Catch Wrestling United IV

[Bullitt68]

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/catch-wrestling-united-1011729/

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f40/catch-wrestling-united-ii-1408291/

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/catch-wrestling-united-iii-1890847/

Continue.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Any stories, interviews, thoughts on Rashad Evans time with Dan Severn?

 

[KJGould]

Rashad Evans did do an interview with DanTheWolfman where they talked about both learning from Severn in Michigan at different times I believe.

 

[KJGould]

Continued from the previous thread ...

Using catch successfully in MMA and ADCC type tournaments shows that it is on par with other submission grappling styles.

At the moment, I think most of the best "catch" wrestlers in the Western world (so not including Japanese wrestlers) would be smoked submission grappling wise by world class black belts (even under pinning rules). This is because these new age schools have not had the decades required to develop world class athletes.


When one of these catch guys comes out and submits a renowned black belt in ADCC or MMA, then people will consider it "back" or "legit".

This is just like how people starting paying attention to Shotokan Karate again after Machida KOd Rashad. People used to say (and some still do) that pure Shotokan does not work in "real" fighting situation, but Machida proved them wrong.


Sure, guys like Sakuraba already did this to some extent, but people forget and I dont think he had a concept of "catch" and could not promote it (like Machida did with karate).

Barnett has won several submission tournaments, including the no gi worlds. A lot will rightly argue he has BJJ training due to his coach Erik Paulson, even though Barnett hadn't put on a Gi until relatively recently.

But there's nothing wrong in cross training, BJJ do it all the time dating back to Rolls Gracie and his brothers bringing in Bob Anderson for their wrestling ('Americana' is named in honor of Anderson I believe), training and competing in Sambo (both Rickson Gracie and Rigan Machado have done so), and even Japanese Catch Wrestling (Erik Paulson recounts he showed Rickson Gracie tapes of Shooto and the leglocks they used, and Rickson being Rickson tapped out everyone in class with leglocks after watching a few minutes of tape).

BJJ has a strong lead on arts like Sambo and Catch solely based on the participation rate at the grass roots leading to more elite players at the top, if we think of the typical skill based pyramid hierarchy used in all sports. And because they've had a strong participation rate for longer, going on 20 years in modern times, they've had that time to go through Trial and Error (or Trial and Improvement) at multiple stages in its modern history.

So while success at high level submission grappling competitions -- a platform that's meant to be a 'neutral' ground for grappling arts, despite a heavy emphasis on BJJ style scoring -- can help, it'll be met with unfair derision by a lot who will say "Yeah, but they trained in BJJ" while ignoring or oblivious to the irony of their own cross training that has made them better wrestlers and leglock guys themselves. And a lot do not like to have this pointed out to them.

Plus there still needs to be a unique application and sport outside of the 'neutral' sub grappling and MMA proving grounds. Catch needs its own amateur tournament sport governed by the equivalent of the IJF or IBJJF.

Because Sambo in America had been fragmented for a while, Stephen Koepfer formed the American Sambo Association which was one of many competing oversights, and ended up being the defacto organisation after the other ones imploded. I've been meaning to ask him about what goes into the ASA and how its managed to last this long through the bickering and politics that no doubt they've gone through. I'm pretty sure it was also important for them to have roots with the Russian federation though too.

There are some wheels in motion to work with USA Wrestling to get Catch tournaments under their banner, though due to red tape and other bureaucratic stuff they would want to call it 'Modified Folkstyle' for the time being. I'm offering input with some American guys as to what rules should be submitted to them, looking at the previous Catch As Catch Can and Amateur Athletic Union rules of the past for guidance. I'll let you know how that goes.

 

[catchwrestling]

Continued from the previous thread ...



Barnett has won several submission tournaments, including the no gi worlds. A lot will rightly argue he has BJJ training due to his coach Erik Paulson, even though Barnett hadn't put on a Gi until relatively recently.

But there's nothing wrong in cross training, BJJ do it all the time dating back to Rolls Gracie and his brothers bringing in Bob Anderson for their wrestling ('Americana' is named in honor of Anderson I believe), training and competing in Sambo (both Rickson Gracie and Rigan Machado have done so), and even Japanese Catch Wrestling (Erik Paulson recounts he showed Rickson Gracie tapes of Shooto and the leglocks they used, and Rickson being Rickson tapped out everyone in class with leglocks after watching a few minutes of tape).

BJJ has a strong lead on arts like Sambo and Catch solely based on the participation rate at the grass roots leading to more elite players at the top, if we think of the typical skill based pyramid hierarchy used in all sports. And because they've had a strong participation rate for longer, going on 20 years in modern times, they've had that time to go through Trial and Error (or Trial and Improvement) at multiple stages in its modern history.

So while success at high level submission grappling competitions -- a platform that's meant to be a 'neutral' ground for grappling arts, despite a heavy emphasis on BJJ style scoring -- can help, it'll be met with unfair derision by a lot who will say "Yeah, but they trained in BJJ" while ignoring or oblivious to the irony of their own cross training that has made them better wrestlers and leglock guys themselves. And a lot do not like to have this pointed out to them.

Plus there still needs to be a unique application and sport outside of the 'neutral' sub grappling and MMA proving grounds. Catch needs its own amateur tournament sport governed by the equivalent of the IJF or IBJJF.

Because Sambo in America had been fragmented for a while, Stephen Koepfer formed the American Sambo Association which was one of many competing oversights, and ended up being the defacto organisation after the other ones imploded. I've been meaning to ask him about what goes into the ASA and how its managed to last this long through the bickering and politics that no doubt they've gone through. I'm pretty sure it was also important for them to have roots with the Russian federation though too.

There are some wheels in motion to work with USA Wrestling to get Catch tournaments under their banner, though due to red tape and other bureaucratic stuff they would want to call it 'Modified Folkstyle' for the time being. I'm offering input with some American guys as to what rules should be submitted to them, looking at the previous Catch As Catch Can and Amateur Athletic Union rules of the past for guidance. I'll let you know how that goes.

That last paragraph really excites me,I hope they call it CACC.Good luck with that endeaver KJ!!!!

 

[KJGould]

Just as I say this it looks like it hit a brick wall.

 

[Goat Meal]

Something like Combat Wrestling in the Olympics would be really fun.

My perfect rule set for this would be something like:

- No guard pulling.
- Pinning from side control only and only after a long duration (45 secs or 60 secs).
- Submission ends the match.
- All holds/chokes allowed other than small joint manipulation.
- Stalling in guard not allowed.
- Once engaged on the ground, the guy on top cannot disengage. This keeps the top guy from just racking up points via takedowns and avoiding the ground game all together.

Probably some others, too. But those would be nice.

 

[KJGould]

When you say no disengaging, does that include breaking guard to stand and look for a pass? Or just completely back tracking to attempt a stand up?

Also I think if it's a legit pinning combination it's valid. A lot of cradles aren't finished form side control, and some nelson combinations don't finish in side control either. I also think 45 to 60 seconds is too long! haha

 

[Goat Meal]

When you say no disengaging, does that include breaking guard to stand and look for a pass? Or just completely back tracking to attempt a stand up?

Yeah, the latter. It makes it super easy for straight wrestlers to win just by taking down their opponent, backing away, scoring another takedown, etc. There's already a sport for that.

Also I think if it's a legit pinning combination it's valid. A lot of cradles aren't finished form side control, and some nelson combinations don't finish in side control either. I also think 45 to 60 seconds is too long! haha

Thirty seconds might be good then. Whatever a pin in Judo is would be fine.

And the match continues after a pin... That way the person in top side control is more apt to look for submissions versus pins.

Pinning from top half guard is actually fine with me too because the person on bottom should be on their side anyway. If they're being lazy and staying flat on their back they deserve to have it count against them.

 

[Goat Meal]

And obviously pinning from mount.

 

[KJGould]

I think Judo is 20 seconds.

 

[Saenchai]

I think Judo is 20 seconds.

Yes it is.

 

[seatea]

I think Judo is 20 seconds.

Yes it is.

25 seconds for the ippon.

 

[KJGould]

What are people's thoughts on Out Of Bounds / Push Outs?

BJJ and most sub grappling competitors are dragged back to the center of the mat if they get too close or go out of bounds while working on the mat, though if both are standing when they go out it's a neutral reset.

Freestyle scores the push out but I'm not fond of scoring it. I think if you're in the process of a takedown and you get it, that scores providing it was initiated while inside the boundary.

If you're working on the mat and the guy on bottom tries to escape and does so by going out of bounds, I think some old folkstyle rules had a reset with the escapee in defensive / turtle, and work had to be done from there rather than a neutral touch to try and get it standing again, which I like but only makes sense if a pin fall is present in the rules. Then again I don't think an escape to out of bounds should reset to being in traditional guard though.

I wouldn't mind points for throws, like the 1-3-5 format, but a 5 point doesn't end a match like it does in Freestyle. Also no points for throws from par terre, like a gutwrench. 1 point for any takedown that results in no back and shoulder exposure, 3 points for any takedown that results in controlled back and shoulder exposure, and 5 points for high amplitude throws that result in back and shoulder impact. However, promote the 'no disengaging' rule to encourage a finish on the mat.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Freestyle scores the push out but I'm not fond of scoring it. I think if you're in the process of a takedown and you get it, that scores providing it was initiated while inside the boundary.

I don't like it from a safety issue. I think it promotes continued out of bounds grappling which is dangerous to the two grappling and also other competitors. This is just the promoter in me thinking about risk/reward.

 

[brollikk]

Guys... what is your opinion on Barnett vs Cormier? (sorry if this has been discussed already)

Or more specifically ultra high level wrestlers in MMA who had just enough training to defend against submissions.

Stylistically, would that be the worst match up for someone who comes from a catch wrestling background? (Assuming that the pure wrestler is better on the feet than the catch wrestler, but less versed in submission offense due to lack of time)

 

[ChainFlow]

Guys... what is your opinion on Barnett vs Cormier? (sorry if this has been discussed already)

Or more specifically ultra high level wrestlers in MMA who had just enough training to defend against submissions.

Stylistically, would that be the worst match up for someone who comes from a catch wrestling background? (Assuming that the pure wrestler is better on the feet than the catch wrestler, but less versed in submission offense due to lack of time)

I would tend to agree with this. It would also make sense of why all the old school guys so heavily emphasized the basic takedowns and positioning over the subs - because they are ultimately more important.

(But I'm not a real catch wrestler)

Now if you take a catch wrestler and make him either a good boxer too the picture becomes more fuzzy. Or if you give him an aggressive guard game or leg lock-from-the-bottom game.

 

[KJGould]

Both Cormier and Barnett breaking their hands early in the fight didn't help either, with Barnett breaking his in the first 30 seconds. Coincidentally (or not) Zuffa had just started using a new type of glove, possibly because they put in a better bid for a new contract. Unfortunately putting the highest bid in doesn't mean you get the best quality, and I've noticed a ton of hands breaking since the switch in design.

It was either on the recent Sherdog Rewind, or it was on an episode of No Holds Barred with Eddie Goldman, but Billy Robinson stated that while Josh Barnett and Erik Paulson were great grapplers with 'hearts of lions', Robinson felt they still didn't understand the basics of Catch Wrestling in his opinion. I'll have to re-listen and transcribe because he made an interesting criticism while still trying to remain respectful.

 

[Calibur]

It was either on the recent Sherdog Rewind, or it was on an episode of No Holds Barred with Eddie Goldman, but Billy Robinson stated that while Josh Barnett and Erik Paulson were great grapplers with 'hearts of lions', Robinson felt they still didn't understand the basics of Catch Wrestling in his opinion. I'll have to re-listen and transcribe because he made an interesting criticism while still trying to remain respectful.

That statement is one of the biggest problems I have with catch.

How is someone even supposed to get involved in it when the biggest representitives in the modern era are accused of not having basics.

No one can even quantify what those basics are or who can teach them.

In the last thread their we're accusations of fraud, and the defense was that it was mostly hearsay. From the outside looking in, the entire art seems built on hearsay.

This doesn't seem to be an issue in a (IMO) fringe grappling art like sambo.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

What that guy said ^

I did a seminar with Roy Wood and he didn't do any banging on about who knew real catch or was a 'hooker' or any of that. He just said you wrestle the guy down like this and then do this horrible neck crank because chokes are ungentlemanly. It was just some more wrestling moves, not some kind of secret key to jedi knighthood.