can someone explain submission-only grappling please

[Quebec Nick]

It's a successor to the older Combat Wrestling style that produced Rumina Sato, Masakazu Imanari, and others.


Rules for the new version:
http://combatwrestling.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FICW-International-Events-Rule-Set-2018.pdf

No-gi. Most submissions allowed (no heelhooks or neck cranks anymore, at least for now). Win by submission or by having 12 more points than your opponent.



If I wanted to train people to really fight with grappling, I'd use something like this ruleset.

12 more points is a bit much, but the idea is good. Needing a 5 or 6 points lead to have a win otherwise it's a draw or it goes to decision. So you need to at least sweep/takedown and pass the guard. If you sweep and then you stall for not getting swept you can get a decision against you. Fighters would take risks for sweeping and passing the guard, knowing that they won't lose if they mess up a bit

 

[catchwrestle]

I'm assuming you're referring to CJJ? If so I agree with you, adding strikes will be the differentiator between who can actually grapple and who's good at playing rules. When strikes get added you don't want to pull guard. This will force people to actually fight for top position and protect themselves. I want to see this grow to keep BJJ as a credible martial art

nope. Combat Wrestling is a rule set that ( In my opinion) has the most non biased point scoring system. It really allows grapplers from all backgrounds to compete on a pretty level field. It's a great idea and I hope it really takes off.

 

[Alech33]

nope. Combat Wrestling is a rule set that ( In my opinion) has the most non biased point scoring system. It really allows grapplers from all backgrounds to compete on a pretty level field. It's a great idea and I hope it really takes off.

What's the rules/what makes it different

 

[catchwrestle]

What's the rules/what makes it different

a guy posted them the last post on the first page of this tread.

 

[Alech33]

It's a successor to the older Combat Wrestling style that produced Rumina Sato, Masakazu Imanari, and others.


Rules for the new version:
http://combatwrestling.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FICW-International-Events-Rule-Set-2018.pdf

No-gi. Most submissions allowed (no heelhooks or neck cranks anymore, at least for now). Win by submission or by having 12 more points than your opponent.



If I wanted to train people to really fight with grappling, I'd use something like this ruleset.

I like the idea of pins. It'll take a while if ever for BJJ to accept that but I like the idea of pins eventually scoring a win. Ppl will open up more/have more urgency which will lead to more subs

 

[Alech33]

a guy posted them the last post on the first page of this tread.

I just saw. Seems like it's going in a better direction. It's all about how many promotion end up adopting it. I think the majority of the bjj community won't like this though

 

[beat...people...up?]

I like the idea of an automatic win upon reaching a certain number of points too, like a tech fall in regular wrestling. It encourages action. I'm really into these combat wrestling rules and I'm also glad orher people are nonplussed by the current submission-only rules.

 

[tekkenfan]

its hard to say what is stalling though some people say holding side control for 2 minutes is stalling some guys are amazing at escaping and you have to get them tired ect and making just 1 mistake cost you your position so in certain cases like that it is hard its like in mma refs standing fight sup when they dont see alot of action to them they dont realize today everyones damn good on the ground and when both guys are good u dont see as many positional changes

 

[yetanother]

If you are just holding someone waiting for them to get tired desperately trying to escape it's stalling.

 

[rmongler]

If you are just holding someone waiting for them to get tired desperately trying to escape it's stalling.

I wouldn't call that stalling as such.

Or rather, hesitance, skittishness, or lack of engagement altogether is a far more egregious expression of stalling.

If someone engages a guy, takes them down, puts them a bad situation, and decides to just ride it out, i'd take that over the former any day of the week.

 

[yetanother]

I wouldn't call that stalling as such.

Or rather, hesitance, skittishness, or lack of engagement altogether is a far more egregious expression of stalling.

If someone engages a guy, takes them down, puts them a bad situation, and decides to just ride it out, i'd take that over the former any day of the week.

It's just a different form of stalling. Holding a guy in side control or keeping your distance on the feet are just different forms of preventing anything from happening and riding out the clock when you have a point lead.

 

[rmongler]

It's just a different form of stalling. Holding a guy in side control or keeping your distance on the feet are just different forms of preventing anything from happening and riding out the clock when you have a point lead.

I would say one is nevertheless more preferable than the other however.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I also hear that submission only is largely about endurance/stamina. How true is that?

 

[Quebec Nick]

It's just a different form of stalling. Holding a guy in side control or keeping your distance on the feet are just different forms of preventing anything from happening and riding out the clock when you have a point lead.

Riding when you have top control or back control is one thing, it's disheartening for the guy under but it's fair. If the guy under really tries to escape or reverse, he'll leave himself open for subs. So it's as much the top and the bottom guy's fault if there's stalling.

What I hate the most is guys not engaging for a guard pass because they don't want to get swept and give the 2 points. That's real stalling for me, using grip and posture strategies, not to pass but just for avoiding the sweep. It's not that you can't defend the sweeps, but you need to put yourself in a position for at least trying to pass the guard.

The only solution is to give more power to the ref to call those stalling and to make them count more like by scratching points. But it's rarely a good thing to put that much power over the outcome of the match in the hands of referees.

 

[yetanother]

Riding when you have top control or back control is one thing, it's disheartening for the guy under but it's fair. If the guy under really tries to escape or reverse, he'll leave himself open for subs. So it's as much the top and the bottom guy's fault if there's stalling.

People sometimes tap to pins even in high level judo competitions once they realize there is now way they can escape.
Imagine how boring holding someone in a static position for 9 minutes would be.

 

[beat...people...up?]

I also hear that submission only is largely about endurance/stamina. How true is that?

presumably it depends on how long the match is.
I wonder what would happen if you had a very short submission-only match, like 3 minutes with some specific reset.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

presumably it depends on how long the match is.
I wonder what would happen if you had a very short submission-only match, like 3 minutes with some specific reset.

Not much, unless there’s a big skills gap...

 

[Quebec Nick]

People sometimes tap to pins even in high level judo competitions once they realize there is now way they can escape.
Imagine how boring holding someone in a static position for 9 minutes would be.

i know that, I have 2 training partners that just love to stay on top doing nothing, yet there's always a way to make them move if you're not afraid to take risks. Most of them involving trying to get belly down and risking to give your back before getting a good turtle position. Every escapes you try by puching leaves your arm open for being isolated and attacked.

If you just put an arm under the jaw and the other at the waist and you only try to shrimp from time to time, you're gonna get stalled on all the time.

 

[mataleaos]

One argument i've seen around points is that in some respects a point system can actually increase opportunities for submissions, in case the opponent(s) will be more focused on defending a scoring maneuver as well on top of just submission defense alone.

At the very least I believe it increases the opportunity for the types of submissions we see. Keenan Cornelius and Darragh O'Connail both have spoken heavily about this. And both used good examples.

Keenan mentioned that when you take the back in points they need to put energy towards defending a second hook which opens up the neck for back chokes. Darragh O'Connail was asked about his north south choke win over Boogey Martinez at an early EBI. He said he likes to attack with pressure passing and hit guillotines, brabos, and far side armbars, when the person turns in to defend the pass. In sub-only training and his TLI Kumite experience people weren't turning in to expose their back, neck, or their farm arm, and so he practiced the north south choke as a result.

The results show these guys are onto something. The amount of guillotines, brabos, and armbars you see at points events are higher than sub-only events. Hell even rear naked chokes at EBI aren't very common outside of overtime.

Sub-only has become a race to get to the cross ashi (saddle/honeyhole/411). The other subs we do see are often the aforementioned subs but from kimura grips, front headlock grips, or back control.

Gui Mendes was not a big no gi guy but his main thing was attacking lapel baseball/brabo chokes off the knee slide pass and giving people that 2 for 1 threat. In sub only I think he would've had far less subs because guys would have accepted the pass more to avoid those 2 chokes.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Yep... I agree m, it makes no sense to turn and expose your back in sub only...