Can you shortcut years of training by rolling with the best?

[Forceof1]

See you are talking from a play where you THINK would happen.

I am speaking from experience.

I'd rather be in a room full of killers then a room full of scrubs.

Like Ive said before I've already provided quotes and examples of high level guys agreeing with me.

You ever heard the saying if you are the smartest guy in a room then it's time to change rooms? Consistently challenging yourself with guys better then yourself gives you skills in every sport and every other part of your life.

Anyone who says anything different I'd wager has never reached a high level at anything.

You quoted James Toney- thats it. And his quote was "I learned the shoulder roll by getting my ass whupped". If anything it makes the point that you can only improve your defense in that scenario.

https://www.grapplearts.com/mostly-sparring-improve-fastest/

https://graciebarra.com/gb-news/the-3-types-of-training-partners-we-need/

Again- the premise isn't - you won't learn anything rolling against only high level guys. Of course your defense will improve. But you ignore the point that your offense will never, ever improve in that scenario. You need to role with people the same or worse to improve your offense. If you can't even acknowledge that point- I'm done.

 

[mataleaos]

I don’t think anyone is saying you should be th best guy in the room and crush everyone to improve, that’s silly. The ideal is to be in a room with all levels of competition.

If you are. A brand new white belt, a room full of killers is not the place you need to be, or blue...

I'm with this.

Either way you're going to progress, but in terms of just rolling I think you can a lot more benefit from rolling with world class grapplers once you get to like purple belt (give or take a little).

I was lucky enough to get to roll with several big name world class guys fairly early on with frequency (not taking classes from them; just rolling) and honestly despite the benefit of feeling what world class grappling feels like I think it would have been more beneficial for me if I had been able to roll with them at purple or brown belt when I could have a better appreciation of what they were doing to me. They probably would've also preferred to roll with someone that knew the game better and could give them better looks as well.

 

[thugpoet]

You quoted James Toney- thats it. And his quote was "I learned the shoulder roll by getting my ass whupped". If anything it makes the point that you can only improve your defense in that scenario.

https://www.grapplearts.com/mostly-sparring-improve-fastest/

https://graciebarra.com/gb-news/the-3-types-of-training-partners-we-need/

Again- the premise isn't - you won't learn anything rolling against only high level guys. Of course your defense will improve. But you ignore the point that your offense will never, ever improve in that scenario. You need to role with people the same or worse to improve your offense. If you can't even acknowledge that point- I'm done.

Lol so we are going to nic pic the quote? Better yet why would gsp go train with Olympians instead of just hang with his crew?

Because he wants to get better and the best way to do that is to train with people who are better than you.

Again James Toney world champ hofer. Gsp world champ, Kobe Bryant world champ hofer,

All have been quoted or known to have gotten better by training with those currently better than they were.

Honestly though instead of trying to pick holes in my arguments how about you all present arguments of your own besides " herp derp I think this is how it should be"

Again I can only speak to my personal experiences andfrom my studies. I would be the boxer I am or the Basketball player I was if not for those one on one battles to 21 I had with my older brother and older cousin spotting me 19 and saying go get a bucket. I lost alot but kids my age couldn't hang.

I was varsity by 8th grade, all conference by 11th. Maybe that isn't good enough for you guys but it's my personal experience.

Boxing was the same thing ( not as harsh) get in there put your hands on some people. I took a few ass kickings but I am better for it.

I can't say much more.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Lol so we are going to nic pic the quote? Better yet why would gsp go train with Olympians instead of just hang with his crew?

Because he wants to get better and the best way to do that is to train with people who are better than you.

Again James Toney world champ hofer. Gsp world champ, Kobe Bryant world champ hofer,

All have been quoted or known to have gotten better by training with those currently better than they were.

Honestly though instead of trying to pick holes in my arguments how about you all present arguments of your own besides " herp derp I think this is how it should be"

Again I can only speak to my personal experiences andfrom my studies. I would be the boxer I am or the Basketball player I was if not for those one on one battles to 21 I had with my older brother and older cousin spotting me 19 and saying go get a bucket. I lost alot but kids my age couldn't hang.

I was varsity by 8th grade, all conference by 11th. Maybe that isn't good enough for you guys but it's my personal experience.

Boxing was the same thing ( not as harsh) get in there put your hands on some people. I took a few ass kickings but I am better for it.

I can't say much more.

jesus

GSP was already a world class athlete, and grappler by the time he started training with the olympic team, do you think GSP just walked out of the blue into the olympic center and startd to train fresh off wth those guys.

No one is saying you shouldnt train with the best to become the best, but you need to go on stages, and this is what most people here is saying, you wouldnt benift at all jumping being a white belt training with atos competition team, you would do much better staying with the atos competition whit belt team, they are doing stuff you should be learning at that stage, you should not be getting wrecked 5 days a week 2 hours per day. By the tme you are an advance player, yeah you should be rolling or trainng with high level atheltes, cause you are high level already.

this is grappling, not boxing (again your toney quote is just adding what people is sayng, defense) or basketball, roger gracie an many high level grapplers agree with this view.. You wanna talk about experience, well most of the guys no agreeing with you in ths thread have quite a bit of experience in GRAPPLING, not boxng not basketball, dont know what your grappling experience though. I my self have been grappling for 9 years, I can safely say IMHO, being crushed without knowing what was happening wasnt fun at all, and didnt get me good results either, it was untll I started trainng wth classmates of my own level and getting more people when I could really see results.

 

[THEfightsAREfixed]

there isn't a shortcut to get around mat time and hard work

But of course you are going to get better training with the best than you would otherwise, this is why competitors gravitate towards elite gyms and other highly motivated people, but it takes a certain almost insane person to thrive in a hyper competitive environment, only some people can get destroyed over and over and process it effectively

 

[Tirofijo2001]

I was part of a little private group at my gym that couldn't come to the regular classes. So we met right after work and rolled. No instruction. Maybe a 3 minute flow roll to warm up. It was a black belt, a brown, a couple of purples and me (a pretty experience white belt that was ready to be a blue)

It sucked. The brown was relentless and just subbed me over and over. To be honest, he was a dick and clearly saw it as a chance to see how quickly he could sub me. The black belt would occasionally let me work a little, but that's it. I could survive longer with the purples and could occasionally catch the newly promoted one (but they were all loathe to let the white belt sub them and suddenly rolled like it was Mundials if I ever got position on them.)

Yes, my defense got better but nothing else did. Obviously, these weren't good training partners and it was a bad situations. I had an injury (not related to BJJ) and never went back.

Trust me, you need a mix.

 

[Forceof1]

Lol so we are going to nic pic the quote? Better yet why would gsp go train with Olympians instead of just hang with his crew?

Because he wants to get better and the best way to do that is to train with people who are better than you.

Again James Toney world champ hofer. Gsp world champ, Kobe Bryant world champ hofer,

All have been quoted or known to have gotten better by training with those currently better than they were.

Honestly though instead of trying to pick holes in my arguments how about you all present arguments of your own besides " herp derp I think this is how it should be"

Again I can only speak to my personal experiences andfrom my studies. I would be the boxer I am or the Basketball player I was if not for those one on one battles to 21 I had with my older brother and older cousin spotting me 19 and saying go get a bucket. I lost alot but kids my age couldn't hang.

I was varsity by 8th grade, all conference by 11th. Maybe that isn't good enough for you guys but it's my personal experience.

Boxing was the same thing ( not as harsh) get in there put your hands on some people. I took a few ass kickings but I am better for it.

I can't say much more.

I'm starting to think you are being obtuse on purpose. You are the one who posted twice that you "provided quotes" - when in fact it was only one quote, and actually may have supported the alternative point better. But when I point that out- I'm nit picking?

I presented arguments- you keep avoiding them. The easiest one is- if you never in your life get to do an armbar or RNC on a fully resisting opponent- how are you going to improve at them? Some how this is herp derp stuff and not worth your recognition?

If I play steph curry 1:1- even now I would get a shot off. And if I played him day after day, I would probably get better at defense, and get a slightly better percentage shot off.

As a hobbyist brown belt- I am never seeing Rafa's back. NEVER. Not even close. Not one person on the ATOS comp team would I ever pass their guard if going hard. I won't even get to attempt a RNC, no matter how much I train with them. Now imagine I'm a day one white belt? Please. This isn't speculation- this is fact after rolling with high level guys. It's pointless.

Even with boxing- a day 1 person is going to get to throw punches at Floyd Mayweather. None will land... but at least he got a chance. It's different with grappling.

If you are a day 1 white belt in the ATOS gym- you will never even have a chance to do something offensive. Ever. Zero. And for the next 10 years of your life, you can train in that gym- and your percentage will go up to 0.0. The highlight of your roll will be showing some style while you fist bump.

No one is saying that there isn't benefit to training with high level people - though that seems to be your only remaining argument. What people are saying is that you also need to train with people at your level and worse to see the best improvements.

Again- while I wasn't a high level b-ball player- varsity and scout team at small college - basketball and grappling are very different things. Have you grappled at all? Have you ever rolled with a true high level guy?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'm starting to think you are being obtuse on purpose. You are the one who posted twice that you "provided quotes" - when in fact it was only one quote, and actually may have supported the alternative point better. But when I point that out- I'm nit picking?

I presented arguments- you keep avoiding them. The easiest one is- if you never in your life get to do an armbar or RNC on a fully resisting opponent- how are you going to improve at them? Some how this is herp derp stuff and not worth your recognition?

If I play steph curry 1:1- even now I would get a shot off. And if I played him day after day, I would probably get better at defense, and get a slightly better percentage shot off.

As a hobbyist brown belt- I am never seeing Rafa's back. NEVER. Not even close. Not one person on the ATOS comp team would I ever pass their guard if going hard. I won't even get to attempt a RNC, no matter how much I train with them. Now imagine I'm a day one white belt? Please. This isn't speculation- this is fact after rolling with high level guys. It's pointless.

Even with boxing- a day 1 person is going to get to throw punches at Floyd Mayweather. None will land... but at least he got a chance. It's different with grappling.

If you are a day 1 white belt in the ATOS gym- you will never even have a chance to do something offensive. Ever. Zero. And for the next 10 years of your life, you can train in that gym- and your percentage will go up to 0.0. The highlight of your roll will be showing some style while you fist bump.

No one is saying that there isn't benefit to training with high level people - though that seems to be your only remaining argument. What people are saying is that you also need to train with people at your level and worse to see the best improvements.

Again- while I wasn't a high level b-ball player- varsity and scout team at small college - basketball and grappling are very different things. Have you grappled at all? Have you ever rolled with a true high level guy?

I second this.

 

[mataleaos]

I'm starting to think you are being obtuse on purpose. You are the one who posted twice that you "provided quotes" - when in fact it was only one quote, and actually may have supported the alternative point better. But when I point that out- I'm nit picking?

I presented arguments- you keep avoiding them. The easiest one is- if you never in your life get to do an armbar or RNC on a fully resisting opponent- how are you going to improve at them? Some how this is herp derp stuff and not worth your recognition?

If I play steph curry 1:1- even now I would get a shot off. And if I played him day after day, I would probably get better at defense, and get a slightly better percentage shot off.

As a hobbyist brown belt- I am never seeing Rafa's back. NEVER. Not even close. Not one person on the ATOS comp team would I ever pass their guard if going hard. I won't even get to attempt a RNC, no matter how much I train with them. Now imagine I'm a day one white belt? Please. This isn't speculation- this is fact after rolling with high level guys. It's pointless.

Even with boxing- a day 1 person is going to get to throw punches at Floyd Mayweather. None will land... but at least he got a chance. It's different with grappling.

If you are a day 1 white belt in the ATOS gym- you will never even have a chance to do something offensive. Ever. Zero. And for the next 10 years of your life, you can train in that gym- and your percentage will go up to 0.0. The highlight of your roll will be showing some style while you fist bump.

No one is saying that there isn't benefit to training with high level people - though that seems to be your only remaining argument. What people are saying is that you also need to train with people at your level and worse to see the best improvements.

Again- while I wasn't a high level b-ball player- varsity and scout team at small college - basketball and grappling are very different things. Have you grappled at all? Have you ever rolled with a true high level guy?

Yep.

Another way to think of this experiment is to even flip it. I don't know the average rank of the this forum but I believe it's purple or brown. I would even wager that if a day 1 white belt could only roll with a room full of brown belts that it's conceivable they may not improve very much. I genuinely don't mean this as a humble brag because nobody cares. I'm just a long time hobbyist brown belt. But unless I concede some things on purpose or let someone work, I don't ever feel remotely threatened by white belts (or even 9 out of 10 blue belts). I would imagine most of the other brown belts here would say the same thing. Purple seems to be the first belt where people start being able to sometimes catch brown and black belts with their best stuff now and then without it being a big surprise. And I'd argue it got to be their best stuff because they had opportunities to work it on people their own level or lower. I would guess purple is the rank that most of us subbed our first black belt and we wouldn't have got there if we could only have rolled with those upper belts.

 

[mataleaos]

I my self have been grappling for 9 years, I can safely say IMHO, being crushed without knowing what was happening wasnt fun at all, and didnt get me good results either, it was untll I started trainng wth classmates of my own level and getting more people when I could really see results.

Exactly this. My first gym actually had a huge problem with this in the first year. We were very upper belt heavy to begin with but didn't have many new people coming through the door. So most classes were about a dozen brown and black belts. Many white belts didn't stick around because they got tired of getting their asses kicked for 6-12 months and they never experienced any 'wins' on the mat. Most of the time every roll was them getting the floor mopped with them. Most of them got frustrated and quit. Eventually once the gym did a better job marketed in their 2nd year and got a larger population of white belts...more white belts stuck around because they had more of each other to roll with.

 

[asian-glow]

jI my self have been grappling for 9 years, I can safely say IMHO, being crushed without knowing what was happening wasnt fun at all, and didnt get me good results either, it was untll I started trainng wth classmates of my own level and getting more people when I could really see results.

My first school was just a shark tank. That first year sucked so bad. While I think it made me mentally tougher I concede that my offense developed very little. I think even my defense may have suffered as I was just so afraid of being punished for doing anything. I thought about quitting so many times. I used to not understand the point of fundamentals/beginner classes but it's precisely to develop a foundation for people so that they don't become discouraged.

One that thing helped me a lot was there was a purple belt who took an interest in my development and I became a sort of apprentice to him. This was definitely the most important factor in my development before purple belt. I would hope bjj schools adopt this as part of a formal system, kind of like a Big Bro/Big Sis program, but I can't see this happening when upper belts would tend to look at it like a free private.

 

[mataleaos]

One that thing helped me a lot was there was a purple belt who took an interest in my development and I became a sort of apprentice to him. This was definitely the most important factor in my development before purple belt. I would hope bjj schools adopt this as part of a formal system, kind of like a Big Bro/Big Sis program, but I can't see this happening when upper belts would tend to look at it like a free private.

I would like to see this too.

 

[Alech33]

It's also woth mentioning that some ppl who go to a big name gym not only get discoraged by the next level but also get over looked by the bigger names. Many ppl have gone to Greg Jackson's and left saying that they didn't get the attention they had at their previous gyms

 

[migeru29]

It's hard to learn things if you are just getting destroyed.

Actually I believe is the opposite. We learn from experience that more you get destroyed the better, eventually you learn.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Actually I believe is the opposite. We learn from experience that more you get destroyed the better, eventually you learn.

How are you going to learn how to apply a choke or a pass if you don’t ever get the chance to do it? Do you think you’ll get good at rncs by not ever get to someone’s back and basically trexing for 2 years straight?

 

[migeru29]

How are you going to learn how to apply a choke or a pass if you don’t ever get the chance to do it? Do you think you’ll get good at rncs by not ever get to someone’s back and basically trexing for 2 years straight?

By just seeing? feeling? perceiving? , etc.. Human brain learn from experience, the more you experience the more you practice the better.

 

[migeru29]

How are you going to learn how to apply a choke or a pass if you don’t ever get the chance to do it? Do you think you’ll get good at rncs by not ever get to someone’s back and basically trexing for 2 years straight?

I went to Tsukuba University for 4 months and I got my ass beaten up badly daily for about 2 hours. Nobody tough me anything but I learned more than any other other 4 months of my almost 20 years of Judo practice.

 

[yetanother]

I went to Tsukuba University for 4 months and I got my ass beaten up badly daily for about 2 hours. Nobody tough me anything but I learned more than any other other 4 months of my almost 20 years of Judo practice.

How good at judo where you when you went there?

 

[mataleaos]

How good at judo where you when you went there?

I think that's what's missing in this thread. 2 groups of people are talking past each other. One group seems to think the other group is saying that training with better people won't make you better faster. But that's not the case from what I'm reading. The other group is mostly adding the premise that if you have zero experience that only being able to roll (not even take classes, just rolling) with people that are world class won't be a huge help.

 

[yetanother]

One group seems to think the other group is saying that training with better people won't make you better faster.

There is a fringe belief that you should spent the majority of your training time choking blue belts (Joe Rogan believes that). That is true only on flat earths.