to process 400,000 barrels of pure bitumen from Alberta’s oilsands into 460,000 barrels of gasoline, jet fuel and diesel fuel, plus byproducts such as butane, propane and sulfur pellets. The price tag has ranged from $22 billion down to, more recently, $18 billion.

Actually, it’s lower than that, since these days the focus is on building the first phase of the project: an $8.5-billion facility with a capacity of 125,000 BPD.

It’s being championed as the world’s cleanest refinery for three reasons.

First, shipping refined fuels instead of dilbit means there would be no fear of tar-like goop sinking and paving the ocean floor after a tanker spill (though pipeline proponents scoff at that spectre).

Second, plans include processing technology that would cut greenhouse gases by two-thirds when compared with other heavy oil refineries.

Finally, proponents say Kitimat Clean wouldn’t require a pipeline (it better not, because Justin Trudeau has already killed the controversial proposal to build the Northern Gateway line from Alberta to Kitimat). Instead, the idea is to pipe the dilbit from the oilpatch to another Alberta site, then turn it into dry pellets by sucking the diluent from it. The pellets would be shipped to the refinery in hoppers by train. Any spill could be cleaned up with a backhoe, just like coal.

The advantage of Kitimat’s location is its proximity to Asia. Proponents say it would take a tanker doing 12 knots three weeks to cross the ocean from Kitimat to Shanghai. The same slow boat to China would take nine weeks from Houston, Texas. That’s in addition to the month it would take for the oil to ooze through a pipeline from Alberta to the Gulf Coast. By comparison, a train could carry bitumen from Alberta to Kitimat in a day.

That’s a big deal, as shipping costs are one reason Alberta oil sells for less than similar oils go for elsewhere.

That leads to another obvious question: Why not built the refinery in Alberta instead of in B.C.? The answer: the cost.

To be affordable, a refinery would have to be built in a high-tech, low-wage country like China, Taiwan, Malaysia or South Korea, then shipped in gigantic modules for assembly on the West Coast. To illustrate that point, compare the estimated $8.5-billion cost of phase one of the 125,000 BPD Kitimat Clean refinery with the $9.7 billion spent on construction of the new 50,000 BPD bitumen-to-diesel Sturgeon facility in Alberta.

Where does all that leave us? Waiting. B.C. politicans have expressed enthusiasm for Kitimat Clean, but the federal Liberals — the ones with the power — haven’t. The project needs petroleum producers to sign off on it, too.

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/l...-why-isn-t-more-oil-refined-in-b-c-1.23284624
 
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Feds will intervene in B.C. reference question on Kinder Morgan
By Rachel Gilmore. Published on May 3, 2018

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Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould​

Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould said the federal government will wade into the B.C. government’s court reference on Kinder Morgan.

“We are confident in Parliament’s jurisdiction and will intervene on the question in order to defend our clear jurisdiction over interprovincial pipelines,” she said in a statement Thursday.

British Columbia submitted its reference question to the Court of Appeal on April 26 in the hopes of determining whether the provincial government has jurisdiction to control the flow of heavy oils through the province. The feds, however, dispute the province’s jurisdictional claim. The move allows the federal government to present its arguments and evidence in the case.

This is the latest development in the pipeline’s path to construction. The Trans Mountain project, which would twin an existing pipeline to the B.C. coast so Alberta oil can reach new markets, has been marred by provincial squabbling. Those disputes escalated after the the company’s April 8 announcement that it would suspend all non-essential spending on the project. Kinder Morgan made the call in response to the provincial government’s opposition to the project.

Alberta Premier Rachel Notley also introduced legislation on April 16 that would allow her government to restrict the flow of Alberta oil into British Columbia. Saskatchewan and Quebec have also weighed in to take sides in the escalating squabble.

Provincial resistance to the project — and the inter-provincial bickering that followed — has been identified as a key source of concern for the company.

The CEO of Kinder Morgan has even gone so far to suggest the project might be an “untenable” investment. In a phone call on April 19, he said the escalating tensions “have confirmed those views.”

The federal government has been firmly rooted in its support of the pipeline project.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said on April 15 that “construction will go ahead” and that the government is “going to get the pipeline built.”

The deadline for Trudeau to provide concrete certainty — and investor confidence — on the issue is fast approaching. Kinder Morgan has given the federal government until May 31 to solve the pipeline dispute.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/05/03/feds-will-intervene-in-b-c-reference-question-on-kinder-morgan/
 
Great job, tree-huggers. Preventing oil from being transported in safe medium and force it on a much more dangerous way instead.​

Alberta Turns To Trains To Move Its Crude

By Irina Slav - May 03, 2018

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Alberta will discuss shipping more crude oil by rail across province borders with railways companies, Energy Minister Margaret McCuaig-Boyd told media in Calgary. The talks will begin tomorrow, with executives from the biggest oil producers in Alberta and the two biggest railways—Canadian Pacific Railway and Canadian National Railway.

Alberta’s oil producers are struggling to transport their crude as production increases while pipeline capacity remains unchanged amid wide-scale opposition, notably in neighbor British Columbia. There is also a shortage of oil train capacity as railway operators curbed their exposure to the oil industry a few years back when there was ample pipeline capacity.

Now they are reluctant to dedicate more oil trains to Alberta’s oilsands producers, but the producers are equally reluctant to commit to long-term contracts, which the railway operators insist on: pipeline transport is much cheaper than railway, and producers already have to deal with a serious discount for the crude to WTI because of the transport bottlenecks.

These bottlenecks are the reason Alberta has been fighting to get the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion built despite the staunch opposition of B.C.’s government. The province is even ready to buy the project from Kinder Morgan to make sure its oil producers have a way of transporting their crude as production is set to grow further in the medium term.

British Columbia is equally determined in its fight against the pipeline, arguing it will put its environment at greater risk of spills. It has now approached the provincial Court of Appeals with a question about whether it can put the brakes on the federally approved project on the grounds that it has jurisdiction over the protection of its environment.

It is somewhat ironic that by opposing the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion, B.C. is inadvertently encouraging the transportation of oil by rail, which is a much riskier method. It was a rail train that caused the worst rail disaster in Canadian history.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Alberta-Turns-To-Trains-To-Move-Its-Crude.html
 
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They don't care. PIPELINE BAD!!! It doesn't matter what you say. And of course this is going to delay grain and other shipments because the majority of the rail capacity will be taken up by oil.

Here's a recent conversation I had with a pipeline opponent from Kelowna.

Him: There's going to be catastrophic spill
Me: Mostly likely not
Him: What about Exxon Valdez?
Me: That was 30 years ago and the tanker was single hulled. A much more stringent measures are in place today. Besides it didn't destroy BC:s economy
Him: Well I still remember the Exxon Valdez, I think everyone should just buy electric cars so we wouldn't need the oil.
Me: What about airlines and manufacturing? Besides have you seen a lithium mine? Do you know how much energy is used producing one electric car?
Him: Whatever

Conversation was steered on to other topics.
 
I'm sure there are more important things in the city that could use that $60,000 in tax dollars, rather than enabling these Professional Protesters.

 
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