Canadian Business Man Annihilates Republican Congressman Over Single Payer

Because they factor in accessibility to the masses and out of pocket costs. If they included personal income tax as "out of pocket cost" which it is, you are paying for it -- the data would be skewed. Canada wins because if you're a jobless bum, you still get access. I guess you can consider that a win.

Nevertheless -- the actual treatment you get in the states is better. Rankings in the OP demonstrate this.

Show me the WHO ranking broken down by category
We pay income tax to cover people with no money, too (guess what, everyone in the civilized world subsidizes healthcare for the poor. And they always will, as they should.). Yet we still have people with no coverage who end up getting treatment anyway and driving up costs when they don't pay.

And that's on top of insurance, deductible, copay, and out of pocket max. And anything that requires a hospital stay is almost guaranteed to hit your max (mine is 7k for the family), because it is so fucking expensive. $1500 for an ambulance ride, $1000 or so a night for your stay. Then whatever procedure you had, medication, every specialist that drops by to check your temperature. You are still getting bills a year later for shit like a special anesthesiologist that spent 5 minutes in your room one day. So that's 6k in premiums, around 10k combined between me and my wife in taxes, then if we actually have to use any of it, as much as another 7k. That's assuming whatever you need done is covered, which is not always the case.

And every November we enjoy the fun experience of renewing our insurance plan. They change shit all the time so you have to sit down with 12 different plan outlines and figure out what's the best fit for you and your family. It's a PITA.

I'm not sold on any particular solution, personally. I kind of like the idea of DPC's and concierge doctors for routine care, and medicare catastrophic for all. But I would sure like someone to do the cost benefit analysis and lay it out for us as to what the taxes would be for single payer, so we can compare and make an informed decision. Unfortunately in America we can't do that because our government is a gaggle of useless twerps who are incapable of discussing anything like adults.
 
That sounds strange. I would imagine all insurance plans would cover vaccines 100%. Definitely worth reexamining. I could go on forever about "billing mistakes" and "different co-pays" and other dirty tricks providers pull.

Either way good luck with your autism.

(joking)
They billed my insurance like $180. My insurance covered $67 of it & left me to pay the rest. I just assumed they insisted on billing my insurance because they thought they would make more money that way. I offered to pay $65 cash but the clerk insisted on trying to bill my insurance first.

And the tdap vaccine was for whooping cough. It's recommended if you plan on being around a newborn
 
To be fair to the dutch, they think responsibly in a way we don't in the US or Canada.

Their approach to social security (as social responsibility) makes complete sense and I can guarantee you'll never see it in the US or Canada.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/business/no-smoke-no-mirrors-the-dutch-pension-plan.html

They do have a very ''you're on your own'' approach, which most of the time is infuriating, but I would be lying if there were no benefits. The dutchies are all butthurt about the 30% rule. I pay nothing for pensions because I'm not planning on setting down roots here. On the other hand I pay absolutely nothing in tax. A fact which most dutchies are really butt-hurt about.

Credit is straight up bizzare here. You almost cannot roll over payments. The money will be deducted from your account at the end of the month automatically. Credit is also barely accepted anywhere. This makes it practically impossible to get things like reward miles, even though the programs exist here. Also, merely having access to credit is counted as you having debt. If you have a credit card with a 5000 euro limit, that means that you have 5000 euros of debt: whether you used it or not. The idea of credit as a measure of profitability of an individual is non-existent. Oh, and if you owe someone money, there is no such thing as going to collections agencies, and reporting you to a credit bureau. No, they just come and take your stuff and sell it. Shit is gangster.
 
They do have a very ''you're on your own'' approach, which most of the time is infuriating, but I would be lying if there were no benefits. The dutchies are all butthurt about the 30% rule. I pay nothing for pensions because I'm not planning on setting down roots here. On the other hand I pay absolutely nothing in tax. A fact which most dutchies are really butt-hurt about.

Credit is straight up bizzare here. You almost cannot roll over payments. The money will be deducted from your account at the end of the month automatically. Credit is also barely accepted anywhere. This makes it practically impossible to get things like reward miles, even though the programs exist here. Also, merely having access to credit is counted as you having debt. If you have a credit card with a 5000 euro limit, that means that you have 5000 euros of debt: whether you used it or not. The idea of credit as a measure of profitability of an individual is non-existent. Oh, and if you owe someone money, there is no such thing as going to collections agencies, and reporting you to a credit bureau. No, they just come and take your stuff and sell it. Shit is gangster.

I would expect nothing less from the folks who made their original wealth insuring sea vessels for trade.

Dutch==Scottish. Once you realize that all of Canadian fund managers are one degree of separation from an industry run by Scottish insurance companies you start to understand why there is no VC industry and funding of innovation trough commericalization in Canada.

@JudoThrowFiasco
 
I can give you yanks my recent example regarding the benefits and limitations of our Cnd healthcare.

i'm waiting on an MRI, wait was 13 weeks at the time of scheduling. I broke my leg last spring and re injured it in Dec. They were worried about infection, some new fracture and now a muscle tear. Getting bloodwork (antibiotics prescribed), an xray, happened within days of the injury. My follow up was scheduled two weeks after, which was when my MRI was scheduled. I'm not facing a life and death scenario, so I have to wait for that.

So basically, without having to worry about any paperwork (just need my health card), or fear of my medical insurance not covering things, any immediate threat was ruled out quickly.

I would rather have the MRI conducted as promptly as the others, or have the the option to pay for it personally in my city. I could go across the border and get an MRI done, but my situation doesn't warrant travel costs, I can still work.

MY dad recently passed away from Alzheimer's and during his later days as his health declined, he needed several trips to the hospital. His service and care was always quick and exemplary.

My ex lives in Boston (Where she was born as well) and we had several talks regarding health care differences, we still do. Her experiences have been superior, as she had a great plan. I recall one talk where she described how quickly she got C.A.T scan and MRI at different points, with practically no wait. During a work slump, where she couldn't afford it, she said dealing with hospitals was awful ad stressful. SHe is the only first hand example I have as reference, so I can't speak for your care really.

I do know that I love how I always feel taken care of here, regardless of my work state, but it's very costly to taxpayers and wait times for things can be lengthy. In order to adopt our system, you guys would need to cut your military budget in half, among countless restructuring elsewhere, we're talking over a third of your GDP. I'm sure there's a happy middle ground somewhere.

Anyways, just ,my two cents.

p.s. I'm always grateful that Canadians don't have to worry about having a large military budget so we can focus on health care, thanks for protecting us US lol

Yep, when I herniated a disc in my lower lumbar and could barely walk I had get an MRI done. 6 month wait for the scan and 6 months after that for the results. I also paid for my physiotherapy as it wasn't covered.
 
Yep, when I herniated a disc in my lower lumbar and could barely walk I had get an MRI done. 6 month wait for the scan and 6 months after that for the results. I also paid for my physiotherapy as it wasn't covered.

And here is the problem, depending on the nature of the herniation physio could be the worst thing imaginable for your problem. A neurosurgeon buddy told be that it's not uncommon for hernia patients to be sent to physio and turned into quadriplegics without an MR or CT.

As for 6 months, my mother could not find a signle Oncologist to prescribe Nivolumab in the GTA because health Canada had not approved it's use for her cancer (though other countries have). She had to go to Hamilton to find the one person that would do it. SHe pays out of pocket, it's not like she was about to drain the system of money. The point is that 6 months past and the cancer spread. The Nivolumab is working but it would have worked a hell of a lot more effectively had she started it 6 months earlier.

And she had to find on her own that it was a course of treatment. Not one of her physicians mentioned it.
 
t
I seeiously question these numbers and wonder if the 63 000 figure included tourists who injured themselves or got sick on vacation, Canadians with a work visa and/or the occasional patient who goes there for some experimental procedure not yet recognized in the country.

The biggest headache I encounter in our health Care is the wait time at the ER. When I was diagnosed with cancer in November I was taken in right away by the system and have not paid a single dollar. I also didn't wait any longer for tests or treatment. The kicker is I didn't have to submit insurance papers other than for my salary insurance.

So, to my fellow American friends, imagine this: I am being treated for at least 6 months but can be up to a year, and I'm able to maintain a similar standard of living for me and my family while I'm being treated. There will be no co-pay and I will come out of this debt free and able to continue with my life. I have zero stress other than the one coming from my illness

The 63'000 specifically addressed canadians who sought out specialist in the states -- didnt include injured tourists or canadians living in the states seeking out GP's. The number comes from polled physicians in Canada on how many of their patients sought treatment abroad after getting consulted in Canada.
 
Last edited:
At least Canadians get health care with their tax dollars.

What do Murkans get with their tax dollars? NO HEALTH CARE, money to the Pentagon which gets flushed down the toilet, and after Trumps tax bill, their taxes are going straight into the pockets of oligarchs who dont even need the money.

And they still pay arseloads more for private healthcare. But at least they dont have to wait as long for non-emergency zhit, if they can afford coverage , that is.

Americans do get healthcare with tax dollars -- 100 million people get medicaid / care, all of which theoretically pay zero to near zero in income tax.

I fully support the US looking into UHC -- but if they are going the canadian route than its on individual state levels to increase state revenue and administer the program themselves.

In your opinion, why did SP fail in Vermont? Why isnt it being pushed through more aggressively in California?
 
I think anyone with a brain realizes that single payer is the way to go WITH an exception and that is if you can afford to have a more private type insurance that should be an option as well.

I will never understand how the richest nation in the history of the world refuses to afford it's citizens basic health care.
 
I'm Canadian but I've lived in the US , while we were in the US we had what I was told was excellent coverage from the state of Florida.


My Healthcare in Canada has been as good or better , in the past few years we've had deaths in the family births in the family, elderly with chronic illness, emergency room visits etc etc everything has been excellent

Republicans don't want to hear this... They don't want to hear the facts. They will keep regurgitating lies such as people dying because they have to wait, inadequate care and blah blah.
 
They billed my insurance like $180. My insurance covered $67 of it & left me to pay the rest. I just assumed they insisted on billing my insurance because they thought they would make more money that way. I offered to pay $65 cash but the clerk insisted on trying to bill my insurance first.

And the tdap vaccine was for whooping cough. It's recommended if you plan on being around a newborn
Yup. I live near Hartford, the insurance capital of the world. There's a reason why health insurers have the biggest buildings downtown!
 
Americans do get healthcare with tax dollars -- 100 million people get medicaid / care, all of which theoretically pay zero to near zero in income tax.

I fully support the US looking into UHC -- but if they are going the canadian route than its on individual state levels to increase state revenue and administer the program themselves.

In your opinion, why did SP fail in Vermont? Why isnt it being pushed through more aggressively in California?
I agree with you. It would be much better if it were federally controlled. Ditto a lot of other things. However, we're constitutionally tied to divisions of responsibility between the provinces and the federal government, IIRC.
It's not anything like you describe. Tax payers get medicaide and medicare for their tax dollars. I managed our health plan for a few years and the economics are not unreasonable. A family of 4 with our HMO plan is $1100/month, the company covers the employee + 25% of the balance. So out of pocket insurance costs for an employee are $370/month with 3 dependents --- all of which is tax deductable up to 10% of your income. Compare that to 54% of ontario's budget.

Our employees have a $20 co-pay per visit. If they take a larger deductable and $35 co-pay their premium drops.

What the US system does is it motivates people to have a job. It also makes people think about the cost of procedures and nuisance visits. That's not a bad thing you know. You should talk to someone in primary care in Canada to understand the ills of "free" access health care.

OTOH the US system sucks for people out of work, disabled or working shitty jobs.
So, not counting the taxes you also pay, you shell out $13,200 extra for healthcare, not counting deductible. Do you think the average Canadian (once you exclude people rich enough to comfortably travel for healthcare if they want to) pays more than that in taxes for their healthcare?
 
So, not counting the taxes you also pay, you shell out $13,200 extra for healthcare, not counting deductible. Do you think the average Canadian (once you exclude people rich enough to comfortably travel for healthcare if they want to) pays more than that in taxes for their healthcare?

THere is a payroll income in Canada as well, so I'm not sure how to do the math. And dental is not covered by UHC in Canada. Our HMO covers dental (but it's shitty), and prescriptions.

So the median HH income in Canada is $78k, which $5700 ontario tax and 54% of that is only $3000. then you add the 8% PST that is baked into HST which adds another $2500 (let's say). So it's $5500, no dental, no prescription.

So the answer to your question is no, but based on value delivered the ratio seems about right.

one thing for sure, for the average person, life is MUCH easier in Canada. Plain and simple. OTOH if you plan to produce anything or have the potential for $200k+ income then the US is better.
 
Does America have better quality of care than Canada? Possibly. Is it even remotely affordable? Not at all.

My brother got mugged during a visit to LA in 2009. A short visit to an ER for some stitches on the back of his head set him back $6000. If that happened at Home he wouldn’t have had to pay a dime.

It wasn’t just stitches if it was $6000. At that price he also had a CT scan done. If he is uninsured he gets on average an 88% discount so his bill would be $720. That really isn’t bad at all. Stop acting like it’s free in Canada. You and others are paying via taxes to cover these bills.

Universal Healrh Care might work in some small countries which populations that actually take care of themselves but America is different. Most people in America are fat sedentary smokers who seek out healthcare for things as minor as knee pain when they are 300lbs. People need to realize that healthcare is a privilege and not a human right.
 
My experiences in Canada have been terrible. If you are dying or have cancer you should get pretty decent care. Need an MRI or to see a specialist for virtually anything than prepare to wait atleast 3 months for anything to be done.

And yes i was willing to go to the US to get some imaging done.
This is the problem with uhc, the wait times.

In the USA my immediate and extended family have been in a ton of shit medically. Heart surgeries, multiple cancer diagnosis, busted up joints requiring surgeries, joint replacements and we have never waited more than a few days for any Ct scan, MRI, pet scan, surgery etc....... the doctors and hospitals have always been on top of it.

Getting in to see a specialist has never been a problem.

The quality and availability of healthcare has been outstanding.

I am not willing to lower quality and increase wait times just to have uhc.
 
In my experience, the wait times aren't too bad for diagnostic services in Canada. Blood and X-Ray exams are usually walk-in. Ultrasound takes about a month. MRI and CT wait times are about 2 months. Those are all assuming you don't have any immediate life threatening conditions. Of course, if you're used to instant service by paying out of pocket, then wait times in Canada would seem like eons.

The real problem that I see is the length of time it takes to get a specialist appointment. Some of the more specialized and sought after fields take anywhere from 3 to 6 months to see the specialist. That can suck royally if you're suffering from diseases.
No way I could deal with that.

My experience in the USA for imaging (Ct scans, MRI, pet scans) we get in within a few days, never more than a week. To see a specialist, 1-2 weeks.

I would rather put in the effort to have a good job and health insurance or start my own business to not have the wait times.
 
Last edited:
THere is a payroll income in Canada as well, so I'm not sure how to do the math. And dental is not covered by UHC in Canada. Our HMO covers dental (but it's shitty), and prescriptions.

So the median HH income in Canada is $78k, which $5700 ontario tax and 54% of that is only $3000. then you add the 8% PST that is baked into HST which adds another $2500 (let's say). So it's $5500, no dental, no prescription.

So the answer to your question is no, but based on value delivered the ratio seems about right.

one thing for sure, for the average person, life is MUCH easier in Canada. Plain and simple. OTOH if you plan to produce anything or have the potential for $200k+ income then the US is better.
No one is really questioning whether rich people can go to certain places in the US and get top notch healthcare. It's the people without these means that are the issue, aren't they?
 
No one is really questioning whether rich people can go to certain places in the US and get top notch healthcare. It's the people without these means that are the issue, aren't they?

My dad needed lithotripsy 20 yrs ago for kidney stones. THe wait in Ontario was a few months so he went that same week to Buffalo and had it done. I think OHIP covered most of it. It's not like the province didn't know about it's own wait times.

I guess it comes down to how badly you need the procedure. My mother was ready to go to the US for Nivolumab until she found the rad-onc in Hamilton that would prescribe it. To show you how easy the process would have been in the US, they just called up CVS compounding and it would have been a store for pick up in two days. They had to arrange for a physician to inject it and were getting quotes that were kind of hilarious for what they were charging.

The whole billing and fees thing is a complete shit show in the US, that's for sure.
 
And that's why it will never work in Canada.

Thats why it will never work anywhere in the world. There will always be someone who 'doesnt have a good enough job'. Which is why healthcare shouldnt be tied to that.

Look up Singapore. They tried the Murkan system back in the 80s and 90s. Costs started spiraling out of control and noone was getting treated because there really isnt any incentive for free-market health care to treat anyone except the very rich. So Singapore moved to a hybrid single-payer system.
 
Back
Top