can someone explain submission-only grappling please

[efficientjudo]

I just saw. Seems like it's going in a better direction. It's all about how many promotion end up adopting it. I think the majority of the bjj community won't like this though

I don't see any BJJ practitioners using these rules because of:
XIII. PROHIBITED ACTIONS (FOULS)
1) Use of full closed guard

 

[MadSquabbles500]

presumably it depends on how long the match is.
I wonder what would happen if you had a very short submission-only match, like 3 minutes with some specific reset.

If submission only, I think be very easy to avoid getting submitted for only 3 minutes, even from bad position, or at least stay out of extremely bad position for that short duration.

 

[ChainFlow]

I don't see any BJJ practitioners using these rules because of:
XIII. PROHIBITED ACTIONS (FOULS)
1) Use of full closed guard

There are plenty of BJJ people who don’t use closed guard much at all. I haven’t used it since blue belt (nearing black). It’s more the Gracie traditionalists who will decry it.

Mike Palladino is a BJJ guy (with sambo training too under Vlad Koulikov) and he won the 74kg last year.

 

[efficientjudo]

There are plenty of BJJ people who don’t use closed guard much at all. I haven’t used it since blue belt (nearing black). It’s more the Gracie traditionalists who will decry it.

Mike Palladino is a BJJ guy (with sambo training too under Vlad Koulikov) and he won the 74kg last year.

I'm not saying that you have to base your game around it - but it forms a major part of BJJ, perhaps less so in a no-gi setting. I think its an over-reaction to ban it outright, it has a place in grappling as a way to prevent someone pinning / controlling you.
Why not just penalise its use rather than prohibit it?

 

[dmwalking]

Here's a thought. Score points, but provide a submission bonus. That way the match doesn't end in a draw, and there's a benefit to going for the submission. Also, financial penalties for stalling or refusing to engage. Verbal warning first. Yellow card is the hard warning. Red card means you lose money. So now, you have an incentive to go for the sub, you have an incentive to engage, and if the match ends without a submission, at least there were points scored to determine the winner.

Money talks.

 

[mataleaos]

Here's a thought. Score points, but provide a submission bonus. That way the match doesn't end in a draw, and there's a benefit to going for the submission. Also, financial penalties for stalling or refusing to engage. Verbal warning first. Yellow card is the hard warning. Red card means you lose money. So now, you have an incentive to go for the sub, you have an incentive to engage, and if the match ends without a submission, at least there were points scored to determine the winner.

Money talks.

I like this.

I also like Jeff Glover's Sunday Rollout rules. First to submission or 12 points. Whichever comes first.

Also in terms of pushing the action I guess it could lead to potential worked matches but I've wondered about this. What if you gave bonus money to whoever gets a sub but also give a (smaller amount) of bonus money to the person that gets subbed. That way if someone is being dominated or in trouble they don't clam up and refuse to engage, because hell if they do end up getting subbed then they still get a smaller bonus. A draw would end in no bonus money for either athlete.

 

[woodguyatl]

Having just watched Kasai 3, I really want to hear why sub-only is a thing. What % of the time do sub-only grappling matches end in an actual submission?

Also, since there are no points, it seems to make the ultimate decision worryingly subjective. Why not keep track of points in the first place?

Sub only is boring to watch and fun to compete in. I love doing them. The last match I did (which I lost) went 27 minutes. It was a blast, but even I am not interested enough to watch the whole thing.

 

[yetanother]

Sub only is boring to watch and fun to compete in. I love doing them. .

IBJJF matches are some much less fun because of the stalling than they could be.
Sure some bitchasses will complaining how we can't have penalties because they have suck and have zero cardio and muscle endurance.

 

[DatCutman]

Here's a thought. Score points, but provide a submission bonus. That way the match doesn't end in a draw, and there's a benefit to going for the submission. Also, financial penalties for stalling or refusing to engage. Verbal warning first. Yellow card is the hard warning. Red card means you lose money. So now, you have an incentive to go for the sub, you have an incentive to engage, and if the match ends without a submission, at least there were points scored to determine the winner.

Money talks.

Vagner "The Wall of Stall" Rocha's performance in every EBI indicates he's fine walking away with 0$ as long as he gets his hand raised at the end of overtime. Money doesn't talk as loud as pride, for better or for worse.

What if you gave bonus money to whoever gets a sub but also give a (smaller amount) of bonus money to the person that gets subbed.

An interesting throught experiment, but I think people would still rather walk away with nothing than lose. I don't think there would've been an amount of money to make Palhares engage because pride is a helluva thing. If stalling can win (or end the match by making you not-lose), people are going to do it. That's why no time limit, first one to X points or a sub, has always made the most sense to me.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Here's a thought. Score points, but provide a submission bonus. That way the match doesn't end in a draw, and there's a benefit to going for the submission. Also, financial penalties for stalling or refusing to engage. Verbal warning first. Yellow card is the hard warning. Red card means you lose money. So now, you have an incentive to go for the sub, you have an incentive to engage, and if the match ends without a submission, at least there were points scored to determine the winner.

Money talks.

Sub bonus won’t make the difference... ebi has a lot of incentives, but you still see people stalling to go to OT

 

[mataleaos]

Vagner "The Wall of Stall" Rocha's performance in every EBI indicates he's fine walking away with 0$ as long as he gets his hand raised at the end of overtime. Money doesn't talk as loud as pride, for better or for worse.



An interesting throught experiment, but I think people would still rather walk away with nothing than lose. I don't think there would've been an amount of money to make Palhares engage because pride is a helluva thing. If stalling can win (or end the match by making you not-lose), people are going to do it. That's why no time limit, first one to X points or a sub, has always made the most sense to me.

Agreed on the last part.

Re: Vagner I agree overall but I also think he's gotten to be a more exciting grappler. At least sometimes. He can go long stretches of being boring but if he can get onto the back (at least in the past year) he shuts it down fast.

time coded for 19:40 and the sequence from start to finish is about 30 seconds

 

[yetanother]

I don't think there would've been an amount of money to make Palhares engage because pride is a helluva thing.

Palhares is not rational at all. I wouldn't be surprised if he went crazy offensive if someone offered him a hotdog as a bonus.

 

[mataleaos]

IBJJF matches are some much less fun because of the stalling than they could be.
Sure some bitchasses will complaining how we can't have penalties because they have suck and have zero cardio and muscle endurance.

I agree but I also think most of this is that grappling is just rarely entertaining except for a few names that can be banked on. I tend to think that matters more than rule sets. You can put Buchecha, Marcelo Garcia, Edwin Najmi, or Garry Tonon in the most boring rule set out there they will mostly be exciting to watch. If you put Orlando Sanchez, Pablo Popovitch, or Rustam Chsiev in the most exciting rule set they will mostly be boring to watch.

Those are extreme examples on both ends of the spectrum. If you're promoting an event with the goal of excitement I think the best you can do is try to invite guys and girls that you think will come for the kill. But even then most people didn't think Craig Jones vs Palhares was going to be boring. So sometimes that doesn't work out.

 

[yetanother]

I agree but I also think most of this is that grappling is just rarely entertaining except for a few names that can be banked on.

I mean from the perspective of a participant.

 

[yetanother]

The IBJJF is a super cruel rule set to participate. You can make a tiny mistake and the opponent might get an advantage and he will just try to hold you down and ride it out.
Loosing by an advantage point or a ref decision feels terrible.

 

[mattemate]

Either that, or go by Genki Sudo's rule set.

Haven't heard of that. Care to elaborate?

 

[TheGZA]

Haven't heard of that. Care to elaborate?

Replace points with a dance-off.

 

[yetanother]

I like this.
I also like Jeff Glover's Sunday Rollout rules. First to submission or 12 points. Whichever comes first.

If we don't care about spectators having a super long time limit (like 30 or maybe 20 minutes) and a point lead winning the match seems like a cool rulesets.
If you want to stall you will have to hold down every guy for 30 minutes.

 

[DatCutman]

Haven't heard of that. Care to elaborate?

Mostly a joke, as you could never do it in a widescale. But Genki Sudo created his own grappling event called Ikkiuchi (One against One, or as he said, I against I). Here are the rules as I remember them from the latest tournament (first one had BJJ point system, but I believe they changed it).

Has to be set at a japanese temple for maximum street fighter II stage effect
5 minute match, but if there's no submission in those five minutes, they restart and do three more minutes
Submission is an instant victory of course
Similar point system to BJJ, but there were bonus points for high amplitude / crowd pleasing throws or other acrobatic maneuvers.
allowed to wear a hakama if you wanted
Stalling strictly enforced, would be stood back up and/or penalized
In the event of a tie, Genki Sudo decided who won based on work ethic/crowd pleasing factor. I also think he could decide against points if the guy just stalled it out. Again, I'm basing this on something I read like two years ago on some clickbait site so I could be totally full of shit.

There was a huge amount of submission victories because of this, tons of throws, shit was cash. I think every competitor put on a great show, and it's one of the few times I've watched grappling matches for fun than to just study the tape.

I guess I'm saying I want every event to be judged by Genki Sudo, where he is the emperor in the colosseum deciding who did the cooler shit, and sentencing stallers to death by lions or something.

 

[mattemate]

Mostly a joke, as you could never do it in a widescale. But Genki Sudo created his own grappling event called Ikkiuchi (One against One, or as he said, I against I). Here are the rules as I remember them from the latest tournament (first one had BJJ point system, but I believe they changed it).

Has to be set at a japanese temple for maximum street fighter II stage effect
5 minute match, but if there's no submission in those five minutes, they restart and do three more minutes
Submission is an instant victory of course
Similar point system to BJJ, but there were bonus points for high amplitude / crowd pleasing throws or other acrobatic maneuvers.
allowed to wear a hakama if you wanted
Stalling strictly enforced, would be stood back up and/or penalized
In the event of a tie, Genki Sudo decided who won based on work ethic/crowd pleasing factor. I also think he could decide against points if the guy just stalled it out. Again, I'm basing this on something I read like two years ago on some clickbait site so I could be totally full of shit.

There was a huge amount of submission victories because of this, tons of throws, shit was cash. I think every competitor put on a great show, and it's one of the few times I've watched grappling matches for fun than to just study the tape.

I guess I'm saying I want every event to be judged by Genki Sudo, where he is the emperor in the colosseum deciding who did the cooler shit, and sentencing stallers to death by lions or something.

This sounds amazing. And though I despise the idea of dictatorships, if there were gonna be one emporer of the world I'd choose genki