Bruce Lee on the Heavy Bag

[CONT'D] ...but then I guess you never met anyone who changed majors in college, or went "undeclared" and expressing interest in various majors.


...there's no objective or definitive proof of his actual combat prowess.

...and yet you talk about the guy as if you know how good a fighter he was.

My perception of his fighting ability comes from anecdotal evidence and observations, many from notable contemporary martial artists.

I`m nt saying he was the baddest mo-fo who ever lived, or that he was invincible/unbeatable; William Cheung and Gene Lebelle were known to have bested him. But I think there's ample evidence he was a good fighter.

He's not terrible but he's not the martial demigod/saint that so many people make him out to be.

I said he was intelligent, educated, well-read, and a skilled martial artist. How do you go from there to "saint/demigod?"
 
Nice job completely blowing what I said out of proportion.



He completed his high school education in the US...kinda hard to get into college without a HS diploma. As for "lying about his major," there is some question about whether he majored in Drama/Performing Arts...
University of Washington academic records have him listed as a Performing Arts major at the point he dropped out as a junior while he insisted that he was a philosophy major. It's not an issue of being undeclared or changing majors, it's a degree of lying what major you were -- which is trivial but is nonetheless something Bruce insisted on doing. If he could lie about something so minor, who's to say what else he lied about (and there are many, MANY things that both he and his estate have claimed that others have debunked)?

I myself graduated with a BA in Political Science with a Certificate in Public Administration and a Minor in Japanese, but even though I was a Biology major for 1.5 years and fulfilled a good portion of the major coursework, I don't go around telling people I have a BS in Biology. To do so is an abject lie.

[CONT'D] ...but then I guess you never met anyone who changed majors in college, or went "undeclared" and expressing interest in various majors.




...and yet you talk about the guy as if you know how good a fighter he was.

My perception of his fighting ability comes from anecdotal evidence and observations, many from notable contemporary martial artists.

I`m nt saying he was the baddest mo-fo who ever lived, or that he was invincible/unbeatable; William Cheung and Gene Lebelle were known to have bested him. But I think there's ample evidence he was a good fighter.



I said he was intelligent, educated, well-read, and a skilled martial artist. How do you go from there to "saint/demigod?"
If you want a complete lowdown on the knowledge I have about Bruce Lee having personally grown up with many of his contemporaries and associates, as well as being a member of SF Chinatown's Chinese community and having spent a number of years living in Hong Kong, read my posts in this thread:
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f11/bruce-lee-rare-video-six-inch-punch-2698493/index2.html

Also, you said of him, "Bruce Lee was, by any fair estimation, a skilled and accomplished martial artist. He was also an educated, highly-intelligent man, a famously voracious reader who applied his intellectual prowess as much as his physical ability towards martial arts and physical fitness." While it may not be to the degree of some other of his fans, this nevertheless baseless and unabashed hyperbole. It's an objective but well-hidden fact that he lacked power in his left leg due to a self-admitted but nonetheless rarely-acknowledged fact that he had a leg length discrepancy. This also accounted for his wide-based southpaw stance. The most you could say about him is that he was very charismatic and devoted his life to the promotion and practice of martial arts and martial philosophy, but he was not particularly well-educated nor especially intelligent, nor was he a perfect physical specimen by his own admission and as proven by his cause of death.

Also, why on earth do you break your posts into multiple posts like that? It's not very conducive to easy reading.

I think part of the reason why people immortalize him is due to him having that image. He is the man who brought the precursor of the MMA ideology to a global scale.

We remember him for that, and his movies, not for his professional fights. I am a big fan of Bruce Lee. I don't think he was the best fighter ever, but I'd be lying if I said I don't pretend he is.

But I think his main goal is to have the world acknowledge kung fu, or martial arts in general. So to me, he will always be the best martial artist there is largely due to the fact that he broadened the horizon for martial arts.
Now this statement I find to be very fair in its assessment of Bruce Lee's achievement and influence, as well as in its acknowledgement that it is a personal opinion as opposed to objective fact (a line of argument that many fans take). Bravo!

As an ethnic Chinese person myself, I'm a fan of what his movies did for Chinese people, culture, and martial arts in the West, but the man himself was a VERY flawed figure that had in reality tried to screw over a lot of his own people but that has been canonized and even deified by many of his rabid fans in the West.
 
ugh, punching a canvas bag bare-fisted sounds horrible to me. It is almost as bad as hippies who skateboard barefoot.
 
All he did was influence the entire globe and multiple applications of athletics beyond a generation? Yeah, sounds so miniscule when you put it like that.

If you re-read what I wrote, I am talking about his martial contribution - his contribution to martial arts technique/philosophy.

I don't put him in the same category as men like Jigoro Kano or even Funakoshi or Nakayama Masatoshi - there martial contributions were much more profound than Lee's.

While I have acknowledged many a time, in that post & in many before - Bruce's greatest contribution was inspiring the next generation of martial artists as well as increasing the global awareness of martial arts - that's his legacy. It is a great legacy to have because no-one brought martial arts to the globe the way he did - in this regard he stands right at the top - over all the greats but in terms of martial contributions - let's be honest, it pales in significance to the contribution of others. That's not to say he might have contributed more - we'll never know because he died so young.

I think it says a lot more about people who add stuff & exaggerate what he actually did - such embellishment dishonours and belittles him I feel, as though what he really achieved wasn't good enough.
 
I think part of the reason why people immortalize him is due to him having that image. He is the man who brought the precursor of the MMA ideology to a global scale.

We remember him for that, and his movies, not for his professional fights. I am a big fan of Bruce Lee. I don't think he was the best fighter ever, but I'd be lying if I said I don't pretend he is.

But I think his main goal is to have the world acknowledge kung fu, or martial arts in general. So to me, he will always be the best martial artist there is largely due to the fact that he broadened the horizon for martial arts.

There were men already mixing martial arts before him....in fact one example; Jigoro Kano did it in the 19th century with different Koryus of traditional Jujitsu - by mixing them all & refining them into Judo --- where Maeda then learnt Judo & where he went on to teach Carlos Gracie...

I feel people should be happy with what his legacy really should be - influencing the next generation of martial artists & opening up the world to what martial art's & influencing people's perceptions of what it is.

Did he bring anything new to martial arts - no. Did he revolutionize technique or application - no. Did he bring anything new to martial philosophy - no. Was he this amazingly undefeated streetfighter - no, etc etc etc.

In regards to inspiring others, no-one comes close, very few martial artists have the ability to inspire & no-one has in the way he did or to the scale he did. I'd argue in fact that in my eyes, it is far greater legacy to inspire others - it makes for a greater contribution - very few people can do it and in this case Lee stands at the top in the martial world for this contribution.
 
There were men already mixing martial arts before him....in fact one example; Jigoro Kano did it in the 19th century with different Koryus of traditional Jujitsu - by mixing them all & refining them into Judo --- where Maeda then learnt Judo & where he went on to teach Carlos Gracie...

I feel people should be happy with what his legacy really should be - influencing the next generation of martial artists & opening up the world to what martial art's & influencing people's perceptions of what it is.

Did he bring anything new to martial arts - no. Did he revolutionize technique or application - no. Did he bring anything new to martial philosophy - no. Was he this amazingly undefeated streetfighter - no, etc etc etc.

In regards to inspiring others, no-one comes close, very few martial artists have the ability to inspire & no-one has in the way he did or to the scale he did. I'd argue in fact that in my eyes, it is far greater legacy to inspire others - it makes for a greater contribution - very few people can do it and in this case Lee stands at the top in the martial world for this contribution.

Good points, I can't be too sure since I'm not an expert on the subject, however I can tell you that even if Bruce didn't come up with it, he did popularize it.

Even today he average American or average anyone would probably not know who Gravies are. But I am sure many of them would know who Bruce lee is.

You are probably right that he didn't bring anything new and wasn't undefeated either, but I'd say another one of his contributions is also having the unwavering determination to better his technique. I remember reading something about him and Dan first being exposed to Muay Thai. They couldn't stay for a while so he just watched them as much as he could and when he went back, he and Dan made their own pads and started kicking it.... Very incorrectly. He practices what he preaches and that is to seek out things that thinks may work and then test it out.
 
actually bruce lee wasnt a big fan of muay thai from what I've read.
 
actually bruce lee wasnt a big fan of muay thai from what I've read.

From what I've read, he was. Mostly I read interviews of Dan when they went to Thailand. They even took a picture of Bruce trying to kick pads while Dan? holds them. It looks like Dan because of his hairline but I don't know if that is really Bruce or not though. And quite literally, this is the only site I can find that image.

http://yorkmuaythai.blogspot.com/2009/03/as-close-as-well-get-to-bruce-lee-and.html

Curiously, where did you read that he wasn't into Muay Thai?
 
From what I've read, he was. Mostly I read interviews of Dan when they went to Thailand. They even took a picture of Bruce trying to kick pads while Dan? holds them. It looks like Dan because of his hairline but I don't know if that is really Bruce or not though. And quite literally, this is the only site I can find that image.

http://yorkmuaythai.blogspot.com/2009/03/as-close-as-well-get-to-bruce-lee-and.html

Curiously, where did you read that he wasn't into Muay Thai?

"Sifu Bruce told me once, and I don't agree with him now, "They're like the John L. Sullivans with the feet." [i.e., lacking mobility] and that's not really true in my opinion. Because I see that the Thais have footwork and they are really mobile when they kick, depending on what camp they are from. So right now here in 1995 I think that had he studied longer he would have been able to take more from Muay Thai." this bit. i hadnt heard the other bit. i guess i just never saw much muay thai in him.
 
"Sifu Bruce told me once, and I don't agree with him now, "They're like the John L. Sullivans with the feet." [i.e., lacking mobility] and that's not really true in my opinion. Because I see that the Thais have footwork and they are really mobile when they kick, depending on what camp they are from. So right now here in 1995 I think that had he studied longer he would have been able to take more from Muay Thai." this bit. i hadnt heard the other bit. i guess i just never saw much muay thai in him.

I read that too I think it means that he didn't think one aspect of Muay Thai was good but still liked it overall.

And his last remark could be interpreted also as "I don't see much Muay Thai training in him" cuz he didn't go sort of.

But it does also have an unambiguous statement and that was he liked Muay Thai.
 
From what I've read, he was. Mostly I read interviews of Dan when they went to Thailand. They even took a picture of Bruce trying to kick pads while Dan? holds them. It looks like Dan because of his hairline but I don't know if that is really Bruce or not though. And quite literally, this is the only site I can find that image.

http://yorkmuaythai.blogspot.com/2009/03/as-close-as-well-get-to-bruce-lee-and.html

Curiously, where did you read that he wasn't into Muay Thai?

If anybody has Bruce Lee's books, there is a part where he talks about the MT kick and why he does not like it. I will try to see if I can find it on google books tonight.

I know a lot of Bruce Lee fanboys who believe he got into fights with Muay Thai-champions while filming "the big boss". However, like most Bruce Lee accounts, there is no evidence.
 
If anybody has Bruce Lee's books, there is a part where he talks about the MT kick and why he does not like it. I will try to see if I can find it on google books tonight.

I know a lot of Bruce Lee fanboys who believe he got into fights with Muay Thai-champions while filming "the big boss". However, like most Bruce Lee accounts, there is no evidence.

that would be great! i wanna find out why he doesnt like my favorite kick.
 
that would be great! i wanna find out why he doesnt like my favorite kick.

I could not find the section I was thinking of, however, I found these for you. I will keep looking Monday.

Tao of Jeet Kune Do from my school's library (yes i went to the library on a friday night) :(
mM0l0os.png


JeetKuneDo from Google Books.
p7UqP3v.png

KhYg2nr.png



In the first link it shows how Bruce Lee viewed the thai kick. Chambered, and not coming at a 45 degree trajectory. In the book I am thinking, he speaks about his "hook kick" is more effective than the thai kick because of the 45 degree trajectory...which is how thai round kicks are thrown.
 
I could not find the section I was thinking of, however, I found these for you. I will keep looking Monday.

Tao of Jeet Kune Do from my school's library (yes i went to the library on a friday night) :(
mM0l0os.png


JeetKuneDo from Google Books.
p7UqP3v.png

KhYg2nr.png



In the first link it shows how Bruce Lee viewed the thai kick. Chambered, and not coming at a 45 degree trajectory. In the book I am thinking, he speaks about his "hook kick" is more effective than the thai kick because of the 45 degree trajectory...which is how thai round kicks are thrown.

Interesting. It seems like he gives it props got being "actual combat" and then immediately contradicts himself by insinuating it's not.

Con 1 may have been true back then but maybe he would change his mind now?
3 4 and 6 sounds unwarranted. Since he didnt display any JK do groundwork I assumed his grappling was something close to the clinch. And saying the lack of rhythm may be due to the fact that he never learned it. It's rhythmic as F*ck.
 
Pretty apparent that Bruce didn't watch enough Muay Thai before he wrote his thoughts down. If he wrote his treatise in 1970, that was the era of Apidet Sit Hirun and Poot Lor Lek, two of the greatest nak muay who ever fought.
 
Its tough to judge the guy on knowledge 50 years ago, before the advent of the internet and the MMA phenomena.

I think Bruce's methods were very advanced for his time, but they were never meant to be stagnant. I think If he was alive today his training would incorporate a lot more styles, including BJJ. For proof of that, look at videos of Dan Inosanto learning BJJ.

You can a learn a lot from JKD, but people who get dogmatic about it miss the most important concept of it.
 
Its tough to judge the guy on knowledge 50 years ago, before the advent of the internet and the MMA phenomena.

I think Bruce's methods were very advanced for his time, but they were never meant to be stagnant. I think If he was alive today his training would incorporate a lot more styles, including BJJ. For proof of that, look at videos of Dan Inosanto learning BJJ.

You can a learn a lot from JKD, but people who get dogmatic about it miss the most important concept of it.

Actually, that's a good point now that I reconsider it. Bruce went to Thailand in 1971 to film "The Big Boss", so it all comes down to when he wrote the section in his book about Muay Thai (that is, before or after going). If it was before, it's understandable; if it was after, the onus is on him for not going to Lumpinee, Rajadamnern, or one of the big camps to see/try it for himself (and if he came up with that analysis after seeing it personally, then one could definitely fault him IMHO).

I also wonder if he had been to Thailand prior to filming "The Big Boss" as Thailand has been a VERY popular vacation destination for Hong Kongers since the '60s.

And regarding media coverage of Muay Thai, the sport definitely already had a formidable reputation in Asia by the '60s -- otherwise why would Kyokushin and kung fu schools even bother to attempt their challenge matches against MT at the time?
 
Exactly - he was the face of the martial arts movement that really got popular right about that time. He may not have been the best fighter ever, but he got people into dojos, and we should be thankful for that.

I think his TEACHINGS about martial arts philosophy hold up a lot stronger than his TECHNIQUES.
 
I have all his JKD books, feel free to ask questions. I'll try dig some bits out too!
 
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