Canadian Business Man Annihilates Republican Congressman Over Single Payer

[oldshadow]

And that’s why we have laws that make it illegal to drive without insurance... to create risk pools of adequate size.

But somehow no one screams “Obamacare oh mug gawd communism!!!” about having to have car insurance.

Funny.

What state requires collision or comprehensive insurance?

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Dude, i am not arguing that the US spends more of its GDP than Canada on health care -- but their gross revenue generation is competely different. Way more of your income tax goes to HC in Canada. Why do you think provincial taxes are so much higher compared to state taxes in the US?

At least Canadians get health care with their tax dollars.

What do Murkans get with their tax dollars? NO HEALTH CARE, money to the Pentagon which gets flushed down the toilet, and after Trumps tax bill, their taxes are going straight into the pockets of oligarchs who dont even need the money.

And they still pay arseloads more for private healthcare. But at least they dont have to wait as long for non-emergency zhit, if they can afford coverage , that is.

 

[irish_thug]

I don't believe a set portion of Canadians' income tax is specifically allotted for UHC, so how do you know that? It also goes to schooling, police, fire depts., infrastructure, national defense, etc. etc.

schooling, police, fire dept and a big chunk of infrastructure will be covered by property tax. Which has nothing to do with income, so not as easy to determine.

 

[therealdope]

Cant watch the video -- but in 2016 we saw a 40% increase of Canadians seeking health care in the US. 63'000 Canadians went the US for healthcare in 2016. Average numbers is around 45k a year. I would say that is a pretty significant. Which is odd because Canada has now seen a growth in private clinics and care.

Also, we rank below you guys in most to every quality of care outside of access and cost. Personally speaking, i would pay significantly lower for private insurance in the states for better ranked care than i do in Canada via taxes.

But i guess if you're a 34k a year'er -- having others cover your cost would be appealing.

Canada's healthcare system is great as long as you are healthy.

My mother has cancer and couldn't find a way to get staged with PET-CT. Ended up going to the US. Took her 7 months to find an oncologist to prescribe her an approved drug that she was willing to pay for out-of-pocket. The whole thing has been disturbing, especially for someone who works in health care/cancer technology in the US.

 

[therealdope]

I don't believe a set portion of Canadians' income tax is specifically allotted for UHC, so how do you know that? It also goes to schooling, police, fire depts., infrastructure, national defense, etc. etc.

Are you crazy? First of all, health care is provincially funded -- so it's not a portion of federal income tax. You can download Ontario's budget and see that ~54% of the provincial budget is spent on health care. 54 fucking percent!!

 

[therealdope]

At least Canadians get health care with their tax dollars.

What do Murkans get with their tax dollars? NO HEALTH CARE, money to the Pentagon which gets flushed down the toilet, and after Trumps tax bill, their taxes are going straight into the pockets of oligarchs who dont even need the money.

And they still pay arseloads more for private healthcare. But at least they dont have to wait as long for non-emergency zhit, if they can afford coverage , that is.

It's not anything like you describe. Tax payers get medicaide and medicare for their tax dollars. I managed our health plan for a few years and the economics are not unreasonable. A family of 4 with our HMO plan is $1100/month, the company covers the employee + 25% of the balance. So out of pocket insurance costs for an employee are $370/month with 3 dependents --- all of which is tax deductable up to 10% of your income. Compare that to 54% of ontario's budget.

Our employees have a $20 co-pay per visit. If they take a larger deductable and $35 co-pay their premium drops.

What the US system does is it motivates people to have a job. It also makes people think about the cost of procedures and nuisance visits. That's not a bad thing you know. You should talk to someone in primary care in Canada to understand the ills of "free" access health care.

OTOH the US system sucks for people out of work, disabled or working shitty jobs.

 

[Orgasmo]

In my experience, the wait times aren't too bad for diagnostic services in Canada. Blood and X-Ray exams are usually walk-in. Ultrasound takes about a month. MRI and CT wait times are about 2 months. Those are all assuming you don't have any immediate life threatening conditions. Of course, if you're used to instant service by paying out of pocket, then wait times in Canada would seem like eons.

The real problem that I see is the length of time it takes to get a specialist appointment. Some of the more specialized and sought after fields take anywhere from 3 to 6 months to see the specialist. That can suck royally if you're suffering from diseases.

 

[irish_thug]

It's not anything like you describe. Tax payers get medicaide and medicare for their tax dollars. I managed our health plan for a few years and the economics are not unreasonable. A family of 4 with our HMO plan is $1100/month, the company covers the employee + 25% of the balance. So out of pocket insurance costs for an employee are $370/month with 3 dependents --- all of which is tax deductable up to 10% of your income. Compare that to 54% of ontario's budget.

Our employees have a $20 co-pay per visit. If they take a larger deductable and $35 co-pay their premium drops.

What the US system does is it motivates people to have a job. It also makes people think about the cost of procedures and nuisance visits. That's not a bad thing you know. You should talk to someone in primary care in Canada to understand the ills of "free" access health care.

OTOH the US system sucks for people out of work, disabled or working shitty jobs.

One of the positives that recently happened in Ontario is the revisions to the labour standards act make it illegal for employers to ask for a Dr.s note for sick time. That should make the lobby of the Dr.s office a little less crowded this winter. Less nuisance visits should make for a more efficient system.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

It's not anything like you describe. Tax payers get medicaide and medicare for their tax dollars.

Does every person who pays taxes in the States into these programs qualify for them?

You have to be old and on your deathbed to get Medicare, and theres like 5 parts to it: Part A,B,C D etc. to where you would have to qualify for all 5 to actually have a healthcare plan(most people can get 1 or 2 but not all 5)

Medicaid pre-ACA you had to be aged/blind/disabled to get it. After the ACA it was expanded to low-income workers, however, the guidleines are so ridiculous(I think you have to mkae under 1400$ a month to qualify as a single person) that the only people who can get it are part-time adults working at Mcdonalds, or full-timers with like 5 kids.

So, no most Murkans dont have access to these plans despite paying taxes for them.

I managed our health plan for a few years and the economics are not unreasonable. A family of 4 with our HMO plan is $1100/month, the company covers the employee + 25% of the balance. So out of pocket insurance costs for an employee are $370/month with 3 dependents --- all of which is tax deductable up to 10% of your income. Compare that to 54% of ontario's budget.

Our employees have a $20 co-pay per visit. If they take a larger deductable and $35 co-pay their premium drops.

Of course people get better plans through their jobs, but not all jobs are required to offer health-care and many do not. Wal-mart and Mcdonalds are two of the biggest employers and they dont offer health-care plans.

What the US system does is it motivates people to have a job.

Uh no it doesnt. What the US system does it make people not buy insurance because its so expensive, then when they get sick,due to EMTALA, they go to the ER and the hospital has to eat the costs and write it off as charity for a tax credit because noone can fvking afford it and then they jack up their prices and pass them on to everyone else.

You should talk to someone in primary care in Canada to understand the ills of "free" access health care.

I have yet to see one Canadian advocate abolishing single-payer and going to the Murkan system.

the US system sucks for people out of work, disabled or working shitty jobs.

It sucks for everyone except for the very rich.

 

[therealdope]

One of the positives that recently happened in Ontario is the revisions to the labour standards act make it illegal for employers to ask for a Dr.s note for sick time. That should make the lobby of the Dr.s office a little less crowded this winter. Less nuisance visits should make for a more efficient system.

Based on what friends who went through medical school (keep in mind this was 15+yrs ago) say, that's not the biggest problem. The unemployed and elderly make up the vast number of unnecessary visits. They're either lonely or depressed -- in most cases -- and generally just looking to talk to someone. The city that I did grad school in had a serious shortage of family doctors where new people to the city could not get a family doctor for years. Not coincidentally, the city has a high population of elderly and high unemployment rate.

 

[Prokofievian]

There's a ''private'' system here in Holland. With my health insurance I'm only entitled to go to certain hospitals. In one of those ''wait time'' studies the Netherlands was listed as doing quite well. I think that's mostly because people avoid going to the doctor at all costs. There's an individual mandate: everyone must purchase health insurance. But despite the fact that everyone here pays for health insurance, everyone that I know who can go somewhere else for their healthcare does so. My girlfriend goes to the doctor in Finland, my boss jumps the border to Belgium, my colleagues jump the border to Germany.

But hey, wait times for some Dutch wank to give you paracetamol and give it 48 hours no matter what is wrong with you are really quite low.

I really don't get the deductible thing. Lemme get this straight, I pay a bunch of money every month just so that when I do go to the doctor I have to pay for it myself anyways? I need to get hit by a bus for them to cover anything and even then I get a 500 euro bill?

 

[GtehMVP]

My experiences in Canada have been terrible. If you are dying or have cancer you should get pretty decent care. Need an MRI or to see a specialist for virtually anything than prepare to wait atleast 3 months for anything to be done.

And yes i was willing to go to the US to get some imaging done.

I can give you yanks my recent example regarding the benefits and limitations of our Cnd healthcare.

i'm waiting on an MRI, wait was 13 weeks at the time of scheduling. I broke my leg last spring and re injured it in Dec. They were worried about infection, some new fracture and now a muscle tear. Getting bloodwork (antibiotics prescribed), an xray, happened within days of the injury. My follow up was scheduled two weeks after, which was when my MRI was scheduled. I'm not facing a life and death scenario, so I have to wait for that.

So basically, without having to worry about any paperwork (just need my health card), or fear of my medical insurance not covering things, any immediate threat was ruled out quickly.

I would rather have the MRI conducted as promptly as the others, or have the the option to pay for it personally in my city. I could go across the border and get an MRI done, but my situation doesn't warrant travel costs, I can still work.

MY dad recently passed away from Alzheimer's and during his later days as his health declined, he needed several trips to the hospital. His service and care was always quick and exemplary.

My ex lives in Boston (Where she was born as well) and we had several talks regarding health care differences, we still do. Her experiences have been superior, as she had a great plan. I recall one talk where she described how quickly she got C.A.T scan and MRI at different points, with practically no wait. During a work slump, where she couldn't afford it, she said dealing with hospitals was awful ad stressful. SHe is the only first hand example I have as reference, so I can't speak for your care really.

I do know that I love how I always feel taken care of here, regardless of my work state, but it's very costly to taxpayers and wait times for things can be lengthy. In order to adopt our system, you guys would need to cut your military budget in half, among countless restructuring elsewhere, we're talking over a third of your GDP. I'm sure there's a happy middle ground somewhere.

Anyways, just ,my two cents.

p.s. I'm always grateful that Canadians don't have to worry about having a large military budget so we can focus on health care, thanks for protecting us US lol

 

[SammyPops]

There are rich Canadians who will go on vacation to New York City or Miami and will get stuff done in the US because they are there already and because they have money most people dont to pay the exorbitant costs and they dont want to wait in line for non-emergency stuff. But those are just a handful of rich people. Most Canadians cant afford to do this. Of course the Murkan oligarchs take these stories and blow them out of proportion.

But there are also much more poor Murkans who have for years been coming into Canada to buy affordable drugs because in the greatest country in the world they cant afford them. There have also been murkans in the border states for years using counterfeit and fake OHIP cards, and also using real cards if they have family or friends in Canada, getting free healthcare and costing Ontario up to 700$million a year. This has been going on since the 90s and recently they have been cracking down on it.

There are also tons of Murkans who buy contact lenses in Canada because of some loophole in US law that says they cant buy contacts from anyone other than whatever provider gave them an exam and they have to get the providers permission to buy elsewhere.

The US system is the best in the world if you can afford it.

 

[Damien Karras]

Cant watch the video -- but in 2016 we saw a 40% increase of Canadians seeking health care in the US. 63'000 Canadians went the US for healthcare in 2016. Average numbers is around 45k a year. I would say that is a pretty significant. Which is odd because Canada has now seen a growth in private clinics and care.

Also, we rank below you guys in most to every quality of care outside of access and cost. Personally speaking, i would pay significantly lower for private insurance in the states for better ranked care than i do in Canada via taxes.

But i guess if you're a 34k a year'er -- having others cover your cost would be appealing.

I seeiously question these numbers and wonder if the 63 000 figure included tourists who injured themselves or got sick on vacation, Canadians with a work visa and/or the occasional patient who goes there for some experimental procedure not yet recognized in the country.

The biggest headache I encounter in our health Care is the wait time at the ER. When I was diagnosed with cancer in November I was taken in right away by the system and have not paid a single dollar. I also didn't wait any longer for tests or treatment. The kicker is I didn't have to submit insurance papers other than for my salary insurance.

So, to my fellow American friends, imagine this: I am being treated for at least 6 months but can be up to a year, and I'm able to maintain a similar standard of living for me and my family while I'm being treated. There will be no co-pay and I will come out of this debt free and able to continue with my life. I have zero stress other than the one coming from my illness

 

[irish_thug]

Based on what friends who went through medical school (keep in mind this was 15+yrs ago) say, that's not the biggest problem. The unemployed and elderly make up the vast number of unnecessary visits. They're either lonely or depressed -- in most cases -- and generally just looking to talk to someone. The city that I did grad school in had a serious shortage of family doctors where new people to the city could not get a family doctor for years. Not coincidentally, the city has a high population of elderly and high unemployment rate.

The shortage of family doctors is still a very real thing. I'm in Muskoka and still have to drive down to Newmarket for Dr.s appointments. At least until we can find a family Dr. here.

 

[Drenalin]

There are Murkan plans where people pay 300$ per month and still have a 5k deductible they have to pay before the HMO will start to pay anything

I'm one of those Americans. Obamacare(the affordable healthcare act) quoted me at $330 a month when i was 28yr old & literally couldn't be any healthier. I didn't even stay on the line long enogh to ask what my deductible would be.

So I chose to go without insurance & get fined $650 per year. So finally in 2017 I got insurance through Cigna for $21 per month & a $5000 deductible. I only pay $21 per month after tax credits. Plus my plan is virtually useless. I'm just hoping it's good enough to avoid the $650 penalty this year.

I've used my Cigna insurance one time. I went to urgent care for a tdap vaccine. I could've paid $65 cash for the vaccine. Instead they billed my insurance (not my idea) & next thing you know I got a bill in the mail for $112 lol So with my insurance I'm basically paying double what I could've paid in cash.

 

[therealdope]

You've completely missed the point of my response. I did not advocate for Canada giving up UHC, I pointed out that there are ills to the system. If you don't see that, then we're done. I'm also trying to make the point that there are aspects of the US health care system that could be implemented in Canada to make Canada's healthcare system better.

If you don't understand that the US system could be studied and used to improve the Canadian healthcare system then there is no point in continuing here.

Does every person who pays taxes in the States into these programs qualify for them?

For medicare - yes. Medicaid is by need, as it should be.

You have to be old and on your deathbed to get Medicare, and theres like 5 parts to it: Part A,B,C D etc. to where you would have to qualify for all 5 to actually have a healthcare plan(most people can get 1 or 2 but not all 5)

you don't have good understanding of how it works and Part D provides drug coverage, you make sound like it's a bad thing. We have an older gentleman for who we cover his extended healthcare. It's less than $500/mo and his wife requires an incredible amount of care.

Medicaid pre-ACA you had to be aged/blind/disabled to get it. After the ACA it was expanded to low-income workers, however, the guidleines are so ridiculous(I think you have to mkae under 1400$ a month to qualify as a single person) that the only people who can get it are part-time adults working at Mcdonalds, or full-timers with like 5 kids.

AFAIK medicaid has covered low income, poor, disabled and pregnant women.

In all states, Medicaid provides health coverage for some low-income people, families and children, pregnant women, the elderly, and people with disabilities. In some states the program covers all low-income adults below a certain income level.

https://www.hhs.gov/answers/medicare-and-medicaid/who-is-eligible-for-medicaid/index.html

So, no most Murkans dont have access to these plans despite paying taxes for them.

All Americans have access to Medicare, and medicaid is for those who should be covered by a safety net.

Of course people get better plans through their jobs, but not all jobs are required to offer health-care and many do not. Wal-mart and Mcdonalds are two of the biggest employers and they dont offer health-care plans.

I pointed that out.

Uh no it doesnt. What the US system does it make people not buy insurance because its so expensive, then when they get sick,due to EMTALA, they go to the ER and the hospital has to eat the costs and write it off as charity for a tax credit because noone can fvking afford it and then they jack up their prices and pass them on to everyone else.

I think I pointed out that the US system does not work for everyone, unfortunately the Canadian system doesn't work for many that are sick and need healthcare. Two aspects of US healthcare that I did not appreciate until i worked in the US is the co-pay, and the fact that you get to see what procedure costs are.

Contrary to what many users of Canada's HC system believe, the Canadian healthcare system is NOT free. baby boomers may live to their 90s, unless you see a serious increase in productivity in Canada to infuse more money into HC or have some fairy pixie dust to reduce costs dramatically, the baby boomers will either grind the system to inadequacy or bankrupt it. That's an inconvenient truth that someone in Canada has to deal with now.

I have yet to see one Canadian advocate abolishing single-payer and going to the Murkan system.

Me included since I lived in Europe and saw how UHC can work more effectively. I'm suggesting that there are at least two aspects of US healthcare that would immediately improve Canadian HC.

1. a co-pay on visits to ER and GPs.
2. Send everyone the bill so they can see what their procedures and visits actually cost.

It sucks for everyone except for the very rich.

That's absolutely not true. Our company is not full of rich people, and our plan works for everyone. We discuss options to increase the plan every year and ask our employees how it is working for them. For those that want to go to any doctor for anything that pops into their head, there is a PPO available. Only one person uses it.

 

[therealdope]

There's a ''private'' system here in Holland. With my health insurance I'm only entitled to go to certain hospitals. In one of those ''wait time'' studies the Netherlands was listed as doing quite well. I think that's mostly because people avoid going to the doctor at all costs. There's an individual mandate: everyone must purchase health insurance. But despite the fact that everyone here pays for health insurance, everyone that I know who can go somewhere else for their healthcare does so. My girlfriend goes to the doctor in Finland, my boss jumps the border to Belgium, my colleagues jump the border to Germany.

But hey, wait times for some Dutch wank to give you paracetamol and give it 48 hours no matter what is wrong with you are really quite low.

I really don't get the deductible thing. Lemme get this straight, I pay a bunch of money every month just so that when I do go to the doctor I have to pay for it myself anyways? I need to get hit by a bus for them to cover anything and even then I get a 500 euro bill?

To be fair to the dutch, they think responsibly in a way we don't in the US or Canada.

Their approach to social security (as social responsibility) makes complete sense and I can guarantee you'll never see it in the US or Canada.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/business/no-smoke-no-mirrors-the-dutch-pension-plan.html

 

[phipps66]

I'm one of those Americans. Obamacare(the affordable healthcare act) quoted me at $330 a month when i was 28yr old & literally couldn't be any healthier. I didn't even stay on the line long enogh to ask what my deductible would be.

So I chose to go without insurance & get fined $650 per year. So finally in 2017 I got insurance through Cigna for $21 per month & a $5000 deductible. I only pay $21 per month after tax credits. Plus my plan is virtually useless. I'm just hoping it's good enough to avoid the $650 penalty this year.

I've used my Cigna insurance one time. I want to urgent care for a tdap vaccine. I could've paid $65 cash for the vaccine. Instead they billed my insurance (not my idea) & next thing you know I got a bill in the mail for $112 lol So with my insurance I'm basically paying double what I could've paid in cash.

That sounds strange. I would imagine all insurance plans would cover vaccines 100%. Definitely worth reexamining. I could go on forever about "billing mistakes" and "different co-pays" and other dirty tricks providers pull.

Either way good luck with your autism.

(joking)

 

[luckyshot]

OTOH the US system sucks for people out of work, disabled or working shitty jobs.

In other words, 44 million people or so. Many of whom really need healthcare. But hey, besides that, it's a great system!

Oh, and besides the fact that it is twice as costly on a per capita basis as the Canadian system.

And also, our system sucks for people who need prescriptions because we have no price caps or controls, so the same drug could cost 4x as much here as it does in Canada. But, besides those things, great system!

Seriously, I appreciate your perspective. There are flaws in the Canadian system, for sure. It could (and should) be made more efficient. People should be discouraged from nuisance visits, of course.

But in the US we have 44 million people without care. This alone should be an absolute non-starter as an option. It IS a non-starter everywhere else in the world. There is an ethical imperative here, and we are failing it miserably.

I mean, if Canada kicked about 15% of its population off insurance, doubled the per capita cost for the people left on, and as a result increased efficiency slightly, how many people would consider that a net gain to the country?