International Catalonia's Rebellion: 170,000 Spaniards in Madrid March Against Amnesty Plan for Catalan Secessionists

Arkain2K

Arkain2K

Si vis pacem, para bellum
@Steel
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
33,420
Reaction score
5,681


Thread Index:


Huge crowds gather in Barcelona as Spanish police raid Catalonia government offices
By David Sim | September 20, 2017

a5fca33a3cdbb0905d806a6437404ef9

Spain has cancelled all time off for police officers in Catalonia as tensions rise ahead of a planned referendum on the region's independence. Huge angry crowds have gathered in Barcelona after Spanish police raided local government offices and arrested several officials.

f68a5d39eae9ac032b5b614fc9e3d0ac

Police efforts to stop the 1 October vote on splitting from Spain have intensified in recent days as the region shows no signs of halting the referendum which the central government says is illegal. The National Catalan Assembly — the driving force behind the push for independence — called for supporters to rally peacefully outside local government offices on the corner of Rambla de Catalunya and Gran Via.

cb18cbbfa937eeb382a83f664e7bc376

State police entered offices of the Catalan region's economy, interior, foreign affairs, welfare, telecommunications and tax departments. La Vanguardia newspaper said a dozen high-ranking local officials were arrested, including junior economy minister Josep Maria Jove, who was stopped by police while driving his daughter to school.

f0b30f4e0939a0fe8a41e68c58febb1c

Pro-independence supporters scuffled with Spanish Civil Guard officers escorting a government official out of the headquarters of the region's department of foreign affairs in Barcelon. Xavier Puig, the IT manager in the department, was one of at least 12 officials arrested in police raids. The protesters tried to block a police vehicle and some scuffles ensued. There were no reports of arrests or injuries.

e9ea2bc33d080843440ee1411ed41baf

Spain's central government says the referendum goes against the country's 1978 constitution which states Spain is indivisible. Police, acting under court orders, have stepped up raids on printers, newspaper offices and private delivery companies in recent days in a search for campaign literature, instruction manuals for manning voting stations and ballot boxes.

abd5c311c7b268e36fe559f7aa8b6b84

Police seized nearly 10 million ballot papers that Catalan regional authorities planned to use in the independence referendum. A ministry statement said police also confiscated polling station signs and documents for voting officials in a raid on a warehouse in a small town outside Barcelona.

8eae990c68e92e9db6a2bbe932cb2e58

The fiercely pro-independence leader of Catalonia, Carles Puigdemont, called an emergency meeting of his Cabinet. He said Spain is showing a "totalitarian attitude" with the arrests of Catalan officials and civil servants. He vowed Catalonia will go ahead with the independence referendum despite legal warnings not to do so.

Barcelona Football Club put out a statement saying it condemns anyone trying to halt Catalonia's plan to hold the referendum. The club said it "will continue to support the will of the majority of Catalan people, and will do so in a civil, peaceful, and exemplary way."

Spain's Interior Ministry says all time off and holiday will be suspended for Civil Guard and National Police officers assigned to ensure that the Constitutional Court's halting of Catalonia's planned independence referendum is heeded. A ministry statement said the measure will run initially from Wednesday until 5 October – four days after the planned referendum.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/huge-crowds-gather-barcelona-spanish-121032659.html
 
Last edited:
Best thing to happen for independence has been the actions of Spanish state the last few days. We will have a independent Catalonia, Basque Country and a united Ireland in our lifetime. Then we get out our shovels and make sure Maggie and Franco are turning in their graves
 
Here’s how bad economically a Spain-Catalonia split could really be

104722702-GettyImages-850154578.1910x1000.jpg

A split between Spain and Catalonia would cause a major political shake-up in the country but would also have significant consequences for the economy of both sides, experts have told CNBC.

Voters in the prosperous Spanish region are set to be asked next month to choose if they want to secede from Spain following a decree signed on September 7. "Catalonia belongs to this world that looks forward, and that's why it will decide its own future on the 1st of October," Carles Puigdemont, the president of the Catalonia region, said defiantly earlier this month.

Pro-independence lawmakers hope the northeastern region will gain complete political and economic autonomy from Spain despite the referendum putting Catalonia in open defiance of central authorities in Madrid. Spanish police are reported to have raided several departments of Catalonia's regional government this week as tensions rise over the banned independence referendum.

As the most prosperous of Spain's 17 regions, Catalonia houses roughly 19 percent of Spain's economy, benefiting from tourism, exports, manufacturing, and industry.

Catalonia has talked of separation from Spain since the founding of Estat Català – a political movement which began in 1922 - and throughout the 36-year dictatorship of Franco, however, the resurgence of the pro-secession movement over the past few years is due primarily to Spain's economic woes, a 2010 constitutional court decision to lessen Catalonia's sovereignty, and a distrust of Madrid or the centralized Spanish government.

Amid discussions of Scotland's own relationship to the European Union after Brexit, questions have arisen on the economic implications of a Catalonia-Spain split. Here, CNBC investigates the implications if voters do back secession in the referendum.

Immediate impacts of the separation

The short-term outcomes of separation would be negative for both parties, according to Alain Cuenca, an economics professor at the University of Zaragoza in Spain.

"The establishment of a border would result in a loss of jobs, income and wealth for everybody, whether they live in Catalonia or in the rest of Spain," Cuenca told CNBC via email.

"Those losses would be provoked by the obstacles to trade, by financial problems, by the spending needs of the new state."

While Catalans only account for about 16 percent of the Spanish population, Catalonia makes a hefty contribution to the overall Spanish economy, making 223.6 billion euros ($262.96 billion) a year, according to the regional government.

Using figures from official European and Catalonian organizations, Business Insider claimed earlier this year that the region would quickly gain about 16 billion euros yearly in the case of a split, as they would no longer have to pay taxes to Spain. This would then result in a loss of about 2 percent to the Spanish GDP (gross domestic product) yearly.

Picture1.png


At the same time, Catalonia could take a potential hit, as 35.5 percent of Catalan exports are to the Spanish market. Catalonia would also have pay to create new state structures (embassies, central banks, etc.) which carry a large price tag.

This week, Spanish Economy Minister Luis de Guindos claimed that Catalonia could see its economy shrink by 25 to 30 percent and its unemployment double if it splits to form a separate state.

Regardless, the fate of both nations would ultimately come down to the decisions made in post-separation negotiations on debt and the European Union.

The debt issue

spain.png


Spain's national public debt in 2016 was priced at roughly $1.18 trillion, according to central bank statistics. Meanwhile, Catalonia has amassed one of the largest public debts of Spain's regions, at roughly 72.2 billion euros ($86.9 billion) in 2016. Around 6 billion euros of this is for long-term securities that have been issued and the rest being various loans from different institutions.

Therefore, Catalonia accounts for 16.34 percent of Spain's debt, which is not a small price tag. This aspect, combined with the loss of Catalonia's tax revenues, would be a hit to the Spanish economy.

While many believe that the public debt of the new nation "would inevitably be assumed by the Kingdom of Spain," Cuenca explains that the direct separation impact to the debt is impossible to predict.

"The problem, again, is transition: For how many years would financial trouble last? How many jobs, how many investments, how many commercial operations would be lost during transition? No one knows precisely," Cuenca said.

The success of Catalonia is determined heavily on whether or not they would assume a percentage of the Spanish debt and if they would be required to pay off their own debt. Either situation could prove to be detrimental to a new Catalan nation and would damage the potential for economic expansion.

The European Union

"In terms of trade, if Catalonia were to remain as part of the EU, nothing would change," Albert Banal-Estañol, an economics professor at Universitat Pompeu Fabra, said.

This is because Catalonia would retain its current trading partners and continue to use the euro. Catalonia, however, does not have an automatic right to membership in the European Union. This issue echoes problems that arose during Scotland's own independence referendum in 2014.

In order to become a part of the union it must receive a unanimous "yes" from EU members and that includes Spain and its allies, which are unlikely to vote for Catalonia's addition to the union. If the new nation were to be denied entrance or have difficulty joining the union, the Catalan economy would face large transition costs, as the EU accounts for roughly 65.8 percent of Catalan exports.

Furthermore, Catalonia may also face a trade boycott from the rest of Spain.

For Banal-Estañol, this is not a deal-breaker as boycotts have been circumvented by Catalonia in the past.

"It is unclear how long a boycott would last, and how strong it would be," Banal-Estañol said.

"Businesses may search for other markets, as they did in the past, during previous boycotts (as in the case of the Cava, the sparkling wine of Catalonia) or during the severe economic crisis in Spain."

Catalonia could also face economic turmoil due to its separation for the European single currency, and increased tariffs on their goods and services. Ultimately though, Catalan nationalists will pay any price for independence, regardless of the economic losses.

"The economic arguments will not be the prevailing ones in the debate over Catalonia's independence," Cuenca said. "The arguments used by both sides appeal to identity."

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/21/her...-a-spain-catalonia-split-could-really-be.html
 
Last edited:
Sounds like these guys should throw a wine mixer there.

l9hvyxmskegf59tqplc9.jpg
 
I've been following this story on Euro News the last couple weeks.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in ten days time... Thanks for posting this story @Arkain2K
 
Catalonia needs to pick a better flag than that third world African banana republic looking cloth.
 
The major issue that has not been touched in these articles is that the companies that make Catalonia in the first place are already stating they will leave. The Spanish government is approaching this very stubbornly and foolishly, but the Catalans are clearly full of shit.
 
Hope theys a get it. If desire to not be in a Spain fully with a people then let them be separate. From my understanding though i not think the separtist tendency so strong that the catalons threaten kingdom of Spain.
 
Spooked by Catalonia, EU rallies behind Madrid, but warily

r

(Reuters) - Spain's EU partners fear a mounting crisis over Catalans' latest push for independence, and their public support for Mariano Rajoy belies some disquiet that the conservative prime minister's hardline tactics might backfire.

Few foreign leaders will speak out on a domestic dispute in which government and courts in Madrid say the Catalan regional authorities in Barcelona are defying a constitutional ban on secession by preparing an independence referendum for Oct. 1.

The official European Union line is that Spanish democracy works and Spaniards should settle their affairs according to national laws. But the worsening standoff, with police arresting elected Catalan officials this week, is troubling officials and politicians abroad, who fear it may hurt Europe in various ways.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, through a spokesman, echoed that line when asked by Reuters if she had had recent contact on the matter with Rajoy, a fellow conservative. While stressing it was an "internal Spanish matter", the spokesman also recalled that Merkel had in previous years told Rajoy that Berlin had "great interest in the maintenance of stability in Spain".

Less constrained by diplomatic protocol, other Europeans are starting to speak out: "Rajoy has put a lot of oil on the fire, fuelling the independentist debate. He has made a huge mistake," Ska Keller, the German co-leader of the Greens in the European Parliament, told Reuters as she called on those who may have influence with Rajoy to intercede and calm things down.

While publicly refusing to take sides on whether a Catalan breakaway is desirable, few European leaders would welcome it.

As with the 2014 referendum in Scotland, which unlike Catalonia's vote was held with the blessing of the central government in London, countries fear encouraging separatists at home: Belgium's Flemings, Italy's Lombards and so on. There is also a broader unwillingness as Britain exits from the EU to open another Pandora's box of economic uncertainty and legal disruption.

The EU's chief executive, Jean-Claude Juncker, was irked when Catalans seized on a remarks last week that they could join the EU after independence to suggest he favored their cause.

The European Commission president said he had only reiterated the so-called "Prodi doctrine", dating back 13 years. This is that a breakaway state would have to leave the Union and could then only be let back in if it has gained independence in accordance with constitutional law in the member state it left.

Juncker also said that rich "regional traditions" should not become "elements of separatism and fragmentation of Europe".

GROWING CONCERNS

Commission officials reject suggestions they are giving Madrid a soft ride on complaints that Spain's constitution is stifling Catalan rights while the EU is now threatening to suspend Poland over the Warsaw government's plans for constitutional change.

The Commission feels constrained by EU law not to take sides in Spain. But the European Parliament, led by the European People's Party (EPP), the center-right bloc to which Rajoy, Merkel and Juncker belong, is more vocal in backing Madrid.

Antonio Tajani, the legislature's Italian conservative president, bluntly told a Catalan newspaper last week that to ignore Spain's constitution was to undermine the legal basis for the whole European Union: "Those are the rules," he said.

"This is not a tough line, this is a democratic and a legal line," the EPP's Spanish Secretary-General Antonio Lopez-Isturiz said, noting that Catalans voted for the constitution in 1978.

The EU legislature's center-left group also backs the view that Spain's constitution must be respected above all.

Nonetheless, that legal approach is causing disquiet.

"There are growing concerns in Europe about the way Rajoy is handling this," said Steven Blockmans of the Centre for European Policy Studies. "They're trying to keep him on board, but with his tactics he's fuelling the independence debate."

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1BW1OC
 
Last edited:
If the Catalans want to break away, may piss and shit be upon anyone who would tell them they can't.
 
Hope they get it, i know they will not
 
ICHEERTHEBULL said:
Best thing to happen for independence has been the actions of Spanish state the last few days. We will have a independent Catalonia, Basque Country and a united Ireland in our lifetime. Then we get out our shovels and make sure Maggie and Franco are turning in their graves
Click to expand...

But what about al andalus?
 
Oh ffs lets just break it back up to where the country was separate feudal kingdoms like it was pre unification that way the spaniards with special snowflake syndrome can be satisfied they have their own " country" now.

All the shit going on in this country and this is still the big fuckin deal.
 
Last edited:
I have no opinion of which way this should go, but Spain seems very ham-fisted in how they are dealing with the issue. That's how it seems from over here anyway.
 
Why the referendum on Catalan independence is illegal
Sep 26th 2017 | by M.R. | MADRID

6852042.jpg

The Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic.

But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.

Home to 7.5m people (16% of the total) and accounting for 19% of national GDP, Catalonia is one of Spain’s richer regions. It has formed an integral part of Spain since the 16th century (and of the Kingdom of Aragón before that), but it has its own language and culture. Until recently Catalan nationalists were content with home rule. Two things combined to increase support for independence. First, Spain’s Constitutional Tribunal rejected parts of a new statute that would have given Catalonia more autonomy.

More importantly, nationalist politicians in Barcelona succeeded in deflecting against Madrid popular anger at the austerity that followed the bursting of Spain’s housing and financial bubble in 2009. Parties campaigning for independence narrowly won a regional election in 2015. Ranging from bourgeois nationalists to anti-capitalist anarchists, they are united only by the demand for a referendum, which they call “the right to decide”. Earlier this month they rushed through the Catalan parliament one law ordering the referendum and a second requiring, if the Yes vote wins and irrespective of turnout, an immediate unilateral declaration of independence.

The Catalan government’s own pollster finds that while 70% want a referendum on the territory’s future, only 48% do if Spanish government doesn’t agree—which it emphatically does not.

According to the same poll, support for independence is slowly declining, and now stands at 41%. Mr Rajoy is relying on the courts to stop the referendum, arguing that the rule of law is fundamental to democracy. The Constitutional Tribunal has suspended the two laws. The Civil Guard arrested 14 senior people, most of them Catalan officials, involved in organising the referendum, and has seized 9.8m ballot slips.

Mr Puigdemont insists that the vote will go ahead. He is relying on popular mobilisation: tens of thousands protested against the arrests in Barcelona. But it is hard to see the vote being anything more than an unofficial consultation, similar to one held in 2014. Most supporters of “No” side won’t vote. If anything like the 2.3m alleged to have voted in 2014 were to turn out, Mr Puigdemont would claim victory.

Behind the confrontations lies a deadlock. Mr Puigdemont does not have enough popular or external support to impose independence. But Mr Rajoy’s bet that time and economic recovery would calm Catalonia has proven to be mistaken. A majority of Catalans remain unhappy with the status quo. Their discontent demands a political, rather than merely legal, response. After October 1st, a fresh regional election is likely to follow in Catalonia. And the Spanish government has accepted that it will have to discuss constitutional and other changes to try to anchor Catalonia more firmly in Spain. Dialogue is essential, but in a climate inflamed by confrontation, it will be neither quick nor easy.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17
 
Last edited:
Catalan leader presses on with banned vote on split from Spain
Julien Toyer, Sam Edwards​

r

Catalan vice president Oriol Junqueras is embraced by president of Catalonian parliament Carme Forcadell outside the Catalan region's economy ministry building during a raid by Spanish police on government offices, in Barcelona, Spain, September 20, 2017.
​
MADRID/BARCELONA (Reuters) - The Catalan regional leader on Thursday said he would press on with an Oct. 1 referendum on a split from Spain, flouting a court ban, as tens of thousands gathered for a second day on the streets of Barcelona demanding the right to vote.

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont said he had contingency plans in place to ensure the vote would go ahead, directly defying Madrid and pushing the country closer to political crisis.

Spain’s Constitutional Court banned the vote earlier this month after Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said it violated Spain’s 1978 constitution, which states the country is indivisible. Most opposition parties are also against the vote.

“All the power of the Spanish state is set up to prevent Catalans voting,” Puigdemont said in a televised address.

“We will do it because we have contingency plans in place to ensure it happens, but above all because it has the support of the immense majority of the population, who are sick of the arrogance and abuse of the People’s Party government.”

On Thursday, tens of thousands gathered outside the seat of Catalonia’s top court in Barcelona, singing and banging drums, to protest the arrests of senior officials in police raids on regional government offices on Wednesday.

Acting on court orders, police have also raided printers, newspaper offices and private delivery companies in a search for campaign literature, instruction manuals for manning voting stations and ballot boxes.

Polls show about 40 percent of Catalans support independence for the wealthy northeastern region and a majority want a referendum on the issue. Puigdemont has said there is no minimum turnout for the vote and he will declare independence within 48 hours of a “yes” result.

A central government’s spokesman said protests in Catalonia were organized by a small group and did not represent the general feeling of the people.

“In those demonstrations, you see the people who go, but you don’t see the people who don’t go, who are way more and are at home because they don’t like what’s happening,” Inigo Mendez de Vigo said.

Mendez de Vigo also said an offer for dialogue from Madrid remained on the table. Repeated attempts to open negotiations between the two camps over issues such as taxes and infrastructure investment have failed over the past five years.

Rajoy said on Wednesday the government’s actions in Catalonia were the result of legal rulings and were to ensure the rule of law. The prime minister called on Catalan leaders to cancel the vote.

Hundreds of National Police and Guardia Civil reinforcements have been brought into Barcelona and are being billeted in two ferries rented by the Spanish government and moored in the harbor. But the central government must tread a fine line in enforcing the law in the region without seeming heavy-handed.

The stand-off between Catalonia and the central government resonates beyond Spain. The country’s EU partners publicly support Rajoy but worry that his hardline tactics might backfire .

In Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, who heads the pro-independence devolved government, said she hoped the Catalan and Spanish governments could hold talks to resolve the situation.

In a referendum in 2014, Scots voted to remain within the United Kingdom.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...banned-vote-on-split-from-spain-idUSKCN1BW1O1
 
Last edited:
won't happen.
That Balkanization is stupid anyway.Just like Andorra,Liechtenstein or Luxemburg.
 
JDragon said:
The major issue that has not been touched in these articles is that the companies that make Catalonia in the first place are already stating they will leave. The Spanish government is approaching this very stubbornly and foolishly, but the Catalans are clearly full of shit.
Click to expand...
Would love to have the source of this. I work with several Catalan colleagues and have not heard this aspect of the story.

Love and support for Catalunya, I'll raise a glass to your freedom tonight.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,424
Messages
55,419,298
Members
174,765
Latest member
durbanik916

Share this page

Back
Top