International Catalonia's Rebellion: 170,000 Spaniards in Madrid March Against Amnesty Plan for Catalan Secessionists

That's actually pretty scary stuff, especially for a (formerly) first world country in 2017.

A temporarily first world country in certain regions. Looking at the history of Spain over the last 70 years or so, this is more like a return to normalcy.
 
EU looks away as Catalan crisis unfolds

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So where the cries of outrage? Where the statements of condemnation, the tweets of shock at the violence meted out on the voters of Catalonia at the hands of the Spanish police?

In the chancelleries of Europe, there has been an echoing silence. Most heads of government - who feel quite able to respond to the slightest turn of the Brexit saga - appear to have lost their tongues.

The Belgian prime minister, Charles Michel, said that "violence can never be the answer". The Slovenian prime minister, Miro Cerar, said he was "concerned". But these two seemed to be the exceptions that proved the rule.

One could explain this collective omertà on the usual diplomatic niceties about EU countries not intervening in each others' domestic politics.

But there is so much more to it than that.

First, many EU nations fear that if Catalonia won its independence, then that would encourage other separatist movements in their own countries. Many of Europe's nations are relatively young conglomerations of ethnicities and languages and territories.

The last thing they would want is the integrity of their own states being threatened. Think northern Italy, Corsica, Flanders and the south Tyrol.

Second, there is a question of consistency. How could an EU that opposed independence for, say, the Kurds or Crimea suddenly decide to welcome it for the Catalans? The EU would find it hard to back a vote for self-determination that had been so clearly ruled illegal by a country's constitutional court.

But third, and most importantly, the EU is fundamentally opposed to separatist movements in principle. They are seen as a threat to what is still a club of sovereign nations. Suddenly having one member divide in two would create huge problems for officials in Brussels.

Should an independent Catalonia join the EU? Should it join the euro? What would happen if Spain blocked Catalonia's membership? What would happen to Spain's economy shorn of the Catalonian powerhouse that produces 20% of the country's wealth. What would happen to Spain's sovereign debts?

And what of Britain? Opposition politicians called on the government to intervene and speak out. The Lib Dem leader Vince Cable called for the Spanish ambassador to be summoned. But the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, merely tweeted that the referendum was a matter for Spain, its constitution should be respected, and the country was a close ally and good friend. He did admit to Reuters that he was "worried" about the violence but there was no actual condemnation.

Now this is hardly surprising. The British government, of course, has had to deal with its own independence referendum in recent years and may be unwilling to do anything to encourage or provoke the Scottish National Party that has been on the back foot of late.

But also, as the Brexit negotiations progress, the UK has no desire to provoke a European ally unnecessarily. There is no national interest in upsetting Madrid whose support Theresa May will need in the months and years ahead.

And yet there is a paradox in all this. We are told constantly that the problems of today are global, that economic crisis, climate change, terrorism and migration can be tackled only by supranational action.

Yet here we have, once again, people and politicians turning instead to the nation state as the answer to their problems. The Catalonian separatists believe their interests will be best served by forming their own country independent of Spain.

The government in Madrid sees Catalan independence as a fundamental threat to the constitutional Spanish state that emerged from dictatorship in the 1970s. And a European Union that gives daily lip service to the idea of breaking down the boundaries between its members looks silently away as one of its number uses state violence to protect the integrity of its borders.

Four centuries ago, the Treaty of Westphalia established the principle that the sovereign state should be the building block of world affairs, the best way of promoting the interests of the peoples within their borders.

And four centuries on, this is the one principle on which the politicians in Catalonia and Madrid have common ground. Both sides are nationalist in their own way. Their disagreement is merely one of geography.

The crisis in Spain has shown that, like Mark Twain, reports about the death of the nation state have been much exaggerated.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41464712
 
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No Catalan culture is no more distinct than other regions of Spain are from each other. The whole separatist movement rests on the notion that they are so different than Spanish culture thus need to be recognized as their own people but as i noted theres a variety of different regions of Spain all with their distinct culture and dialects with about the same difference from one another as the Catalonians are with everyone else in the country. Therefore the whole thing is ridiculous and using this logic no one is really "Spanish" and every region should break up into its own autonomous nations

In reality this movement is more comparable to the notion of certain Californians wanting to separate from the states or the venetian succession movement than it is to some small ethnic group in a land wishing to be recognized as their own country

Quite frankly the people being suckered into the separatist cause don't seem to grasp Spanish people's history or understand how giant of cocks they can be with the zealousness of their regional pride.

I understand your logic but where do you draw the line as to what is a distinct culture and what isn't ?

Most "nations inside states" nowadays have very similar culture to said state's culture. Most of these movements have young people not even speak the "national" language.

So what is legit and what isn't? Scotland ? Québec? Corsica?
 
A temporarily first world country in certain regions. Looking at the history of Spain over the last 70 years or so, this is more like a return to normalcy.

Yup.

Spain never succeeded in Democracy, IMO. It’s been a basket case for a long time. Modern Spain is a succession of coups, civil war, internecine conflict, and repression.
 
I don't think "independence" is ever truly going to be achieved through a purely democratic process. It is inevitable that there would be a struggle. Independence is not necessarily something that we should aspire to have at a whim, but only when there is a will to match the want.

If police batons will stop you from having independence, then perhaps you do not require it.

As I've said before though, it doesn't seem to me that the world is truly "integrating" into larger structures, as the globalist lobby would hope. Rather, it seems, that the nations are gradually disintegrating into smaller and smaller pieces. There are more nations around today, than there ever were. It appears that people prefer working for common goals with like-minded people, to awkward co-existence with those that do not share your objectives.
 
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It appears that people prefer working for common goals with like-minded people, to awkward co-existence with those that do not share your objectives.

This is at the heart of it all. And really, what's so wrong about this?

This is really well stated btw.
 
Pretty powerful scenes with the firefighters protecting the civilians from the police.

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That's actually pretty scary stuff, especially for a (formerly) first world country in 2017.
i saw a video of a cop just breaking a woman's fingers. like he put her on the ground and started snapping her fingers. makes you wonder about the psychopaths that are recruited in the Spanish police. never heard good things about them.
 
Just to underline that: the central government should have acted differently months and years ago already. Now with the referendum actually scheduled they hardly had another option. They succeeded in not allowing the vote - a declaration of independence based on this would be a farce. But obviously this will change the discourse.

Catalonia Leaders Seek to Make Independence Referendum Binding
By RAPHAEL MINDER | OCTOBER 2, 2017

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BARCELONA, Spain — A day after a referendum on independence for Catalonia that was marred by clashes between supporters and police officers, the Spanish region’s leaders were meeting on Monday to determine how to convert the vote into a state free from the rest of the country.

Carles Puigdemont, the Catalan leader, said late Sunday that Catalans had won the right to have their own state and that he would soon present the result of the referendum to the regional Parliament to make it binding.

The Catalan government announced that 90 percent of almost 2.3 million voters had voted in favor of independence. But several issues stood in the way of a consensus on the vote: The figures could not be independently verified, the voting registers were based on a census whose validity is contested and — most importantly — Spain’s constitutional court had ordered that the referendum be suspended.
Having defied Madrid over the referendum, Mr. Puigdemont’s government risks increasing tensions even further if he proceeds with a declaration of independence. The move could prompt his immediate suspension from office.

Rafael Catalá, Spain’s justice minister, warned Monday morning that the central government in Madrid was prepared to use its emergency powers to prevent a unilateral declaration of independence. Under Spanish law, the government can take full administrative control of Catalonia.

“If somebody tries to declare the independence of part of the territory — something that cannot be done — we will have to do everything possible to apply the law,” Mr. Catalá said on national television on Monday. Most polling stations stayed open on Sunday, he said, “because the security forces decided that it wasn’t worth using force because of the consequences that it could have.”
Catalan separatists face several major hurdles to having the vote recognized as legitimate, but simply holding the referendum amounted to a victory of sorts. It helped them shift the debate from the issue of independence — which has split Catalans, and for which there had not been majority backing — to the argument over whether voters had a right to decide on statehood.

In the short term, the police crackdown could help Catalan separatists, who are part of a fragile coalition in the regional government, broaden their support. On Sunday, Ada Colau, the influential leftist mayor of Barcelona who has been ambivalent about independence, called on Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to resign, describing his decision to bring in police officers from around the country as an act of cowardice.

“Today, Catalan society isn’t discussing whether the result is valid or not, but is in a state of shock about how the voting took place,” Ernest Urtasun, a leftist Catalan politician, said on Spanish television on Monday.
Mr. Puigdemont is committed to declaring independence, but he is also pressuring the international community to mediate in the conflict and to condemn the Madrid-ordered police clampdown.

“The European Union cannot now continue to look the other side,” Mr. Puigdemont said around midnight Sunday, although the European bloc has shown no sign so far that it was willing to support the separatist movement.
In a statement, the European Commission— the executive arm of the bloc — called for “unity and stability,” but it showed no sign that it would reverse its position and intervene on behalf of supporters of independence.

The commission described the dispute as “an internal matter for Spain,” and reiterated its warning that an independent Catalonia would not be part of the European Union.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/...a-spain-independence-referendum.html?referer=
 
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Spanish police forces are on a roll, they should use the momentum and take over Portugal while they are at it.
 
once again, cowardice and inaction by the EU leadership.

I'd say it's self-serving. Other European countries (with the sole exception of Scotland) have very little to gain siding with a province adamant on secession, illegally. And Spain knew that when they send in the guardia.
 
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Analysis: Spanish police attacks— mistake or part of a plan?
By Gregory Katz | AP October 2, 2017

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Spain’s image on the world stage has been tarnished by the worldwide broadcast of images showing its police attacking would-be voters in Catalonia, and those tactics have not slowed the Catalan government’s march toward independence.

So the question lingers: Why, in the age of the smartphone, would Spain use force this way in order to quash a disputed independence referendum? Why not just declare the vote illegal and ignore it? Why hand the independence movement a public relations victory by using police to attack women, children and the elderly?

Analysts say the Spanish government apparently felt so threatened by the accelerating independence movement that it believed a show of force was needed to make it abundantly clear that even harsher tactics would be used if needed to keep Spain intact. The government was also confident, apparently with reason, that European Union leaders would not condemn the tactics Spain used to help prevent more splintering of the 28-nation bloc.

Chatham House director Robin Niblett said the Spanish government felt it had to act despite the consequences because it could not let the vote, suspended by the Constitutional Court, proceed.

“I’m sure they expected it to get ugly,” he said. “I’m sure they knew there was a real risk of it looking like democracy was being suppressed. But they know they have support in the rest of Spain, so the political risk domestically was worth taking.”

He conceded the cost was high because of the disturbing images that emerged.

“They didn’t want shots of police pulling women by the hair,” he said. “That’s stupid, that’s really frustrating to them. In a way that becomes the story.”

Spain’s leaders have not backpedaled or apologized for the use of force, an indication they are willing to take whatever international opprobrium comes their way. In fact, criticism from Europe’s leaders has been relatively light, coming mostly from opposition figures.

Andrew Dowling, a specialist in Catalan history at Cardiff University in Wales, said “any government in the world” would have taken similar action if under direct threat.

“The Spanish government felt it had to stop the vote because they knew within 48 hours the Catalan Parliament would declare independence and then there is a really big crisis,” he said. “They knew a ‘yes’ vote in favor of independence was guaranteed because most ‘no’ voters weren’t going to participate. I think the very strong policing was used to send a message.”

The Spanish government, he said, was counting on the Catalan police to remove people from voting places, but the regional officers “just stood by with their arms folded.” So authorities sent in Spanish riot police, who had been brought in on ships for just such a possibility.

Dowling believes some police officers had been bored by their long confinement on the ships in the Barcelona port and took out their frustration on the public.

“Some of the violence was pretty shocking, unrestrained, and it didn’t take into account age or gender,” he said. “In the age of the iPhone, it gives vivid testimony.”

The global broadcasting of the images, and the front-page display of the photos, may have strengthened the hand of independence movement leaders in their quest for international support, even if there is little appetite for breaking up a major European state at a time of rising instability in many parts of the world.

There is also strong anecdotal evidence, based in part on Associated Press interviews, that some who had planned to sit the referendum out, or to vote to remain part of Spain, instead voted for secession because of anger about police tactics.

Elisa Arouca said she was waiting to vote outside a Barcelona school when police yanked her and other prospective voters out of the way, smashed open the school door, and seized the ballot boxes inside.

“I was always against independence, but what the Spanish state is doing made me change my mind,” she said before seeking out another place to vote — this time in favor of independence.

By this yardstick, the Spanish government’s approach was not successful.

“They increased the independence vote by sending the police in,” said Nafees Hamid, a research fellow at Artis International who has written extensively about Catalonia. “It definitely hurt them. If the independence movement was trying to malign the image of the Madrid government, they accomplished that goal. There were some who wanted just that, that was their strategy, and it really paid off.”

He does not believe, however, that the police violence was widespread. He said he spent voting day touring Barcelona and did not witness any abuses.

“I saw police everywhere,” he said. “They were not attacking buildings or stopping people from voting. It could be that the vast majority of thousands of police did not intervene, but there were some that did. It could be more at the level of individual police captains.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...0fc13e-a7a3-11e7-9a98-07140d2eed02_story.html
 
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Catalan crisis: More populism than separatism?

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Emotions are running high in Catalonia today. Of course they are.

"The Spanish government is like an abusive husband," one activist raged at me today. "He says he loves you, that he can't live without you. Then, he beats you to stop you from leaving."

Sunday's scenes during the Catalan referendum were awful and played over and over again across social media.

Barca football idol and Catalan-born Gerard Pique wept openly on Spanish television when questioned about the violence.

But it would be wrong to interpret the anger and anguish so palpable in Catalonia right now as an expression of political unity.

Catalans are as divided as ever on the question of independence.

Anti-establishment backlash

What unites them today is a seething fury and resentment at the heavy-handedness of the Spanish government, represented by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, with what Catalans perceive as his Madrid-centric arrogance, brutishness and disregard for the rights of individuals.

This is far less about separatism than populism. Anti-establishment, nationalist sentiment a la Catalana.

While the majority of Catalans say they don't actually want to leave Spain, they demand the right to choose. Legally and with dignity, in contrast to the chaos and intimidation on show at the weekend.

They are frustrated that their region pays more in taxes to Madrid than it gets back in investment, such as new infrastructure.

They are irritated that pledges of increased autonomy for Catalonia (already one of Europe's most autonomous regions) were then watered down, and still smarting that ordinary people in Catalonia - as across Spain - suffered so much in the 2008 economic crisis, while their tax contributions were used to bail out the banks.

To give you an idea - Catalonia is one of Spain's wealthiest regions. Youth unemployment is far lower here than across the rest of Spain. But it's still a shocking 35%.

Catalans want change, but that does not amount to a common call for independence.

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So what now?

Before this weekend, Mariano Rajoy - nicknamed by opponents as "The Robot", as he could never be accused of having the common touch - had all the cards:
  • the legal argument (Spain's constitutional court deemed this weekend's referendum illegal)
  • public opinion (most Spaniards opposed the vote)
  • EU support
  • and a fractious, disunited front (until this weekend) of Catalan independence parties.
But he's thrown those cards away.

He and the Catalan President, Carles Puigdemont, have walked if not arm-in-arm then at least back-to-back, duel-like, to the cliff's edge.

Diverting attention

A cynic might point out that both men benefit personally from this constitutional crisis - arguably Spain's most severe in the 40 years since the transition to democracy.

Mr Rajoy heads a minority government, so short of support that it recently withdrew plans for the 2018 budget, for fear it wouldn't make it through the Spanish parliament. Meanwhile, Mr Puigdemont presides over one of the largest regional debts in Spain.

Both men are tainted by allegations of corruption, which swirl persistently around their governments.

The Catalan question is a very public distraction from unwelcome financial questions.

Both men score political points from standing their ground now, as opinions in Catalonia and across Spain harden.

As for the EU, some analysts have painted a picture of Eurocrats quaking in their blue and yellow boots. Refusing to condemn Sunday's violence, as they fear the flames of separatism will now spread from Catalonia to Corsica, northern Italy, Flanders and beyond.

But that was the early 2000s, when Basque separatist violence raged too.

Now Basque separatists support Prime Minister Rajoy in the Spanish parliament. Regional separatism is not a 2017 problem for the EU. Populism is.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41475770
 
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A look at what might happen if Catalonia goes it alone
By Ciaran Giles | AP October 2 at 3:02 PM

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MADRID — The northeastern region of Catalonia, one of Spain’s autonomous regions, is threatening to declare its independence from Spain following a disputed referendum that, it says, gave it a mandate to break away.

Spain, which declared the referendum illegal and invalid, says it will do all to maintain the country’s unity and keep hold of the region of 7.5 million people centered around the port city of Barcelona.

The two would seem to be about to enter uncharted waters. Here’s a look at how Spain got to this point and what may happen next.

DECLARING INDEPENDENCE

Catalan regional President Carles Puigdemont says he will keep his pledge to declare independence unilaterally following a claimed win for the “Yes” side in Sunday’s disputed referendum.

The pro-independence leader says that under a Catalan law a win with more than 50 percent of “Yes” votes triggers a declaration of independence within 48 hours of the vote, regardless of the fact that the vote was held in extremely precarious circumstances and that turnout — even if true —was less than half of the electorate. That law was suspended by Spain’s Constitutional Court, but Puigdemont and his government seem set to ignore this.

The independence declaration could happen as early as Wednesday or Thursday when the regional parliament meets.

WOULD CATALONIA BE RECOGNIZED AS A SEPARATE COUNTRY?

So far no country or international body has expressed any support for the Catalan government*s independence drive, so any declaration of independence is likely to be rejected, at the beginning at least. The European Union is standing solidly behind Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy and says Catalonia would be expelled from the bloc and the shared euro currency.

Economically it is impossible to predict if it could survive. Catalonia has an annual gross domestic product of about 215 billion euros ($257 billion) — the largest of the Spanish regions and greater than Greece’s — but many of its goods are supplied by the Spanish state.

WHAT IMMEDIATE CHANGES MIGHT BE EXPECTED?

Besides the removal of Spanish flags from official buildings, it*s hard to see what else Catalan authorities could do. The feeling is that the declaration would be a symbolic one. Catalonia does not have security forces sufficient to set up borders and key areas such as taxes, foreign affairs, defense, ports, airports and trains are in the hands of the Spanish government in Madrid. Spain also recently took virtually full control of Catalonia’s spending.

SPAIN’S OPTIONS

Spain has two main options and both would be painful. The constitution’s Article 155 allows the government to suspend, totally or partially, any region’ self-government if it disobeys its constitutional obligations or attacks the general interests of Spain. Catalonia would first be warned and if it didn’t rectify, the measures decided upon would be put to the Senate for approval, a simple matter for Rajoy as his party has a majority.

Possible measures could include placing the region’s police under Spanish control. If necessary, Spanish police could enforce the measures.

The other, more extreme alternative would be to declare a state of siege, should Spain’s sovereignty be considered under attack — which a declaration of independence might constitute — and this could allow for the suspension of civil rights and imposition of martial law. It would need to be debated and approved by the lower house of parliament, a difficult matter as Rajoy lacks a majority there.

Neither option is likely to happen overnight.

“The situation is really serious in Spain now,” said constitutional law professor Fernando Simon of Spain’s University of Navarra, who said Catalonia was basically already in a state of rebellion. He said either option would mean Spain would enter unknown territory.

A COMPROMISE

Given the current state of affairs this is the most desirable for all, but with neither side backing down, the least likely to happen.

Both sides say they are open to dialogue but both put up conditions unacceptable to the other. Rajoy had insisted he couldn’t discuss a referendum unless the constitution was changed, and invited Catalonia to work on changing it. The Catalan government said its right to self-determination must be respected first before talks could proceed. Catalonia now wants the EU to intervene, an unlikely prospect, and calls for international mediation, something Spain is not likely to agree to.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...a01f5e-a7a4-11e7-9a98-07140d2eed02_story.html
 
Pretty surprised by how little attention this is getting.
 
People in America either don’t know this is happening, or fail to grasp the significance.

The problem is they are in fact insignificant in the grand scheme of thing.

I mean, even the Europeans living right next door clearly don't give a shit about Catalonia, and they have long consider this secession squabble to be no more than an annoying internal Spanish issue.
 
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